Talk:Pay the Butler

Gender

I changed the "gelding" in the infobox to "stallion" in light of the section lower in the article discussing his breeding career. Geldings can't exactly breed... 😉 I'm guessing that was an error. White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 19:32, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Inclusion of a mention of Obey Your Master

Pay the Butler's race and subsequent victory at the Japan Cup is depicted in the manga and anime Umamusume: Cinderella Gray, a series that chronicles the racing career of Oguri Cap through anthropomorphized versions of the racehorses he raced against in the late 1980s and early 1990s. While often the series directly uses the real life names of the racehorses, Pay the Butler's stand-in was named Obey Your Master due to permission issues. The series directly replicates several of the Cup's events through this character, such as McCarron's studying of previous tapes of Tokyo Racecourse and Pay the Butler's last-minute dart away from Tamamo Cross in the race's homestretch.

Recently this paragraph in Pay the Butler's Legacy section has been attempted to be removed under the following reason. "This horse has no affiliation with the fictional adaptation, regardless of name change. To preserve integrity of page and legacy of horse, this article has been removed. Adaptation inclusion is not appropriate for this page, as the owner/breeder does not receive any royalties from franchise. Please respect this omission."

I object very strongly to this parapgraph being removed, as this is not rationale used to determine Wikipedia article content. It is irrelevant whether Pay the Butler's last owners are formally affiliated with the Umamusume series or not. They do not need to make money off a project for PtB to be depicted, and the sources given for the paragraph clearly state that Obey Your Master is a stand-in for PtB; ザテレビジョン in particular goes into heavy description about how closely the events of the show mirror the real-life Japan Cup. This is not a reason to exclude sourced in formation. In other featured articles on horses, media appearances with much weaker connections are kept - Meadow Stable has never received any money for the Bojack Horseman version of Secretariat, but that's on his page and is a in-name only connection at best.

The relevant questions for an inclusion of something is if it is supported by reliable sources and whether it is sufficiently notable. Obey Your Master is a long-time supporting character of the Cinderella Gray show (and receives multiple merch), and considering Pay the Butler is a one-time G1 winner from 40 years ago he is unlikely going to be featured else in the future to the same extent. ザテレビジョン directly ties OYM and PtB's together and shows how people unaware of PtB's story can learn about him and the 1988 Japan Cup. I would say this both passes sourcing and notability.

I would also muse, more informally, that the vast majority of visitors for this page are going to be Umamusume fans since let's face it, most people are unlikely to stumble across a one-time G1 winner from 40 years ago without this sort of connection. It's info that will eventually get re-added.

If there are policy-based concerns regarding original research, or on those lines, please identify them so they can be discussed. Otherwise, personal views regarding the appropriateness of the association should not override reliably sourced content. I would appreciate discussion here before further edit wars.

Coutesy ping to @Twicecut: and @Adakiko:. Since this page is fairly niche, I have let the JP horse taskforce team know about this conversation as well.

RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 19:21, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

Agree with above. I was shutting down, undid the edit, then realized I did not have time to review it, so restored. Thanks for restoring. Should Category:Horse racing in anime and manga be added? Umamusume: Cinderella Gray IMO is rather silly, girls with horse tails and ears running races then performing in bands. Apparently very popular in Japan for girls who dress up and visit retired racehorses. Those horses are well taken care of and keeps them out of the slaughter houses. Adakiko (talk) 20:23, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

It's certainly a unique series even by anime standards! Like you said, I think the impact it's had is quite positive overall, especially for the racehorses themselves... Although who knows how much the band segments help with any of that. It's certainly extremely popular either way.

For categories, I'll admit I'm no expert in those. I think it would be fine to do so? I wouldn't remove it if it were added at least. If I had to guess there's probably quite a few Japanese horses that can be added as well if their anime counterparts are leads in the show(s). RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 21:32, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

(Posting here as well)

First, I would like to thank you for the contributions on this horse's page and the sources provided. I can see that you've provided credible information on his page throughout the recent history. The only edits that are of issue are the ones relating to the fictional character adaptation, and I would like to provide clarification on the reasoning of the omission:

In order to honor the legacy of the horse and his owners/breeders/trainer(s)/jockey(s) and to preserve the integrity of the page, all unofficial affiliations/representations of the horse in pop culture should be removed. Cygames does not hold rights to this horse's likeness, even though the name was changed. They also do not hold rights to any of the other horses depicted with alternative names until proven otherwise. These names were changed to avoid conflict/interfering with the real horses legacies, which includes the discouragement of edits on these horses' pages. There are still many people who may view these pages who are not here because of pop culture. If permission to use the horse's likeness and name cannot be obtained, we must assume by default that owners/breeders/trainer(s)/jockey(s) do not want affiliation with Uma Musume.

The wikipages of racehorses are meant to provide information on the horses in a professional manner, without influence of pop culture unless officially affiliated. This helps keep clutter off of the pages that do not provide substantial or appropriate contribution. The entry on Secretariat's page regarding BoJack Horseman should also be removed, as it is unsubstantiated.

Please note, there is an ongoing issue of pop culture-influenced edits on racehorses that have no reasonable affiliation with Cygames, and many horse race enthusiasts do not take kindly to these edits as the franchise is controversial to some. Many horse owners do not want their horses depicted by anime girl characters, and such depictions may be offensive or disrespectful.

I mean no disrespect by these edits. I have been in the horse industry for over 12 years, and owners take great pride in their horses. These omissions are to maintain the pages and to honor the horses and their respected parties.

Please let me know if you have any questions. I will hold off on the edit so we can further discuss and work something out. Twicecut (talk) 22:36, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

Forgot to add ping: @RandomEditsForWhenIRemember @Adakiko Twicecut (talk) 22:37, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

"Likeness"? I don't think Pay the Butler looked anything like Obey Your Master. This is Wikipedia, not Cygames. If you have a problem with Cygames, please interact with them. The content on the Wiki article is validly sourced, and there is no policy that I know of that would preclude the inclusion of the mention of Umamusume: Cinderella Gray.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a "professional" horse racing journal. Nor is it a memorial to horses, people, etc. See wp:NOTMEMORIAL. Wikipedia is not about "honoring legacy". Content does not need to meet "professional" standards, just Wikipedia wp:policy. I may be wrong, if so, please cite wp:policy? Whether or not horse owners have an issue with association of their horse with whatever is not a concern here. Wikipedia is warts and all.

BTW: If you have an issue with BoJack being on Secretariat's page, discuss on that talk page. It is off topic to discuss it here. Adakiko (talk) 09:02, 19 June 2026 (UTC)

I agree with Adakiko. This page cannot and should not act only as an owner approved memorial as per WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:NOTCENSORED; not withstanding the fact that we do not have reliable sources on a long-dissolved Hayaka Farms' views of the depiction, and should not assume automatically they don't approve. I cannot talk for other horse pages that also include Umamusume or other show references, but the use of Obey Your Master to show Pay the Butler's time in Japan is reliably sourced and very relevant to the horse to mention in his article. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 11:10, 19 June 2026 (UTC)

All references and inclusion are appropriate for the wiki or fan page of the fictional character, but not the wiki of the actual horse. As for the sources, they are from anime news articles, which are not journals nor reliable sources. Please see WP:RELIABILITY. These sources briefly mention the basis for the characters, which is not substantial. For the Bojack example, I was replying to the initial mention of Secretariat's article and why it is also not appropriate. The correlation is simply not strong enough to have the adaptation included in this article. The likeness is used by the adaptation without any official basis, and a name change was placed by the adapting party to avoid such conflict. Even the date of when the race takes place in the adaptation was purposely left out in the adaptation. For example, it would not be appropriate to edit Secretariat's page if My Little Pony based one of their characters and episodes off of his win with a changed name. There are many instances in which one character is based off of a real life counterpart without official affiliation, with changed names. If Wikipedia included all of these on pages of the inspiring party, it would be cluttered, confusing and unprofessional.

The inclusion of UmaMusume on other racehorse's pages can stand, as Cygames was given rights to use these names and the correlation has more substantial relevance. Inclusion on Pay The Butler's page should continue to be omitted. (talk) 12:06, 19 June 2026 (UTC) Twicecut (talk) 12:05, 19 June 2026 (UTC)

we must assume by default Please see wp:NOR. We can not assume on Wikipedia. Please cite an wp:RS regarding "approval" or not. Maybe they could not find nor get in touch with the owner of "Pay the Butler"? Edmund A. Gann is dead. Koichiro Hayata? Lots of reasons could be imagined why rights were not obtained.

Given the popularity of Umamusume, more people know of this horse from Cygames than from other sources. So, it should be included in the article.

It is irrelevant if Cygames was or was not given the rights. That is not a concern for Wikipedia, nor RS. This is not a wp:BLP, the sources clearly link the two and the sources are RS. There are also pages of hits on google of discussions linking the two, suggesting relevance.

thetv.jp goes into detail, so disagree on your correlation issue. thetv.jp is is used in citations over 2000 times, so unlikely to be an wp:RS issue.

The thetv.jp is probably the most detailed source. I think it should be added first and to left of the other two citations. Adakiko (talk) 01:34, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

Hi Adakiko, I think you accidentally deleted my response when replying here, I've readded it now below, which covers ザテレビジョン's reliability as part of it. I definitely don't think there's any concerns with the company in that regards.

To add to your ownership/rights point, it is worth pointing out Hayata farms went bankrupt nearly 25 years ago and Koichiro Hayata was jailed over misuse of funds a few years after, so it is equally possible to speculate Cygames simply didn't know who owned the horses' rights after this happened and erred on the side of caution, and I'm sure anyone reading this could come up with their own theories. I agree it is ultimately irrelevant to the point at hand however since permission isn't needed for Wikipedia to discuss.

I think it should be added first and to left of the other two citations. That's fair. I've gone ahead and made this change.RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 15:03, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

Reposting my response from yesterday, which appeared to have been deleted during reformatting.

For sources, the idea that we can only use journals or the like is not correct, and neither is the assertion that the main source used here is an anime-news website. ザテレビジョン is is a well established, major Japanese entertainment and television information media site in Japan and has no issues with reliability. We do not need peer-reviewed academic journals to establish that an adaptation of something exists and is notable.

The idea that an entry requires an "official basis" or corporate licensing rights from Cygames to be documented on Wikipedia is also incorrect. OYM has a name different to PtB, but we have sources pointing out OYM is an adaptation of PtB's life. Licensing agreements dictate commercial copyright, not encyclopedic verifiability. Whether a name is explicitly kept or modified due to trademark considerations does not erase the fact that the CG scenes are considered an adaptation of Pay the Butler’s 1988 Japan Cup victory by sources. If you have other sources that disagree this is not an adaption feel free to add them.

Finally, regardless of other pages, the suggestion that including this reference causes "clutter" or is "unprofessional" directly contradicts WP:POPCULTURE, especially in the paragraph here:

"When fictional characters are modeled after notable people or celebrities, they can be mentioned in the article about the person when the connection is identified in the primary source or attributed by a secondary source. Major monuments dedicated to a person or significant locations named after a subject can be included, but not, say, all 100 elementary schools named after a given head of state. "

The original paragraph was perfectly contained within a dedicated "Legacy" section and did not interfere with PtB's race record. I am happy for the paragraph to be trimmed in length if required, but we are talking about a three-sentence paragraph. It would be obscure and clutter to add any reference to Pay the Butler's victory and race footage being part of a comedy skit in 笑星救地球, but three sentences to cover a major adaption is not. Frankly, there are no other adaptations of Pay the Butler so the idea of the article getting cluttered in the future isn't an issue either.

Given that the Obey Your Master/Pay the Butler connection is verified by third-party media sources, it meets the requirements for inclusion.

RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

It appears we are unable to come to a resolution. Please review my recent comment and WP:Reliability and WP:Trivia. To reiterate, even though you have provided proper citations, this content does not constitute relevance to the horse's article in a meaningful way, nor would it be deemed reliable. These sources sponsor the anime and one briefly describe the basis for the fictional character, all using ambiguous language such as "presumably". Connection to this horse's article is drawing at straws here.

Please note, wiki pages are always subject to change, and no one editor has the right to provide or keep all of the edits. Edits are subject to criticism and removal, and trivial connections to unsubstantial media are commonly removed from pages. We must keep a neutral point of view and not push or unmeaningly advertise media. Character names and events were changed for this reason.

Pending for review. Twicecut (talk) 13:08, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

EDIT: After reviewing wiki guidelines more in depth, I would like to apologize and provide a better explanation. I understand that the owners/breeders/affiliates do not have rights to these pages themselves. However, to preserve the integrity of the page, all unsubstantiated affiliations/representations of the horse in pop culture should be removed. Please review WP:TRIVIA, particularly "In popular culture" and "Cultural references" material, second paragraph under Example and discussion. Please also review WP:RS, under Questionable sources and Sponsored Content. The sources provided are not considered reliable sources, as they all come from anime websites that advertise the franchise in which they are published. These articles are not created by credible equine historians, enthusiasts, trainers, ect. These are anime news networks. More significantly, they do not feature the horse itself or provide significant informative information outside of the anime industry. They only explain the basis for the characters, which is fine for the character pages, but not appropriate for this one. These names were changed to avoid conflict/interfering with the real horses legacies, which includes the discouragement of edits on these horses' pages.

We must continue to keep a neutral point of view. We also cannot assume that more people know this horse from pop culture, as this horse won a champion race far before the fictional adaptation.

All Google pages do not constitute reliable sources. The sources provided are not considered reliable sources. In thetv.jp is an anime article, briefly mentioning the basis of the character. The article itself states that it was "produced by the web-based television department". This is not reliable as relevance to horses. On top of this, the article is in Japanese, in which context/words may be lost in translation. The article appears to use "presumed" when referring to the reference horses. Twicecut (talk) 03:00, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

These articles are not created by credible equine historians, enthusiasts, trainers, ect. These are anime news networks. In the politest way, this doesn't matter. For a reference to an anime, to say the horse/character is an adaptation these all serviceable links. I can also point to another ref to Anime Herald, which is considered a reliable source on Wikipedia's anime portal, which also states Pay the Butler is Obey Your Master in the show. These sources are used solely for this paragraph only and nowhere else. If you disagree with thetv.jp's assessment of Obey Your Master's parallels to Pay the Butler in the show I would point you to the references in "Running in the Japan Cup" (particularly the Keiba Lab interview with Obara, ref 21 at time of writing), which show he's not making the connections up.

Ultimately in the show, which follows Oguri Cap's life as faithfully as a horse-turned-anime-girl character can, Obey Your Master is an American character with a master/servant based name that hasn't won a G1 race that preps extensively to win the first Japan Cup Oguri Cap enters, upsetting both Oguri Cap and Tamamo Cross, then fails to win a single race between then and the next Japan Cup Oguri enters, and comes third. Pay the Butler is an American horse with a master/servant based name that hadn't won a G1 race before entering the first Japan Cup Oguri Cap entered, and just to McCarron's extensive prepwork won upsetting Oguri Cap and Tamamo Cross, who then didn't win a single race before the next Japan Cup Oguri entered where Butler came third. The idea these OYM is based upon PtB in a show that is trying its best to be faithful to Oguri Cap's career is not the sort of stretch that requires veteran historians, simply because their names don't match. There are several sources deemed reliable that point to the connection, and we do not require something like BloodHorse or the Journal of Equine Science to state this.

We also cannot assume that more people know this horse from pop culture, as this horse won a champion race far before the fictional adaptation. In all honesty, we probably can quite safely. Google search trends show he was basically never searched until there were two spikes in recent years, which I believe coincide with Obey Your Master's first appearance in the manga and then the anime. The exact term "Pay the Butler" also has 260,000 results on google (107,000 if you add horse to the search), "Obey Your Master" has 320,000. PtB was a good horse, an interesting one too, but ultimately he won a single G1 nearly 40 years ago and then died almost immediately upon retiring. It is not an unfair assumption to think he's faded from the public consciousness until this show came along. I would not put such a claim in the article itself because of OR, but as someone preparing to get this page to GA or even FA status I can say that there really isn't much out there on this horse in general.

The sources provided are not considered reliable sources, as they all come from anime websites that advertise the franchise in which they are published. AnimeCorner is considered a reliable source under the wikipedia's anime section for news and interview, which this falls under . ザテレビジョン is not affiliated with CyGames. Neither, when I add it, is Anime Herald, and is also considered a reliable source. I don't understand why you think AnimeCorner & ザテレビジョン sponsor the show.

On top of this, the article is in Japanese, in which context/words may be lost in translation. The article appears to use "presumed" when referring to the reference horses. I also strongly do not approve of the idea that because a source is Japanese then it should not be used. This violates WP:NOTENG and would render pages where horses have their greatest achievement in Japan inoperable. Mairzy Doates for example, is an even more obscure horse than this, and would require her whole Japan Cup section nearly fully removed of detail. While ザテレビジョン uses the phrase "Pay the Butler is believed to be the inspiration for Obey," this is standard practise considering CyGames has not used the same name, and immediately after goes on to discuss how exactly OYM and Butler match up in their Japan Cup race to the point the connection is undeniable, encouraging readers to watch the original race footage to show how well the events of the show match up with the actual race. Anime Herald also flatly states Pay the Butler is "known as Obey Your Master in Uma Musume."

As this point I invite further comments from others, because anything more on this subject is likely to repeat myself. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 16:30, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

Addendum : As an additional source I rediscovered when looking at my potential sources for future updates to Pay the Butler's page, I would like to draw attention to the following article, written in Sankei Sports. This is one of Japan's leading sports newspapers which has had a strong focus on horse racing for decades, and is not affiliated with Cygames at all:

Suzuki, Manabu (November 9, 2025). 競馬記者が見たアニメ『ウマ娘 シンデレラグレイ』（18）「WILD JOKER」 [Anime ‘Uma Musume: Cinderella Grey’ (18) as seen by a horse racing journalist].

The piece begins with a recap of Obey Your Master's victory in the show, then contrasts it directly with the events of the 1988 Japan Cup to explain to readers how exactly Pay the Butler et al are the historical basis for the episode. Manabu Suzuki is a veteran horse reporter of over 30 years in Japan, who has both been an editor-in-chief of the long running "Weekly Gallop" horse magazine and has written a 400+ page book on Narita Brian, and co-authored other horse-related books. While I still believe the sources before are suitable enough for this paragraph, this source would more than adequately cover a source from a "credible equine historian". RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 19:50, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

References

Citations

@RandomEditsForWhenIRemember and Twicecut: FYI: There is a {{use mdy dates}} at the top of the article. There are multiple date styles. Mostly correct examples: January 2, 2026, a few 2026-01-02, at least one 2 January 2026 format. Should be fixed per MOS:DATEUNIFY. I think there is a date-fix bot that would do it on request.
Yasumichi Suzuki is the author of the thetv.jp article. He probably should be added to the citation. Cheers Adakiko (talk) 02:04, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

This one's on me I'm afraid - funnily enough, I only learnt earlier this week through another horse's page I'm working on that the "use MDY" template doesn't render all dates in the right string for everyone as I thought I did.

Anyway, this has lead to me discovering the MOSNUM_dates script, which is a fantastic tool, so thanks for pointing this out! All dates on this page should be fixed now. I've added Yasumichi Suzuki to the thetv.jp ref as well. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 11:31, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

The template is {{use MDY dates}} and {{use DMY dates}}. Some articles use 2026-06-20 format. There doesn't seem to be a template for that. US military uses 20 Jun 26 (or 2026). On Wiki it's 20 June 2026 Adakiko (talk) 20:39, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

@Twicecut: courtesy ping. Malformed notification above. (corrected, though non-functional). Adakiko (talk) 20:32, 20 June 2026 (UTC) Adakiko (talk) 20:39, 20 June 2026 (UTC)