Talk:Pastirma

History and etymology

This section is a mess. What on earth does this sentence mean, for one thing?: "Some authors claim that the medieval Central Asian nomad traditions to modern production of pastirma during the Ottomans is an extension of that older tradition." --Macrakis (talk) 00:00, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Gibberish. Go ahead and remove it. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 08:49, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

John Ash

I'm removing John Ash as a source. Considering the Ottomans didn't conquer Romaniaa - and that most expert sources in history use considerably more precision when discussing this topic (distinguishing between different territories rather than saying the Ottomans "conquered Romania") - I don't think we can use this as a history reference (quote from article: “Having inherited pastirma from the Byzantines, the Turks took it with them when they conquered Hungary and Romania […]” (though certainly John Ash is a fine reference for recipes or preparation related content).Seraphim System ^(talk) 00:44, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Suggested compromise.

@Seraphim System:

Since we obviously won't be able to agree to which narrative should be used on this page, here's my attempt at a compromise: we do both. I have made the changes, and further discussion can take place here, if you're willing. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 18:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

If you want to discuss the changes, then stop edit warring and discuss them and explain why you think the sources support the content you keep restoring - the only solid source in there for history/etymology is Alan Davidson "Dried meat, a forerunner of the pastirma of modern Turkey, became a delicacy." - which is directly quoted in the article. As for paston, I suggest you read the content in the article instead of edit warring. Restoring SPS because you think it has an Armenian origin is not a good reason, we're not going to agree unless you can find reliable sources that support the changes you want to make.Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

If RS support your edit, I won't object, but the only RS supporting Armenian origins is one SPS. Whether and how that source is admissible should be brought to RS/n, because it's not a decision I would be comfortable making without community input. If you bring it to RS/n we can discuss it, and possibly use the source with attribution. However, an RfC is not a substitute for RS. If you open an RfC without engaging in discussion to push through edits that are not reliably sourced, I intend to request a procedural close. I've asked you to post reliable sources that support your edits. The fact that reliable sources don't support your edits is not a good reason for an RfC and is troubling in an area with long-term persistent sock puppetry and LTA issues. Inserting content that is not reliably sourced into articles for POV reasons is extremely damaging to the encyclopedia. You don't seem concerned that the information you are adding may not be accurate.Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:57, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

I looked into it futher and the disputed edits were made by a CheckUser blocked sock of Steverci. The name seems familiar, but I would have to do more digging to figure out where I've seen it before. I checked every source I could, including what I had access to from Takuhi Tovmasyan's Turkish language book, and I couldn't find anything supporting Armenian origins for pastirma. If I do end up finding a source, I will add it. Please stop restoring this until reliable sources are found. Not sure what else to say here.Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:44, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Greece.

It is obvious that Pastirma is traditional Greek meze. The Greeks of Cappadocia have contributed in modest but distinct ways to the general food culture of modern Greece, reinforcing and adding their own nuances to the special foods of the major Christian festivals. They also claim pastirma as one of their specialities. In spite of such Byzantine precursors as apokti, it is true that the pastirma tradition has deep roots in the nomadic culture of the medieval Turks. It is highly probable that they transmitted the idea to the Cappadocians alongtime before Constantinople was conquered, and, although Constantinople knew all about pastirma from the seventeenth century onwards, it is certain that after the population exchanges of 1923 modern Greece acquired its knowledge of pastirma from the Capadocians. For more see: Gifts of the Gods: Andrew Dalby, Rachel Dalby, A History of Food in Greece, Foods and Nations, Reaktion Books, 2017, ISBN 1780238630, p. 149. Jingiby (talk) 18:21, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

"obvious" in what sense? in traditional food article we read "traditional foods are foods and dishes that are passed on through generations[1] or which have been consumed for many generations.[2] Traditional foods and dishes are traditional in nature, and may have a historic precedent in a national dish, regional cuisine[1] or local cuisine. Traditional foods and beverages may be produced as homemade, by restaurants and small manufacturers, and by large food processing plant facilities.[3]"

pastirma 1) has not passed on through generations in Greece: it is completely unknown to Greek mainland folks how to make it, and most of all its existence was not known until very recently in history, instead of "consumed for many generations". It is not homemade, and other than specific restaurants specialized on anatolian originated food in northern Greece, as well as in the center of Athens, it was never served in Greek restaurants as "traditional food".

It's impressive how people who have probably hardly even been to Greece, have an opinion of what is traditional in Greece and what not, which contradicts the opinion of Greeks themselves — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:85F:E044:7800:11CC:AF1B:78C4:1F2E (talk) 23:23, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Can this be used as a source?

I want to add the earliest mention of basturma, in armenian aboukh. Acccording to a source I know (https://armenianprelacy.org/2016/07/08/how-do-you-say-basturma-in-armenian/) it is stated that aboukht is mentioned in the first armenian bible translation. Can I use this as a source, or not? Also If someone can, can someone please verify If the word aboukht actually appears in the Armenian bible translation? 2003:EA:4F4F:CFED:81DC:9569:5D8B:70B4 (talk) 19:47, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why it could not be used. Please add it to the article and if you difficulty doing so, post a request for edit here. Netherzone (talk) 22:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright thanks, I added it to the article. 2003:EA:4F4F:CF55:474:E868:9C6C:2C14 (talk) 00:28, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

"Pastırma existed in ancient Armenian cuisine. " Really?

Armenian Aboukh is historically and etymologically distinct from pastırma. To claim that "pastırma existed in ancient Armenian cuisine" is to claim ancient Armenians somehow introduced the dish to ancient turks hundreds of years before name "pastirma" first mentioned as being made by wedging meat between saddle of the horse, which is impossible since at that time two people groups did not live anywhere close. I don't understand why it keeps getting readded, no one is claiming the invention of dried meat, but to assert pastırma in particular as "existing in ancient Armenian cuisine" is ridiculous and impossible. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

Your sources? Grasshalm (talk) 11:11, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm it would be up to you to prove how aboulh is related to pastırma Agent Albatros (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Aboukh* Agent Albatros (talk) 16:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@KhndzorUtogh@Valereee lock the page or sum, it needs to be protected from vandalism, a user is constantly reverting sourced content and inline citations! Grasshalm (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

Btw, meat wedged between the sadle of a horse is not exactly basturma, which is characterised by air drying and being covered in the chemen paste.. Even If that horsesweat meat was pastirma, It would still be far after Armenians had it in ancient times as the article points out.. Grasshalm (talk) 11:14, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm"Btw, meat wedged between the sadle of a horse is not exactly basturma, which is characterised by air drying and being covered in the chemen paste"

Well, it is how it is first described in its oldest mention.

like I said, im not about who invented dried meat, I am simply saying that the "pastırma" is with its history, name, everything, is distinct form the armenian aboukh, and should not be equated with pastırma.

And what was implied in the article was that pastırma was introduced to turks and mongols, who at the time lived around altai mountains, by armenians who lived in ararat.

So no, Armenians did not have the pastırma, they had another form dried meat, which was not called pastırma, was unrelated to pastırma. Agent Albatros (talk) 16:27, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Turks and mongols did not have pastirma, the first time pastirma is mentioned in turkish sources is diwan al-turk, from the 11th century, where turks had entered anatolia. The chemen paste (lt has a link bringing you to wiktionary) is also of armenian etymology and you cant just revert sourced comtent. One of these inline cotations literially states its of armenian origin. You cant delete sourced comtent. Grasshalm (talk) 16:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

And when the citation speaks about how turks used to wedge it between their saddle and their horse It means anatolian turks, as if it was central asian turks, or mongols, the cotation wouldve said turkic/mongol, not turkish. Just read carefully. Grasshalm (talk) 16:38, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm you clearly did not read kashgari, he never talks about any turkic tribe living in anatolia,he talks about tribes in central asia. battle of manzikert was fought in around the time he FINISHED.his book, which resulted in FIRST tribes moving into anatolia,never does he talk about any armenians living together with turks. do not cite the sources you haven't read. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Wheres your inline citation confirming what you have read? Also, even If that was the case and the turks were in persia by their time, or had just entered Anatolia withbthe battle of manzikert, It would still be logical, as people back then traded and If turks already were in persia, or near manzikert, they would have bordered bagratid armenia. Grasshalm (talk) 17:03, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm where is your proof for this? Source never connects pastırma with armenian aboukh and in context talks about turks in and aroud central asia, you, out of nowhere, connect the dried meat he talks about to aboukh, with 0 evidence besides "they are both dried meat" even though he CLEALY describes it distinctly. Just how do you connect it with Aboukh? Agent Albatros (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Here, fr the 3rd time my dyslexic friend:

—>In the Middle East, basturma - spiced and wind-dried beef - is still made according to old family recipes. Of Armenian origin, this seasoned meat was carried by Turkish horsemen who allegedly wedged it between saddle and horse for extra salt and savor. Grasshalm (talk) 17:11, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm this Web page does not offer any proof of this claim, I can pull other websites saying otherwise. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:17, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

You know, this is actually laughable, Its a book about food history made by a food historian who had to give his sources for it to be recognised by the Gastronomica institute. The same goes for any other source, also the sources talking about turkish pastirma, youre just desperate at this point and havent even brought one source by yourself. Grasshalm (talk) 17:21, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm no, it is a web page and only does nothing to connect aboukh with pastıma other than saying it is, just give me a single atom of proof in aboukh being related to pastırma, just one. The primary source does not mention aboukh or armenians in any way, neither any primary sources, just one atom of proof. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:24, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Oh man, youre so ignorant Its painful, what are your motivations to be so neglecting of any source given to you? Are It nationalistic reasons? It is a page that perserves the pages of the book digitally, youre getting ridicilous and desperate, not to mention the other sources of this article I havent even named yet Grasshalm (talk) 17:26, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm you cannot explain how aboukh is related to pastırma, other than pointing to a book that says it is, it should not be so hard. Just tell me bro. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:32, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Oh man, youre so deluded, did you even read your own comment? „you cannot explain how aboukh is related to pastırma, other than pointing to a book that says it is“……Yeah, I got a source for what I say, infact a book approved by food historians is my source, do you expect me to just talk nonesense without citing any source like you? Grasshalm (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm yeah you cant explain it, do you really want me no primary source mentions it,kashgari or anyone else. There are several primary sources other than kashgari describing how turks and momgols made the Pastırma exactly as how he describes it. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:43, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Lemme quote you „You cant explain your version, all you do is point to a book“. Same exact logic, no source states that aboukh and pastirma are different and you not even looking at the sources this page gives is pathetic. You want an explanation? Sources say Its of Armenian origin and Turks got it, because they adopted it. Not too hard to understand eh..

I know youre triggered as a Turk, but thats no reason to become ignorant. Grasshalm (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

kashgari,çelebi,bertrandon say it is not,how does your single source saying it is armenian without any proof of any kind, outweigth one source saying it is not?you migth not be aware but second hand sources also have to cite primary sources and no primary source makes that claim.astırma exists in balkans and egypt too.not just armenia and turkey. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:00, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

There also are 4 other sources stating that and kashgari doesnt say that It is of „Turkic origin, but that turks used to consume it, again, faulty citing and you didnt even give any inline citations for what you said, soon, when other show up, this page will be protected from your vandalism by being locked and you could be banned If continuing this. Grasshalm (talk) 18:02, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

There also are 4 other sources stating that and kashgari doesnt say that It is of „Turkic origin, but that turks used to consume it, again, faulty citing and you didnt even give any inline citations for what you said, soon, when other show up, this page will be protected from your vandalism by being locked and you could be banned If continuing this. Also, It doesnt matter in which countries its popular now, the history sextion is about where it was historically made. Grasshalm (talk) 18:02, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America,says it is turkish,çelebi says it,

"and kashgari doesnt say that It is of „Turkic origin, but that turks used to consume it"

you just cant read

"It doesnt matter in which countries its popular now, the history sextion is about where it was historically made"

the first description litterarly says how its made and does not mention aboukh. it says it is made by nomads in horses,thats not armenians,your nationalism rotted your brain. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:07, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Oxford does not say it, you didnt give any source for that and you also didnt give any source for a guy named celebi or sum having said that its of turkish origin. All in all, youre desperate rn. Your nationalism and ignorance will be your downfall. Grasshalm (talk) 18:09, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

you are rigth, kashgari never says its of turkish origin, he just says it is made and eaten by them,so we assume it. they dont have to scream IT IS TURKISH NOT ARMENIAN,the method is distinct,the place is distinct, why are you arguing it is armenian?there is no proof,the second hand source you cited offers no proof,makes no referance.you simlpy cant say it. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:24, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Now, so your best source is a source thats stating that turks used to consume it, but that doesnt say its of turkish origin, as you yourself said, all you do is assume, while the sources for the armenian part, say that it IS of Armenian origin, see the error in your ways. Grasshalm (talk) 18:26, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

a single book says its armenian without any proof,while my source describes how it is made,which is due to their nomadic life,by saddle,says it is made and eaten by them,thats how it says it,it litterarly means "pressing".

it simply does not need anymore, it is made by them, it is made in context of their unique lifestyle,and it litterarly means "pressing".

just explain to me how that is related to aboukh Agent Albatros (talk) 18:32, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

No, not a single book, but multiple books, look at the other sources of the Armenian part. It doesnt matter If your book explains how Its made (that book Ive given also does) If It doesnt give a thruth claim. Its like giving a cooking recipe as a source for why something is of „x country‘s“ origin Grasshalm (talk) 18:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm you just can't read. I wont respond umtil you explain how aboukh is related to pastıma, which is the whole base for arguing that it is armenian origin.

You cant Agent Albatros (talk) 18:39, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Again, It is NOT a webside bruh..

Now this is just insane. Grasshalm (talk) 17:24, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm you still did not explain. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@Grasshalm I can pull sources telling otherwise, it changes nothing, it it just says it is related despite primary sources not mentioning it,infact it says the opposite, that it was made by nomads in saddle, as the primary source says, and never does he mention aboukh. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:38, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

You cant read and are dyslexic, I dont need to explain how it happened, just as you dont need to explain how pastirma entered turkish cuisine, or how it got to bulgaria, or why It appeared in egypt. I even actually did explain it, but even that and countless sources werent enough, because youre an ignorant turk who vandalises and tries to corrupt articles because of your nationalistic tendencies. Grasshalm (talk) 18:41, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm pastıma literally means pressing in turksih lmao of course you dont need to explain.you need to explain how it is related to aboukh. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:48, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

It doesnt matter what It is called in turkish, It matters where it originally is from and the sources state that Its armenian in origin and that aboukht is the old armenian name for it. Youre just too ignorant and unintelligent to grasp that. Grasshalm (talk) 18:49, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm explain the link between aboukh and pastırma for the 1000x time Agent Albatros (talk) 18:51, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

I already did and you didnt accept it, aka, you are ignorant and keep asking for something already provided, soon, this page will be locked and youll get to calm down from your nationalistic frenzy. Grasshalm (talk) 18:53, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm you claim something which means pressing in turkish borrowed their own word for Armenian, you are the only deranged nationalist here. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Again, youre not understanding anything and simplifying it, it are 5, not 1 source and you got no sources, so I advise you stop this vandalising. Grasshalm (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm liar, you will do anything but prove it will you, just accept it, aboukh and pastırma are not the same. Agent Albatros (talk) 19:06, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

OK, now you are also casting aspersions as well, you both need to stop slinging insults and assuming bad faith. Netherzone (talk) 19:28, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@Barseghian Lilia this user is just reverting sourced content and not even giving any sources of his sources to contest them, what shall be done? Grasshalm (talk) 16:41, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm brother, stop it, the source just nentions a different dried meat, its called aboukh, and says that it is where pastırma comes from without doing anything to prove it. Just make a seperate page about aboukh, it is not hard. Agent Albatros (talk) 16:45, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

It does not, since youre dyslexic, heres the source written out for you: In the Middle East, basturma - spiced and wind-dried beef - is still made according to old family recipes. Of Armenian origin, this seasoned meat was carried by Turkish horsemen who allegedly wedged it between saddle and horse for extra salt and savor.

Aboukh was just the ancient name for it.. Grasshalm (talk) 16:53, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

@Grasshalm and where does it base the claim that it was pf Armenian origin? It connects it with Aboukh, which is as we established untrue. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:03, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Are you dyslexic? Here again for you:

—>In the Middle East, basturma - spiced and wind-dried beef - is still made according to old family recipes. Of Armenian origin, this seasoned meat was carried by Turkish horsemen who allegedly wedged it between saddle and horse for extra salt and savor. Grasshalm (talk) 17:05, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

References

@Grasshalm again, How does this prove that pastıma is of Armenian origin and related to aboukh other that saying it is? Its just a web page, I can pull tens of websites saying otherwise it doesn't prove anything. Just say to me how you prove aboukh is the origin of pastırma other than "they are both dried meat" Agent Albatros (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@Netherzone or anyone, can someone lock this page so It cant be vandalised anymore? Grasshalm (talk) 17:22, 28 July 2025 (UTC)—  Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation.

You are both edit warring, and both of you need to stop. Also casting aspersions such as using dyslexic as a slur is not appropriate. Netherzone (talk) 18:53, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@Netherzone ok, at this point I give up, let aboukh be pastırma. You won. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:59, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

There have been 18 or 19 reverts in the past day, this is edit warring. You are both wrong to do so. Take it to an administrator's notice board, such as WP:ANI or WP:ANI/EW or seek dispute resolution at WP:DRN. In the meantime I will be restoring the article to a stable state it was in prior to when the edit war began. Netherzone (talk) 19:09, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

About your additions

Thread by an account later blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Əzərbəyəniləri The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

@Haydi123 Lemme disect your sources so you see the error.

You wrote

Your source states:

Ali Batu, Heysem S Batu

Journal of ethnic foods 5 (2), 76-82, 2018

This study has focused on Turkish culinary culture from ancient times until today. Horse meat and mutton were prominent foods of ancient Turks. The journey of Turkish food culture has been in continuous development from the past beginning from Central Asia, Seljuk, Ottoman Empire to Republican eras and has excelled. Today, Turkish cuisine has an important place in the world. During the Ottoman Empire, the cuisine survived and developed because of three factors: palace, mansion, and chefs in Istanbul. The culinary culture of the Ottoman Empire was divided into palace kitchens and public kitchens. Beginning with reform in the Republican period, the impact of foreign cuisine has been observed in Turkish cuisine. The food culture differs from region to region; Eastern Anatolia, Southeastern Anatolia, the Black Sea, Marmara, Aegean, and Mediterranean have their own particular food culture. In recent years, the culinary culture has been influenced by globalization.

Then you also added this source:

Pastrami on rye: An overstuffed history of the Jewish deli

Ted Merwin

Pastrami on Rye, 2015

For much of the twentieth century, the New York Jewish deli was an iconic institution in both Jewish and American life. As a social space it rivaled—and in some ways surpassed—the synagogue as the primary gathering place for the Jewish community. In popular culture it has been the setting for classics like When Harry Met Sally. And today, after a long period languishing in the trenches of the hopelessly old-fashioned, it is experiencing a nostalgic resurgence.

Pastrami on Rye is the first full-length history of the New York Jewish deli. The deli, argues Ted Merwin, reached its full flowering not in the immigrant period, as some might assume, but in the interwar era, when the children of Jewish immigrants celebrated the first flush of their success in America by downing sandwiches and cheesecake in theater district delis. But it was the kosher deli that followed Jews as they settled in the outer boroughs of the city, and that became the most tangible symbol of their continuing desire to maintain a connection to their heritage. Ultimately, upwardly mobile American Jews discarded the deli as they transitioned from outsider to insider status in the middle of the century. Now contemporary Jews are returning the deli to cult status as they seek to reclaim their cultural identities.

This source:

Traditional foods of the North Caucasus region

Natalya Oboturova, Ivan Evdokimov, Irina Kulikova, Andrey Bratsikhin, Diana Bogueva

Nutritional and Health Aspects of Traditional and Ethnic Foods of Eastern Europe, 69-91, 2022

The traditional national cuisine of the culturally diverse conglomerate of ethnic groups inhabiting the territory of the North Caucasus is extremely unique, original, varied, and can boast to be one of the rich culinary cultures prevailing in the region. Only those who have tasted the beautiful gastronomic specialties of North Caucasus people that are full of fragrant herbs and spices and distinct tastes are familiar with the world-famous dried basturma, to the traditional sausages and shashlik, and the kefir and iryan for quenching your thirst.

Then this one

Gastronomi Turizmi Kapsamında Yöresel Ürünlerin Geliştirilmesi: Kastamonu Pastırması Örneği (Development of Local Products within the Scope of Gastronomy Tourism: The Case of …

Sümeyye MUTLU, Hakkı ÇILGINOĞLU

Journal of Tourism & Gastronomy Studies 10 (4), 3034-3054, 2022

In gastronomic tourism, local designs can be brought from products to increase the awareness of the cuisine of the regions, and their applicability in local products. In this context, the main purpose of the research is to examine the current contributions of Kastamonu pastrami, a local product, to gastronomic tourism in the destination region, and to develop suggestions for development and sustainability. In order to achieve the research objectives, the relevant literature was searched and interviews were conducted with the source people who produce and sell Kastamonu pastrami and who are believed to be experts in their field, through semi-structured interview forms. The obtained data were analyzed with descriptive content analysis. In this study, the place of pastrami in Kastamonu culinary culture, its history, the features that distinguish Kastamonu pastrami from other regions, the current effectiveness of Kastamonu pastrami in gastronomic tourism in Kastamonu, the annual production and sales of pastrami in Kastamonu, the income from pastrami are examined in detail. At the end of the study, suggestions that are thought to contribute to Kastamonu gastronomic tourism and the development of Kastamonu pastrami were developed, and new recipes were presented in the study, since it was concluded that the usage area of Kastamonu pastrami was narrow.

Then also this turkish source I translated:

In Turkish culinary culture, certain foods have been consumed in dried form since very early times. Among staple food products, the dried form of fruits and meat was called kak, and meat dried with spices depending on the season was called yazuk et. Based on this tradition, pastırma developed into a completely distinct taste and variety in Kayseri, which has been an important cultural and commercial center of Anatolia since ancient times. The word pastırma was formed as bas-tır-ma, and through the sound change b → p it took its present form. Pastırma is also used in other Turkic dialects.

This turkish source:

Istanbul continued its legacy of taverns and drinking culture from the Byzantine period even after its conquest by the Ottoman Empire in 1453. In the literature, there are studies concerning Ottoman-era Istanbul taverns, alcohol consumption, and the state’s attitude toward their regulars. This study, focusing again on the example of Istanbul taverns, was planned around the question of what kinds of meze and foods accompanied the drinking of someone addicted to alcohol. Another question emphasized is the relationship between the meze and foods adorning tavern tables and Istanbul cuisine in general. The study seeks to determine continuities or changes in types of meze and foods, taking into account the effects of the modernization process experienced by the Ottoman Empire especially in the mid-19th century. In this regard, although fish consumption among Muslims was more limited, it is seen that from the mid-16th century onwards it was consumed at drinking tables. About three centuries later, Muslims, with the act of drinking ceasing to be a legal crime for them, began to contribute to the understanding of meze consumption. The findings specific to Ottoman Istanbul are also important in that they offer the opportunity to compare with the public entertainment life involving alcohol in states contemporary to the Ottoman Empire. The sources of the study are chronicles, travel books and memoirs based on observation, as well as the şer‘iyye court records and archival documents, which reflect only slightly in the records due to the sensitivity of the issue at the state level.

And at good last, thsi source:

Iznik, the pottery of Ottoman Turkey. By Nurhan Atasoy and Julian Raby. pp. 784, 991 illus. including 303 in colour. London, Alexandra Press, under the auspices of the …

Godfrey Goodwin

Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 122 (1), 162-164, 1990

We all are: even those who are illegitimate. One might abuse Chiswick House because it owes much to Palladio and the Roman traditions that bore him. The Iznik style was in part a reaction to the impact of the scarce, and later numerous, examples of Chinese blue and white imports. This noble invader was to be absorbed and regurgitated from the fifteenth to the seventeenth centuries until decline in patronage brought the kilns to ruin. It was local and, as so often happens, the Court always valued the objects from afar more than their own wares-at least until the revolutionary development of the famous red bole. Even then Iznik pots were relatively cheap. The book establishes a remarkable creative presence due in part to the impact made by the assembly from diverse collections of works of the same period and sometimes of the same potter, side by side. The emphasis on chronology is important when there are works that hitherto have lacked acceptable dating: it is the heart of the matter. The scientific analysis of frit, clay and glazes is important for these materials, including lead, establish the provenance of each example. Until c. 1550, dishes were moulded but then the treadwheel liberated the potters. So long as they worked from stencils supplied from the Court studios attached to the Aslanhane, their work was not their own but now they were free to design for themselves for bourgeois patrons. Free brush strokes by the human hand were as important here as were the unruled lines of a geometric drawing by Paul Klee. It had nothing to do with the need for human workmanship to show that only God is perfect but all to do with that slight asymmetry which stimulates the enquiring eye. Where there could never be such freedom was with the vast production of tiles for mosques and palaces that give Istanbul its permanent exhibition of paradaisical walls of which that in the mosque of Sokollu Mehmed Pa § a at Kadirga, together with its minber hood and calligraphic tiles, is the grand master of them all.

It is sad that the potters were poorly paid and lived humbly. Towards the end of the sixteenth century a misfiring could be a disaster because of their lack of capital but craftsmen in those years were seen as chattels to be plucked by conquerors from Tabriz or elsewhere. The book examines the work of the Kutahya and Diyarbakir potters working more or less in the Iznik style and the possibility that Thessaloniki might have contributed briefly to production. In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Italy had no doubt of the importance of Iznik pots and Balkan princes along with the abbots of Mount Athos were eager patrons. Tankards came to London and the Iznik ceramics still extant in Normandy indicate French approval of the colours above all. But attempts at Faenza to copy the rich red produced meagre results. A number of individual designers and craftsmen emerge from this book which adds an individual lustre to the history. But Dr Raby is a little harsh in stating that in the last years of the kilns figures were brutish-rather than comic and childish-although he does not criticize the primitive form of the big trees of the mid-sixteenth century. There is little else that he misses even in the most provincial of mosques but he does overlook a tradition of tile soffits carrying dense and small calligraphic designs. These occur at the mosque of Selim I at Istanbul, 1522, more extensively in the mosque of Lala Mustafa Pasa in Erzerum, 1562-3, and at that of Omer Pasa at Elmah, 1635-to which he does indeed refer otherwise. Such calligraphy did not come parentless to Tekke territory.

*Do you notice how none of these sources connect pastirma with ancient turkic techniques where all turks did was putting meat between horse and saddlebag? Some of your articles dont even talk about pastirma, or not even mention turks, like the pastrami on rye article, or the iznik art article, which idk why you used. At the end of the day, you used sources that often didnt halk about pastirma, or only talked about pastirma in the ottoman period, while making claims that horsesaddlemeat was pastirma, you see the error?* Grasshalm (talk) 12:23, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

One of your sources even states that „Based on this tradition, pastırma developed into a completely distinct taste and variety in Kayseri, which has been an important cultural and commercial center of Anatolia since ancient times.“, which means, that according to this source, even before turks entered anatolia in the middle ages, people in anatolia already had pastirma. Your sources ofzentimes even contradict what you say. Grasshalm (talk) 12:26, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

I'm preparing a response to your other comment, but I wanted to respond to this one before that. Reread what you quoted. "Based on this tradition, pastırma developed into a completely distinct taste and variety in Kayseri, which has been an important cultural and commercial center of Anatolia since ancient times." The source I cited explains in detail in the history section how pastırma evolved into its modern form. It states that today's pastırma emerged from nomadic culture and developed over time. By quoting this, you say, "Look, the source you quoted says this, meaning pastırma existed in Anatolia before the Turkic groups arrived." Yet, the sentence you quoted has nothing to do with the inference you're making. I repeat, please reread your last quote and the history section of the source. Nowhere does it say, "Even before Turks entered Anatolia in the Middle Ages, people in Anatolia already had pastırma. Haydi123 (talk) 12:45, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

This would then mean that the only source stating that something akin to pastirma (obviously without cemen, which would just make it another dried meat), is this, pretty weak, as it doesnt give dates, I propose we write „According to some sources, Turks also used dried meat products, which would then have developed into turkish pastirma in Anatolia.“, but the rest has no relevance to what you wrote, as it either doesnt mention turks, or pastirma, or is about the ottoman period. Grasshalm (talk) 12:51, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Now then, you agree? Afterall, theres nothing else to say. Grasshalm (talk) 13:20, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

The sentence you suggested is quite good to start the paragraph. I wish you had suggested adding it instead of deleting the entire thing from the start. As I said in my previous comment, the article is not mine; the author used these sources and reached these conclusions, so I quoted the article without adding any commentary. I guess it's not forbidden to do that, right? Haydi123 (talk) 13:54, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Alright, so we have a consensus? Grasshalm (talk) 13:55, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

If what we agree on is to add the sentence you wrote to the beginning of the paragraph, not to delete the entire paragraph and just write that, then yes, we have an agreement. Haydi123 (talk) 14:00, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Sure thing then, I will keep the sources that confirm the sentence, while deletingbthe sources that dont talk about pastirma, or turks Grasshalm (talk) 14:01, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

The entire paragraph should remain, and you should add this sentence at the beginning. Readers will decide for themselves what to believe. I don't want you to choose your own sources by saying, "I'll leave the sources that mention Turks or pastırma and delete the others." This way, you're distorting the author's writing. As I mentioned in a previous comment, not all of these sources have to focus on pastırma; the author has written his own article using these sources. Wikipedia can contain different claims about the origins and history of something. It doesn't have to contain just one claim, as it did in the old version of the page. Haydi123 (talk) 14:15, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

No, I do not, as what is the relevance of Iznik pottery, or jewish pastrami to Turks from central asia using dried meat products? Grasshalm (talk) 14:16, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

You edited the page as you wished before we could fully agree on it. I don't want to press this issue any further; I've made two changes to the final version. Both claims should begin with "according to some sources." I think we can agree on that. You've deleted a separate piece of information about the word's etymology, and the source you left behind gives the impression that it's supported by only one person. There's no debate about the word's etymology; it's Turkish. I've added the section with more sources. Haydi123 (talk) 14:24, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

I agree on the etymology change, but the according to some sources change cannot be made, as I didnt write that part, It was written by someone else and there are a tremendous amount of sources and inline cotations, while the other part added only have two sources, of which only one mentions pastirma, to change that, you would have to consult the author that wrote that information. Grasshalm (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

I said the same thing about the paragraph I quoted, but you rejected it and summarized the entire paragraph in a single sentence. The same statement should be added to the beginning of the paragraph about the Armenian origin of pastırma. Multiple sources are cited for both claims, and both should be prefaced with "According to some sources." Haydi123 (talk) 14:32, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Thats a different thing. The paragraph you wrote was not in this article before, we have no way of consulting the guy from the webside you apparently took it from, you are the one who added it to wikipedia, not the webside guy you keep naming. Grasshalm (talk) 14:34, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

You weren't going to touch the etymology part? You changed it again. What are you trying to do? Haydi123 (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Bro, I didnt change it, It was khndzor utogh Grasshalm (talk) 14:39, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Okay, I apologize. I think we're in agreement. I don't accept the other user's change regarding etymology, so I'll change it. I won't touch the other parts. Haydi123 (talk) 14:52, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Alright then Grasshalm (talk) 14:54, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

lMAO. Again, you went and deleted the other source for this claim. The article itself is the same person I quoted the paragraph from. Why are you doing the same thing over and over again? Haydi123 (talk) 14:57, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

I didnt change any of the phrasing, I only dleeted the source, because It didnt have anything to do with what the sentence we agreed upon was saying, infact, It only talked about the properties of pastirma, not the history of pastirma. Grasshalm (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

"infact, It only talked about the properties of pastirma, not the history of pastirma."

"Historical, Technological, Biochemical, and Microbiological Aspects of Pastirma, an Ethnic Meat Product from Asia to Anatolia: A Narrative Literature Review"

This source doesn't talk about the history of pastırma? What? Haydi123 (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

I read the article, It actually doesnt, read it yourself to confirm, It doesnt mention anything about central asian turks using dried meat Grasshalm (talk) 15:10, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Again; Haydi123 (talk) 15:14, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

@Haydi123 Do not change anything just because you "don't accept" something. I explained based on policy and very clearly, below (see my pings), why some of your edits were problematic. If you continue to edit-war, you might get blocked all together not just from one article. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 14:55, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

You didn't explain anything, don't kid yourself. You deleted the sentence with more etymological references and added another. Your change has nothing to do with the article you directed me to read. Don't try to manipulate me. We agreed with the other editor, and you're causing trouble. I don't want to argue any further; that's all for today. Haydi123 (talk) 15:04, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

And please don't make any changes, even minor ones, without full agreement. You made a change I disagree with and wrote it as if we agreed on it. Haydi123 (talk) 14:35, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

I wont change anything in the history section anymore, only preserve its current form, also,bthe one who currently made a change was KhndzorUtogh, not me, u can talk with him about that. Grasshalm (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

First of all, I didn't write the paragraph; I quoted a website and included the website as a source at the end of the paragraph. The author wrote a detailed article about pastırma and used numerous sources. I placed the sources and references provided by the author in the paragraph as the author placed them.

Now, I am quoting the full paragraph I quoted here;

3. Historical Aspects Haydi123 (talk) 13:45, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

This doesnt rebuke anyone I wrote, give it up, Its debunked, accept my proposal, or everythings getting deleted. „According to some sources, Turks also used dried meat products, which would then have developed into turkish pastirma in Anatolia.“ Is all that I can get out of all these sources, where only one source even talks about what you were saying.

Next time, dont rely on others. Grasshalm (talk) 13:47, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

@Haydi123 If the sources don't directly discuss Basturma/Pastirma, then it would be WP:OR and WP:SYNTH violations. Also don't minimize reliable sources like you did here , those are stronger sources then what you added and unlike your sources, directly discuss Basturma/Aboukh. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 14:37, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

This is not about minimizing or anything, and what is written has nothing to do with whether the source is strong or not. Haydi123 (talk) 14:41, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

It has everything to do with it because you see, on Wikipedia we have policies. And you tried to give WP:UNDUE weight to weaker sources most of them don't even discuss Basturma (the remaining ones don't even do, they discuss dried meat), while at the same time, you tried to WP:WEASEL minimizing stronger reliable sources that actually discuss Basturma/Aboukh. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 14:44, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

@Haydi123 Also please read Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary regarding this edit . KhndzorUtogh (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Haydi123 (talk) 14:43, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Btw, I wanted to ask, does this source even talk about dried meat products having been prepared by turks in central asia, or should this source put somewhere else, or deleted?

Grasshalm (talk) 14:44, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

References

Copyright Violation

The current copyright violation has been on the page for over a month. Since the page has been subject to constant sock puppetry, it has gone under protection by an admin.

Is there any way to resolve the issue with the copy right violation? It's a pretty big blemish on the page and it serves to point people towards the page history... which only leads them into discovering the drama that went on in the edits since the pages with the copyrighted content have been removed. 37.224.24.67 (talk) 08:40, 2 October 2025 (UTC)