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Talk:Overtone

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Latest comment: 4 days ago by ~2026-38734-14 in topic Citation doesn't support text


Definition

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Formulas

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A recursive arithmetic formula for the overtone series:

  • an=an-1+x, for a1=x

A recursive geometric formula for the octave "series":

  • an=an-1*2, and/or
  • an=an-1/2

I don't know if there is a way to do this in one formula.

Here's another formula for the overtone series for one-dimensional standing waves on a medium of length L and wave speed v:

  • fn=(nv/2L)

from Intervals, overtones, and axis PDF Hyacinth

http://www.chanceandchoice.com/ChanceandChoice/chapter2.html

Hyacinth, I think you mean harmonic series, not overtone series. Overtones can be inharmonic and overtones don't include the fundamental. Another Stickler (talk) 20:17, 12 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
The simplest harmonic partial series formula I can think of is
fn = f * n
where f is some arbitrary positive real frequency, n is the ordinal or counting number of each harmonic partial from 1 up, and fn should be read as "f sub n" or "f of n", meaning the frequency of harmonic partial n. ~2026-34537-05 (talk) 17:53, 3 July 2026 (UTC)Reply




Octave Series

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I thought "overtones" were an integer power of two multiplied by the fundamental frequency, so for example, the 'second overtone' of a fundamental frequency would be the fundamental frequency multiplied by two to the power of two, and the 'fourth overtone' would be the fundamental multiplied by two to the power of four, etc. Denelson83 01:37, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

so the overtone series would be 2f, 4f, 8f, 16f, 32f? that's the octave series. what field is this definition in? - Omegatron 15:44, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
Denelson83, there can't be any single series defined for all overtones for all resonating systems because overtones can be any frequency that a resonating system produces (that is higher than the fundamental). Depending on the system, that can include octaves of the fundamental (as in your proposed series), harmonics of the fundamental, or frequencies that are not multiples of the fundamental (inharmonic partials). It all depends on what the actual system produces. Another Stickler (talk) 20:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Notation

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[] Notation und MIDI-Sound --88.73.222.2 08:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

That link points to a nice illustration of a Harmonic series (music) compared with 12-tone equal temperament, but it's not usable in this article to illustrate overtones because overtones are not necessarily harmonic, and the illustration includes the fundamental, which by definition is not an overtone. Another Stickler (talk) 17:51, 12 February 2010 (UTC)Reply

Guitar string

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"This means that halving the physical string length, does not halve the actual string vibration length, and hence, the overtones will not be exact multiples of a fundamental frequency. The effect is so pronounced that well set up guitars will angle the bridge such that the thinner strings will progressively have a length up to few millimeters shorter than the thicker strings. Not doing so would result in inharmonious chords made up of two or more strings. Similar considerations apply to tube instruments."

The angle of the bridge isn't really for correcting overtone-problems, but for correcting intonation problems (relating to the fundamental more than the overtones that is) resulting from difference in mass etc. of the strings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.253.57.162 (talk) 18:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

It is true that guitar strings are slightly inharmonic, especially depending on how dirty and old they are, but it is also true that bridge intonation adjustment is not related (much) to this inharmonicity. Instead, bridge intonation compensates for stretch in the fretting of notes primarily, which differs based on string mass and material.Backfromquadrangle (talk) 05:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Overtone singing

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"Overtone singing (wrongly known also as throat singing)..." Tuvan's and Mongol's Overtone singing IS called Throat Singing, it is NOT only the Inuit Katajjaq... (Written by someone from Finland and who is a practitioner of TUVAN THROAT SINGING.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.175.200.134 (talk) 21:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)Reply

Circular drums

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The article claims that the first overtone of a circular drum is 2.4 times the fundamental frequency. But from the Vibrations of a circular drum article, it seems that it should be a11/a01, where amn is the n-th positive zero of the Bessel function Jm. This is 1.5933..., so I think "2.4" should be changed to "about 1.6". --Zundark (talk) 12:15, 18 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

I've changed it to "about 1.6", and added a reference (which says 1.593). --Zundark (talk) 12:18, 19 June 2010 (UTC)Reply

"Overtone" was deprecated in the 19th century!

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I dare say that any competent and intelligent student of musical acoustics at least understands that "overtone" was deprecated over a century ago. Please see the note in the article about Ellis' translation of Helmholtz (which I have read, some time ago). I'm EXTREMELY* disappointed that Wikipedia seems to still give this term so much credence. *I use all caps only very rarely!

Such a respected author as Thomas Rossing, co-author of a fine book about acoustics, as I understand it (I don't own a copy) uses the term "partials", instead of "overtones", pointing out that there are two kinds: harmonic, and inharmonic. The almost-harmonic partials of plucked or struck strings do not detract from a sense that the notes produced have a definite pitch, as hammered dulcimers, pianos, and harpsichords -- as well as guitars, lutes, banjos, and many others plainly demonstrate.

There are certain choices our society stubbornly holds on to, even though there are quite-good reasons to change. (Consider the ridiculous arrangement of the letters on nearly all keyboards, for instance.) If Helmholtz is not good enough of a reference, what is? (Rossing, et al?)

Moreover, the notice at the top of the article that says that no references are cited ignores Ellis. Seems to me that it should be taken down. Nikevich (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

Added comments

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I tried to rewrite, substituting "partial" for "overtone", essentially where it didn't violently clash with how musicians use the term. I also added some text. However, it seems that, when nearly done, I created an editing conflict with myself (all too doggoned easy to do, hang it!) and lost about four hours' work.

Some more references, inexact (I'm running out of energy; sorry!):

  • Juan G. Roederer, Intro. to the Physics and Psychophysics of Hearing (approx. title, possibly correct)
  • Arthur [ ] Benade, Horns, Strings, and Harmony (I think that is the title of his- book on musical acoustics)
  • Ganot's Physics (Google books; 19th-century text) -- Very popular in its time; of interest partly for illustrations and descriptions of scientific apparatus)
  • Rossing, Moore, and Wheeler, The Science of Sound -- Excellent work on acoustics

One of these (Roederer?) points out that, as only fairly-recently learned, perceived timbre is influenced a great deal by initial transients that start a musical note; these die out within a fraction of a second.

As well, please, let's not help perpetuate the "(n-1)" nonsense of calling, say, five times the fundamental the fourth overtone (or harmonic). While it seems odd to designate the first harmonic as the fundamental, that's not much of a nuisance, imho.

No mention of Chladni figures? Good gosh.Nikevich (talk) 16:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Reply

I linked the Chladni figures article, which maybe didn't exist 16 years ago, or you probably would have linked it. ~2026-34537-05 (talk) 19:00, 3 July 2026 (UTC)Reply

resonating strings

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Instruments such as cellos show spontaneous vibration of adjacent open strings when certain notes are being played and music written in certain keys seems to exploit this property for a richer sound (i.e. the prelude to Bach cello suite 1 in G major). Instruments like sitars use resonating strings. Are these also examples of overtones?

I added to the See also section an internal link to the Sympathetic resonance article. ~2026-34537-05 (talk)

"...sharpness or flatness of... overtones [makes] waveforms not perfectly periodic"?

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In Musical usage term, it states "The sharpness or flatness of their overtones is one of the elements that contributes to their unique sound. This also has the effect of making their waveforms not perfectly periodic."

I think that if the fundamental, and the overtones, are constant over time, then the resultant waveform will be perfectly periodic, but the period will simply be longer than if the overtones were exact multiples.

In a physical instrument the waveform is very unlikely to be perfectly periodic, but for other reasons: the amplitudes, and to a certain extent frequencies, of the fundamental and various overtones vary over time. FrankSier (talk) 12:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Harmonics, overtones, partials

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I can't make sense of the lead's attempt to distinguish these terms: "Using the model of Fourier analysis, the fundamental and the overtones together are called partials. Harmonics, or more precisely, harmonic partials, are partials whose frequencies are integer multiples of the fundamental (including the fundamental which is 1 times itself)." Anyone interested in helping me make this easier to understand? ~Kvng (talk) 15:11, 16 April 2015 (UTC)Reply

===============================================
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There seems to be an inconsistency between the text on overtones and the table under "Musical Usage Term". The text states:

"Because "overtone" makes the upper partials seem like such a distinct phenomena, it leads to the mathematical problem where the first overtone is the second partial." 

whereas the table lists the second overtone as being the same as the second partial. I believe that the text is correct.

Another issue is that the article takes a particular usage of "harmonic" that is not universal; i.e.

"A harmonic frequency is an integer multiple of the fundamental frequency." 

A lot of technical work concerns the harmonics of resonators, which are not integer multiples. I think this is the reason for the term "true harmonic", in which case the sentence should read "A true harmonic frequency is an integer multiple of the fundamental frequency".

I note that the whole area of harmonics, overtones and partials is already full of semantic inconsistencies (possibly due to the terms having been redeveloped by multiple independent sources).

I believe that this makes it advisable to use only those few terms that are well-defined (note?1) for developmental text, and describe the possible multiple meanings of ambiguously defined terms under their separate headings?

Note?1: i.e. true harmonic, overtone and (possibly) partial (though I personally remain uncomfortable with the use of overtone number because it so distorts the numeric relation between overtones of the fundamental and overtones of its harmonics). PhysicistQuery (talk) 21:34, 4 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

relation between harmonic (1st harmonic, 2nd harmonic, ...) and overtone (1st overtone, 2nd overtone, ...)

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what is the relation between harmonic and overtone? in Wikipedia page of harmonic, it say: 2nd harmonic correspond to 1st overtone, but in Wikipedia page of overtone, it say: 2nd harmonic correspond to 2nd overtone. which is right? Xnsxsnx (talk) 06:54, 5 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

partial overtone sentence ambiguity

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This sentence from the "Overtones in music composition" section really bugs me. It mixes partial and overtone in exactly the kind of way that causes ambiguity. I'd fix it if I knew which interpretation they meant.

"The primacy of the triad in Western harmony comes from the first four partials of the overtone series."

If they meant harmonic partials 1 2 3 4, that's a modern equivalent to Pythagoras's "tetraktys" in the 500s BC, which cannot produce a triad containing 5, so it's wrong.

If they meant harmonic overtones counted 1 2 3 4, equivalent to harmonic partials 2 3 4 5, it can produce a triad containing 5, but why leave out the fundamental?

With 1 added, that's equivalent to Zarlino's expansion of the tetraktys to his "senario" 1 2 3 4 5 6 in the 1500s, which Rene Descartes wrote in the 1600s could produce all consonant intervals: octaves, fifths, fourths, thirds, and sixths (though I'm not sure how he got a minor sixth without 8).

Rameau in the 1700s expanded the senario to his "corpse sonore" 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, which allowed him to theorize about the construction of seventh chords, not just intervals and triads.

Any ideas? ~2026-34537-05 (talk) 19:54, 3 July 2026 (UTC)Reply

Help fixing reference "Fineberg, Joshua (2000). Guide to the Basic Concepts and Techniques of Spectral Music"

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All the links under the reference are currently broken or lead to an abstract instead of the full text. I found a full-text URL and tried to add it, but when I edit the References section, the editor shows only the section title with no other content. If anybody else knows how to add it, please do. Here's the URL.

https://cmp.ischool.illinois.edu/courses/tipei/M408E/Notes/spectral.pdf

~2026-34537-05 (talk) 06:27, 4 July 2026 (UTC)Reply

Citation doesn't support text

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"Because the overtone series rises infinitely from the fundamental with no periodicity, in Western music the equal temperament scale was designed to create synchronicity between different octaves.[2][22]"

That's reads as ridiculous to me. The very definition of harmonic partials is that they're all periodic with the fundamental. Also, every interval in 12-tone equal temperament except the octave is irrational therefore aperiodic. So I checked the references, and, as expected, they don't support the claim.

What's the proper Wikipedia way to deal with that? Adding a citation needed tag is meaningless, because it already has two citations. Is there an "I call B.S." tag?

~2026-34537-05 (talk) 07:02, 4 July 2026 (UTC)Reply

There are a couple of ways to do it. You could use Template:Failed verification. What saves the most time is to simply edit the passage to accurately reflect the cited source. Wikipedia encourages editors to be bold for precisely this reason. Otherwise, errors like these remain uncorrected for years.
Too many of our music theory articles are problematic. You've found a rare instance where there are actually two cited sources for a statement. The more common issue is that there are no sources to be found. Trumpetrep (talk) 01:29, 10 July 2026 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the template link. I'll use that for now. ~2026-38734-14 (talk) 05:40, 25 July 2026 (UTC)Reply

Superharmonic

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There's a notice at the top:

"Superharmonic" redirects here. For functions in mathematics, see Superharmonic function.

I searched, and there are only two instances of superharmonic found in this article, the very instances in that notice. It might have been a mistake to redirect it here instead of to Superharmonic function.

Can whoever redirected it here, or anyone else, justify that? ~2026-38734-14 (talk) 16:53, 11 July 2026 (UTC)Reply