Talk:Ots-Toch

Facts and legends

My biggest aspiration for this article is to separate the facts we know from the legends we've been told and the false stories that have been disproved. Any help is greatly appreciated! Mingusboodle (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Good luck, I have tried but since we tell our lineage through family and story it is not considered true. Whatever colonizers write is considered fact. HG369 (talk) 04:32, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

well some things as well arent so much as disproven as not supported elsewhere. and oral history is not a bad place to source things, the dutch didnt record their social history much and the english loved to exclude any culture that wasnt theirs. so its hard to know anything for sure ~2026-34599-11 (talk) 06:03, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Religion

The article used to contrast Ots-Toch to Pocahontas because Ots-Toch rejected Christianity and returned to her Mohawk village without her Dutch husband, as opposed to Pocahontas adopting Christianity and moving to England with John Rolfe. Now the article simply says "They both adopted Christianity." Can anyone back this up with a reference? Canute (talk) 16:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Deleted section

I just deleted the section below. It has citation tags that are over a year old. I have found sources (albeit weak) that suggest Ots-Toch rejected Christianity, but have yet to find even one that claim she adopted Christianity. Even if she did, this long verse made up most of the article about her, and I find it rather dubious. I'm not so concerned about the political incorrectness of the poem, but it looks a lot more like a 19th century invention than a genuine song "written" by a 15th century Mohawk after she met some of the first Europeans to settle in the area. A family tree is not a reliable source, and the bit of trivia at the end about Braintree and the Adams family is completely irrelevant to the subject of the article.

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In local lore, Ots-Toch is often compared to Pocahontas, as the two share many similarities. Both converted to Christianity. Ots- Toch, who was married at the age of fifteen to Cornelisse Van Slyke, is reported to have written this song as a young woman, sometime after the Dutch arrived. Though perhaps not considered politically correct in modern day vernacular, the song she sang to her children, which was passed down through generations to her descendants, goes as follows:

 O'er the dark woods and forest wild
 My father in his wild nature smiled
 with tomahawk and bended bow
 to slay the reindeer and buffalo
 My brother in his bark canoe
 across the lake so gaily flew
 to catch the whitefish in the lake
 and shoot the wild ducks in the brake
 my mother in her wigwam sat
 with copious work and curious chat
 and I poor little Indian maid
 with acorn shells and wildflowers played
 and I beside my mother all day
 to weave the splintered baskets gay
 to pound the samp and tan the skins
 and mend my fathers moccasins
 I could not read, I could not sew
 my Saviors name I did not know
 till white man to the forest came
 and taught poor Indian Jesus name
 He built a church and school house near
 with Holy hymns and wildwood cheer
 Now I can read, now I can sew
 My Saviors name I'm taught to know
 Now my Redeemer I implore
 God bless the white man forever more."

This song was passed down through generations of her descendants, most notably Mary Jane Van Alstyne Maltby, who, interestingly, was also a direct descendant of Henry Adams, the founder of Braintree Mass., the ancestor of the two United States Presidents, John Adams and John Quincy Adams.

I just removed this section again. We've been asking for citations since 2012 and it has never been provided. Also, new source in page specifically calls out the song as family lore which is historically unclear and inaccurate. If we decide the song belongs in this article, it needs to be clearly identified as family lore or backed up with a reliable source that claims otherwise. (Family trees are very interesting but are definitely not reliable sources.) Canute (talk) 14:36, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Lol. Yes, “ the poem” good luck, I have been trying to add that the Hertel myth is just that, a myth. Ots's is my 8th great-grandmother. I have been studying our line for 15 years, I even went to meet my family, and stayed over the summer. I am Kanien’Keha, Haudenosaune, but that doesn't seem to vibe with Wiki. Ots was not Christian, and was full-blooded from what the descendants told me. It's the same unchanged version that has been passed down through song/story. I think it's a lost cause, since it is considered truth when a colonist writes it on paper. I wish WIKI would at least let this information be on the page, but those Christian loving colonists wrote it down so it is considered true. HG369 (talk) 04:43, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

You keep talking about "the truth". But Wikipedia does not concern itself with WP:TRUTH, when writing an encyclopedia it is WP:VERIFIABILITY that matters.

Also don't use an AI, but you've been told that already by now. --Gurkubondinn (talk) 11:47, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

ive also seen her often refered to as just being mohawk and they dont mention her being mixed ~2026-34599-11 (talk) 06:08, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Descendant of Ots-Toch

I am a descendant of Ots-Toch through her daughter, Hilletie/Illetje. She married my straight paternal line ancestor, and I am a biological descendant of her. DannonCool (talk) 16:27, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The Conradt Houghtaling line of mathys houghtaling in coxsackie is also descendent of Ots-Toch through Tryntje Willemsz Van Slyk and Baertje Nieffens.

quite a few of their descendents are in michigan in the genesee-lapeer area ~2026-34599-11 (talk) 06:20, 12 June 2026 (UTC)