Talk:National Landscape

Proposed Merge

I propose that the Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty in England and Wales and the Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty in Northern Ireland pages are merged into one article. Currently the AONB England and Wales page is a near duplicate of the AONB page and the AONB Northern Ireland page is just a list. The pages could be more effectively managed if they are combined into one but split into sections for Introduction, England & Wales and Northern Ireland. This would have the benefit of reducing duplication of effort in maintaing two near-mirror copies of the same page and a separate list page, and also making the article more accessible to readers. I noticed that a previous merge attempt in 2005 was reverted a few months later without discussion, so I would like to hear what other people have to say about this proposal before taking action. Thanks. Road Wizard 20:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Correction, the pages do not appear to have been formally merged previously, just that the AONB page was redirected to the AONB England and Wales page. Road Wizard 21:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge is now complete thanks to Karium. -- Blisco 17:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

___

Seems a good idea to me but I'm just a newby encylopaedist.

• Could you note the threat to AONB noted in The Guardian:

Society Section: Environment: Zones of contention: "Fifty years after the first area of outstanding natural beauty was created, is it time for a rethink as questions arise over maintenance, planning protection and local people being priced out?" The Guardian ( London ); May 3, 2006 ; James Meikle; p. 9

Vernon White 16:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Full article can be found here. I don't think it's sufficiently notable to be included in this article (the Guardian piece is more of a comment article) but it might be a starting point (with additional sources) for mentioning specific threats to the AONBs mentioned in their appropriate articles, ie. Gower, Sussex Downs, Dedham Vale, Kend Downs and Dorset. -- Blisco 17:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Deleted "AONB" from names in list

I've removed the appendage "AONB" from all the names in the list of AONBs, as it seemed somewhat redundant -- I hope no one objects. A large number of these were either redirects or piped links, so "North Pennines AONB" redirected to North Pennines and "Gower AONB" was piped to Gower Peninsula. In addition, there was already an article about Dedham Vale which appeared when I amended the redlink Dedham Vale AONB.

The remaining articles with redundant "AONB" in their titles probably ought to be moved if there is no need to disambiguate -- these being Arnside and Silverdale AONB (for which there is a redirect in place from Arnside and Silverdale), Surrey Hills AONB, Lecale Coast AONB and Ring of Gullion AONB.

I left piped links to "... AONB" in place in cases where the AONB is not coterminous with the area after which it is named (or in cases where I wasn't sure), even if the link is currently a redirect -- Anglesey being the best example -- to avoid problems if an article on the AONB is subsequently created.

Hope that all makes some kind of sense! --Blisco 18:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Deleted list of AONBs in article

I have reverted an edit which added a list of AONBs to the body of the article. This was a good faith edit but this information is at the end of the article in the navboxes. However I do think that the boxes should be expanded by default - anyone know how to do this? --NHSavage (talk) 17:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

sorted - by editing the templates themselves I was able to allow the article to override the default autocollapse status.--NHSavage (talk) 17:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Capitalisation

I do not understand why the title is being changed in so many articles. Natural England, the official body for the AONB designation uses capital letters. See AONB page at Natural England website. --TimTay (talk) 20:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Natural England is wrong. Mooretwin (talk) 23:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The front page of Mendip Hills AONB website uses capitals. Ditto Cotswolds AONB, Wye Valley AONB, North Devon and Tamar Valley. I can list every single one if necessary. AONB is a formal title it is not a description and capitals should be used on Wikipedia just as they are used by Natural England and every individual AONB publication. --TimTay (talk) 20:38, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Not all areas of outstanding natural beauty (as most would see them) are necessarily designated as Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB). However, where they are not designated AONB, it is confusing to most readers to use that phrase. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was to not move the article. While its clear the original legislation did not capitalize the term, its also clear the ongoing, and common usage adopted capitalization. In this case, verifiability trumps any claims of "truth". Rockpocket 18:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Just because something is an acronym (therefore using capital letters) doesn't mean that the phrase itself must be capitalised. The legislation which governs this designation does not use capitals: Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 - http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000037_en_8#pt4 - see section 82: ... the Agency may, for the purpose of conserving and enhancing the natural beauty of the area, by order designate the area for the purposes of this Part as an area of outstanding natural beauty ... In this Part “area of outstanding natural beauty” means an area designated under this section as an area of outstanding natural beauty. Mooretwin (talk) 23:42, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Support: seems like a good move. Rockpocket 02:07, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose as at SSSI. the question is not the legislation; it's what people actually use. The sources here are clear. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose see my talk comments in the section above. Every single AONB management organisation uses capital letters.--TimTay (talk) 08:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

An oft-repeated mistake is no less a mistake. Mooretwin (talk) 09:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose (and would it be an idea to mention the other similar nominations made at the same time: (Special Protection Area, Area of Conservation, Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, Site of Special Scientific Interest, and Special Area of Conservation?)  DDStretch  (talk) 08:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose This title has special meaning in the UK where this applies. The term is capitalised by government agencies and in broadsheet newspapers.— Rod ^talk 08:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose An area of oustanding natural beauty could be applied to anywhere. Capitalised it becomes specific. ♦ Jongleur¹⁰⁰ ♦ ^talk 08:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it becomes specific when applied to a particular AONB, e.g. Shropshire Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, but this article is about areas of outstanding beauty generally. Mooretwin (talk) 09:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I meant a specific type of area. ♦ Jongleur¹⁰⁰ ♦ ^talk 09:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

And this article is about those "specific types of area" generally - not about the specific areas. The term does not have capitals! Read the legislation which created the term! Seriously. Mooretwin (talk) 09:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose The article is not about "areas of outstanding beauty generally" (how would one define them?) but about those areas designated as AONB in the UK, which requires capitalisation. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Very clever, but I'll rephrase: it's about UK-designated areas of outstanding beauty generally. It doesn't require capitalisation - look at the statute which created the designation!

Yes it does. Not all those areas which someone might consider "of outstanding beauty" are officially designated as AONB, but this article only covers those which are. Please note this example: "The correct title of 'Shropshire Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty' should be used. The words have capital letters as it is an official designation." Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know what the article covers, and the designation "area of outstanding natural beauty" isn't capitalised. PLEASE look at the originating statute! The Shropshire Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty is a specific place and is therefore correctly capitalised, i.e. The Shropshire Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty is an area of outstanding natural beauty. Do you argue that the term "civil partner" should be written as "Civil Partner" because it has a legal status? Mooretwin (talk) 10:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support - as above, the designation doesn't have capitals - look at the statute. Also - look at [Hansard]. Individuals and agencies using capitals are mistaken - there is no reason for WP to repeat those mistakes. Mooretwin (talk) 09:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment - as the nom your !vote of support is already assumed. Please strike this from the !vote sheet. Coldmachine^Talk 09:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose as GhmyrtleColdmachine^Talk 09:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose As per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. Most sources I have found use the capitalised version, therefore I cannot support the move. ColourSarge (talk) 10:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Even if most sources are wrong? Mooretwin (talk) 11:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

The convention is to use the most common form of the name, regardless of whether or not it is "technically" correct. For example you should use Bill Clinton rather than William Jefferson Clinton as the former is by far the more used term, even though the latter may be used on his birth certificate. :o) ColourSarge (talk) 12:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Names, whether full or shortened, are always in capitals. Bad example. Mooretwin (talk) 12:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems you are misunderstanding the point I am making. The capitalised version is correct because it is the most common name, in the same way that Bill Clinton is the most common version of that individual's name. That is the basis of my oppose vote. :o) ColourSarge (talk) 12:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

In other words, as long as a mistake is common, then it should be replicated in an encyclopaedia. Mooretwin (talk) 13:11, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

That's right, and the correct form of the term is verifiable. See my sources above. Mooretwin (talk) 14:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but you've already accepted above that "most sources" use initial capitals. Case dismissed, I think. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Note that WP:COMMONNAME deals only with the actual name, and not whether it ought to be capitalised. No-one disputes the actual name here. Mooretwin (talk) 13:11, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Mooretwin I think I have made my position clear, and my oppose vote stands for the reasons stated. If you wish to discuss further with me then please contact me via my talk page. :o) ColourSarge (talk) 13:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment - [MOSCAPS] might be helpful: Titles such as president, king, or emperor start with a capital letter when used as a title (followed by a name): "President Nixon", not "president Nixon". When used generically, they should be in lower case: "De Gaulle was the French president." ... Similarly, "Louis XVI was the French king" but "Louis XVI was King of France", King of France being a title in that context. Therefore, "Shropshire Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty is in England", but "Shropshire Hills is designated as an area of outstanding natural beauty". Mooretwin (talk) 12:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment - [MOSCAPS again]: When showing the source of an acronym, initialism, or syllabic abbreviation, emphasizing the letters that make up the acronym is undesirable: Incorrect: FOREX (FOReign EXchange), Incorrect: FOREX (foreign exchange), Correct: FOREX (foreign exchange) Therefore, Incorrect: AONB (Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty), Correct: AONB (area of outstanding natural beauty). Mooretwin (talk) 12:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose The government agencies responsible for the sites use the initial letter in upper case, and even the National Association for Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty uses the initial letter in upper case. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 14:30, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Copied from Talk:Site of Special Scientific Interest:

Comment Do we have a hint of where this problem originates? Mooretwin said that "no legislation ever uses capitals". I wasn't aware of this, but as far as I can find out it does seem to be the case: for example, this source says "British laws don’t use initial capitals for defined terms". If it is true (for whatever reason), it would explain why SSSI, AONB and the rest do seem to be written with lower case initials in legislation.

However, if legal writing uses a particular style, it does not make that style "correct" and all contrary usage "incorrect" – for example, legal writing generally avoids commas, but those are by no means incorrect in other writing. Mooretwin, I think you have misunderstood the significance of the lack of caps in the legislation: all you are doing is trying to impose a particular legal idiosyncracy onto general writing, where it does not belong. Actual usage in general writing is the guide for use here, and that usage is very clearly almost always with cap initials. (That would apply even if the phrase originated in the legislation, which as I've pointed out above, it does not.) It's surely clear enough by now that the whole proposal is an unfruitful one, for SSSIs as for the other examples mentioned. I suggest you retire gracefully at this point. Richard New Forest (talk) 14:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I never said that "no legislation ever uses capitals"! The point being made is that none of the legislation govening AONBs uses it. Legislation generally often uses capitals. Mooretwin (talk) 16:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually you did say exactly that: "The legislation establishes and then regulates the designation, and no legislation ever uses capitals" (this diff). Or are you claiming that someone else has been using your ID? Richard New Forest (talk) 18:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Note to closing editor: There appears to be a violation of WP:CANVASS on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Capitals, since the section was started by Mooretwin after the various RMs were proposed by him, and the message is phrased using non-neutral wording and phrasing. I ask Mooretwin to either remove the message or edit it to make it neutral (such as the various messages are that I posted to a variety of projects which the articles would be relevant to by virtue of dealing with UK geographical topics, and/or which have project templates on the corresponding talk pages.)  DDStretch  (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: the caps indicate that it's not just any old area of outstanding natural beauty, but a site which has an official government label. The caps are useful and appropriate. See usage at http://www.aonb.org.uk/. First 4 pages of Ghits produce 3 items using lower case, 1 of which is the WP article from a brief point in time when it had been edited to use lower case, since reverted. PamD (talk) 16:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose It is a proper noun referring to a specific legal status. It is not descriptive. Proper nouns are capitalized in English. --Bejnar (talk) 06:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

So it's more than 72 hours since the move was requested (just before 01:00GMT on 12/12) and we have had a lot of comment. The guidance is to wait a "few days" for consensus. Do we now have consensus that the move should not be allowed? --TimTay (talk) 08:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

wheres the list of them?

i expected to see a listing of the different areas. where is it? 78.146.240.209 (talk) 14:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

There's a link to them at the bottom of the article. ♦ Jongleur¹⁰⁰ ♦ ^talk 16:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move again

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Jenks24 (talk) 16:50, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

---

Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty → Area of outstanding natural beautyArea of outstanding natural beauty – The claims that this is an official proper name are totally bogus. All the related official laws and documents use lower case; of course a specific area "X Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty" can make the words part of a name, but the official designation is clearly lower case in the law that defines it and in lots of other sources. The 2008 RM seems to have been closed on the basis the many sources capitalize it, without regard for WP's MOS:CAPS, which says we only capitalize for proper names, not for the variety of other reasons that others use. Dicklyon (talk) 17:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

See this law (Part IV, sections 90 and thereabouts, or search the full PDF). Dicklyon (talk) 18:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per all the points made in the previous discussion. Current Government style in relation to AONBs generally is set out, for example, here, para. 167 - "...protecting landscape and scenic beauty in National Parks, the Broads and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty...." Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:09, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

But as I mentioned, all of those supporting capitalization before failed to address WP's MOS guidelines on capitalization. Are you saying we should redefine WP style to follow the style of a 2011 draft planning document now? If you look more broadly, you do find many capitalized usage, as well as many lower case, as well as some that only capitalize "Area" (as in "Cotswold Area of outstanding natural beauty") and many that only lower case area (area of Outstanding Natural Beauty). We can't hope to follow all these styles, so why not follow our own? Dicklyon (talk) 18:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Whatever I may think about the MOS, the term AONB, used within the UK, is a proper noun. The claim that "All the related official laws and documents use lower case", is, to use your terminology, "totally bogus". Laws may do, per their normal style, but government departments, other official bodies and general usage support the use of capitals. I'm sure that all countries have their own areas of outstanding natural beauty, but only England, Wales and N Ireland have Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, and it is those that this article is about. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:44, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support the law is nine-tenths of possession. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 23:00, 16 October 2011 (UTC) <Redacted - pardon my faulty maths> the law is ten-ninths of possession --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 08:04, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support—that's right: under that law, it's an area of natural beauty. Looks awkward and unprofessional to litter it with eye-poking caps, needlessly. "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalisation", the guideline says. Tony (talk) 01:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support. After plowing through the full PDF of the law linked above: Dicklyon seems to have the law on their side. Drmies (talk) 04:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose – Caps are used for this phrase by those using it in a professional capacity: see National Association for Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, Natural England, Countryside Council for Wales, Scottish Natural Heritage, Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs, the National Trust (etc., etc.). I note, however, that the Environment Agency uses both forms (upper & lower case). Nevertheless, the capitalised form is the Common name and, as Ghmyrtle says above - government departments, other official bodies and general usage support the use of capitals. Daicaregos (talk) 09:24, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

  Bogus – Your links do not show what you claim: Countryside Council for Wales has it only in a heading, so not relevant; Scottish Natural Heritage has it lower-case. The others capitalize it because it's what they're promoting, so should be discounted. There is no evidence that it's a proper name, and the fact that many capitalize it is not a reason to go against MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 03:13, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Bogus? You are mistaken (see how easy it is to AGF?) in your assertion that the Countryside Council of Wales “has it only in a heading, so not relevant”. Basic research of the search facility on their website shows your assumption to be false e.g. here, here and here. Please substantiate your claim that Scottish Heritage use the phrase in lower case. Please explain why you think that bodies, such as the National Trust, are promoting upper case use of AONB and why their use should be discounted if they are. Hundreds of examples exist showing upper case use of the phrase. I chose official bodies as examples because they should know what they are talking about. Nevertheless: the BBC “Opponents say the complex would ruin the landscape in what is an official Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.”; Financial Times “As well as more castles than anywhere else in England, the region has two designated Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty … “; Daily Telegraph “The Draft National Planning Policy Framework, unveiled in July by the Department for Communities and Local Government, safeguards the status of National Parks, Sites of Special Scientific Interest and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty.”; The Guardian “Bristol airport is situated in the Green Belt of rural North Somerset close to the Mendip Hills an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty" and scholarly book after book after book. Daicaregos (talk) 22:31, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose – I cannot see any benefit in moving to a non-cap version, when the capped version is so very commonly used, by so many authoritative sources. The several less frequent variants thereof serve to contrast with how widely this term is used in its fully-capped form. The assertion that the most authoritative source of all (the Act) dissents from this use may be true. Even if it is, usage in the Act is not of sufficient weight to justify overturning all the other sources, which whilst individually less notable - and in some cases, such as formal use by Natural England, only very slightly so - are far more numerous. It seems to me that the OP is using this specific renaming process to make the more general point that use of written language and in this case specifically capitalisation should always be modified in order to fit exactly with the letter of the law. That's a defensible stance, and an interesting proposition. But I don't think it's one that should be debated here in this way. Naturenet | Talk 10:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per usage in authoritative sources, and being a proper noun of a legal status. This is the same type of article as Special Protection Area, Area of Conservation, Local Nature Reserve, Environmentally Sensitive Area, Site of Special Scientific Interest and Scheduled monument, so the decision here should apply to those articles. Some of them were already mentioned in the previous move request. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:00, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. The only argument for the move seems to be a legalistic interpretation of WP:CAPS and similar guidelines. The purpose of the title is to identify its contents; This isn't about just any area of outstanding beauty, but about a particular list. It's for exactly the purpose of making such distinctions that proper nouns are capitalised in English. Perhaps the guidelines do need some tweaking. Andrewa (talk) 17:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Rather surprised this is being raised again: previous arguments against were conclusive. These two statements are the ones which do it: firstly, usage of caps in legislation is not the same as in general usage, and secondly (and sufficiently), general usage is with caps, and on WP we follow general usage. Any contrary view has to explain why both of these are wrong. There are very many similar examples, and indeed some exceptions (such as ancient woodland, which logically ought to be capitalised but rarely is). There is a long history of general usage differing from the relevant legislation – for example, for fifty years (1949 to 2000) the main Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) legislation did not use the phrase "site of special scientific interest" at all, caps or no caps! Even the words used were not consistent: for many years the "I" stood for "Importance". I'm afraid those of us with an excessively pedantic nature sometimes just have to leave things "wrong". Richard New Forest (talk) 13:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Maps

I've replaced the old map with a new one. The old map was not very clearly drawn, and is out of date as it showed the South Downs (now a National Park) as an AONB. However, the new map does not show Northern Ireland, and a request to the Graphics Lab for an NI-specific map (or expanding the new England and Wales map) has not so far produced results. I will try again. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:37, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Deleted Promotional Material

I removed the PR puffery added by Handlens, but I've included a wikified version of the link to Landscape scale conservation that he/she wanted. 86.6.26.122 (talk) 17:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Beautiful pictures

People can see pictures and post to facebook Manma emotion (talk) 09:19, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

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New map to include NI?

Given that the article deals with AONBs in England, Wales and Northern Ireland it's a shame that the map only covers the first two - might someone with the ability to do so, create a new version of the AONB map or, alternatively a second one for N Ireland alone. thanks Geopersona (talk) 05:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but you need to make the request here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:20, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Ghmyrtle - will do! Geopersona (talk) 07:16, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't know what happened to my request - can't seem to find any trace of it - but it could also do with the Clwydian Hills extent being revised as the area was extended south to the Dee valley. cheers Geopersona (talk) 13:24, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Could somebody else request (or make) the revised AONB map as it seems that my request has been lost! thanks Geopersona (talk) 12:00, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

The request was dealt with here, following which the NI AONB map was added to the article. If you want them combined on one map, it seems that the person who did the NI map couldn't do that, so you need to ask again. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:23, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

@GHMyrtle: My thanks to you for that - and indeed to RaviC - I'd been checking the graphics lab pages (though somehow missed that entry) rather than the AONBs page - a combined map would still be preferable I think though useful to have that other. The issue of the England & Wales one being considerably out of date remains a real issue for the article. cheers Geopersona (talk) 12:48, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

And it needs now to take account of the extension of the Suffolk Coast & Heaths AONB. cheers Geopersona (talk) 05:36, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

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Re-name discussion

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#AONBs are no more on AONBs being re-named National Landscape and whether it applies to NI, leading to a potential split if the article is re-named. DankJae 13:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

What is the progress on this now? National Landscape is now the establish term, so doesn't this AONB page become an anachronism in its current form?

ClivePIA (talk) 16:13, 7 January 2026 (UTC)

If you have any evidence that "National Landscape" is more used over "Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty" you are free to propose a RM to National Landscape (England and Wales) or just National Landscape (assuming primacy as per the redirect). Although AONB remains the legal term, so not fully phased out to be an anachronism.

But I note as Northern Ireland doesn't have National Landscapes but still has AONBs, should a move occur, NI would be split off as Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (Northern Ireland). In the end, NI's are regulated by different laws entirely. Had no imminent plans, but might look into a move as you've raised it and prepare an NI article based on the one I did for Wales. DankJae 23:45, 7 January 2026 (UTC)

Funnily enough I thought about this today, so I've opened up a move request. Great minds? A.D.Hope (talk) 21:30, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

Rebrand: update

I've put together a table showing which National Landscapes have updated their websites and which are still AONBs. Wales hasn't updated at all, which I know @DankJae is aware of, but England is mostly there – the Chilterns and North Norfolk are the only ones not to use NL branding at all, with the former still being an AONB and the latter using distinct 'protected landscape' branding.

Name	NL?	Website	Notes
England
Arnside and Silverdale	Yes	arnsidesilverdaleaonb.org.uk/
Blackdown Hills	Yes
Cannock Chase	Yes	cannock-chase.co.uk/	Uses 'AONB' as a subtitle
Chichester Harbour	Yes	conservancy.co.uk/	Uses 'Chichester Harbour Conservacy' as main brand
Chilterns	No	chilternsaonb.org/
Cornwall	Yes	cornwall-landscape.org/
Cotswolds	Yes	www.cotswolds-nl.org.uk/
Cranborne Chase and West Wiltshire Downs	Yes	cranbornechase.org.uk/
Dedham Vale	Yes	dedhamvale-nl.org.uk/
Dorset	Yes	dorset-nl.org.uk/
East Devon	Yes	eastdevon-nl.org.uk/
Forest of Bowland	Yes	forestofbowland.com/
High Weald	Yes	highweald.org/
Howardian Hills	Yes	howardianhills.org.uk/
Isle of Wight	Yes	wightaonb.org.uk/
Isles of Scilly	Yes	islesofscilly-nl.org.uk/	Uses 'AONB' as a subtitle
Kent Downs	Yes	kentdowns.org.uk/
Lincolnshire Wolds	Partial	lincswolds.org.uk/	Gives 'AONB' equal weight
Malvern Hills	Yes	malvernhills-nl.org.uk/
Mendip Hills	Yes	mendiphills-nl.org.uk/
Nidderdale	Partial	nidderdaleaonb.org.uk/	They're getting there, bless them
Norfolk Coast	No	norfolkcoast.org/	Seems to have unique branding as part of a 'protected landscape'
North Devon Coast	Yes	northdevon-aonb.org.uk/
North Pennines	Yes	northpennines.org.uk/
Northumberland Coast	Yes	northumberlandcoast-nl.org.uk/
North Wessex Downs	Yes	northwessexdowns.org.uk/
Quantock Hills	Yes	quantockhills.com/
Shropshire Hills	Yes	shropshirehills-nl.org.uk/
Solway Coast	Yes	solwaycoastaonb.org.uk
South Devon	Yes	southdevonaonb.org.uk/
Suffolk Coast and Heaths	Yes	coastandheaths-nl.org.uk/
Surrey Hills	Yes	surreyhills.org/
Tamar Valley	Yes	tamarvalley.org.uk/
Wye Valley	Yes	wyevalley-nl.org.uk/
Wales
Anglesey	No	https://www.anglesey.gov.wales/en/Residents/Countryside/Areas-of-Outstanding-Natural-Beauty-AONBs/Anglesey-Area-of-Outstanding-Natural-Beauty-AONB.aspx	The AONB does not have a dedicated website
Clwydian Range and Dee Valley	No	clwydianrangeanddeevalleyaonb.org.uk/
Gower	No	swansea.gov.uk/aonb?lang=en	The AONB does not have a dedicated website
Llŷn	No	ahne-llyn-aonb.org/Home

I envisage keeping this updated as the rebrand continues. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Surprised Cotswold abandoned their original National Landscape branding as the first one to have it year(s) ago tbh. Per UKGEO discussion, I think there is to be an announcement for Wales' soon hence why none have done it (yet). Still nothing on NI? I assume this would merely be the beginning of building a case for a move, but I think secondary sources would quickly adopt the change, so unless there is a desire to move it all at once, if the website is mostly National Landscape and lets say three news sources about the NL generally (not on the name change), use the new name then WP:NAMECHANGES can apply.

Although we need to consider whether this article is to reform into NL (therefore separating NI), or keep the current status arguing AONB is the legal term. But still early stages. DankJae 21:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

In terms of secondary sources they're still catching up – the BBC is still using both terms, for example (AONB, National Landscape). I'd say we still need to wait a while, but it looks like the new name will be widely adopted in the media.

Keeping one article makes the most sense to me. All National Landscapes are designated AONBs, after all, so functionally speaking they're the same thing despite the two names. A.D.Hope (talk) 11:41, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

oh my god, Nidderdale, indeed bless them DankJae 12:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, the first one Dedham Vale has since been moved to Dedham Vale National Landscape by @Mark999. DankJae 16:04, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm still a bit hesitant. Without doing a full check, 'AONB' still seems quite popular. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:13, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, Mark999 did them all anyway. DankJae 16:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Right. Maybe we need to direct them toward this discussion? A.D.Hope (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Tbh, it would've happened anyway, was looking at proposing the Cornish one to move, as I have seen articles use NL. Unless you oppose these greatly. Slightly annoyed our more careful approach was torpedoed, but expected it tbh. We'll see if anyone else has great opposition. DankJae 16:30, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, I doubt Mark999 knew, it's very easy to miss discussions on Wikipedia unless you know where to look.

I don't greatly oppose anything, but I'd prefer we properly considered the change so that we don't jump the gun. The rebrand is still very new, we don't want to unduly surprise readers who are still looking for AONBs. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:32, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Just to quickly give some examples, Reach Plc and the BBC have both used 'AONB' in the past month, but examples of 'National Landscape' are appearing. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry didn't mean to get in the way of a discussion already, the majority do seem to be branded as National Landscapes now, it really depends on source, I think the reason a lot still mention AONB on websites ect is because ultimately they are small organisations that don't have the resources for a full rebrand, for instance it looks like all the new logos were centrally designed. So I think you will find AONB every increasing phased out going forward. I did plan on trying to expand some of the smaller articles too as some are very sparce! Mark999 (talk) 19:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Don't worry, as I said above it's hard to find discussions sometimes. Now you've moved the articles it's probably not worth moving them back, although whether or not to move this article is a slightly different question. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:49, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi A.D.Hope, the Chilterns are now branding themselves as "Chilterns National Landscape". Judging by a website, which I'm unsure of how safe it is for sharing here due to a suspect URL, the name changed before 2024-03-28. Tæppa (talk) 21:27, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

It may or may not have been referred to earlier but, of the Welsh examples, I see that Gower (alone) is now treferred to as a National Landscape - https://www.swansea.gov.uk/gowernationallandscape?lang=en Geopersona (talk) 07:12, 9 January 2026 (UTC)

Why is the rest of Ireland not included?

Would be a good topic to address. As a tourist I’d like to know about the full country 185.147.89.117 (talk) 08:01, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

AONBs only apply to Northern Ireland, as well as other parts of the UK. The rest of Ireland doesn’t have AONBs nor part of the United Kingdom. DankJae 08:55, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Ireland has seven national parks - see too https://www.nationalparks.ie/ Then there are the non-statutory Geoparks of which there are five in the island as a whole, one of which is transnational. Even within the UK, AONBs in Northern Ireland differ slightly from those in England and Wales as they were established under different legislation.Geopersona (talk) 12:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Essex (Tendring District) is not shown as part of the Suffolk and Essex AONB

Part of Essex (Tendring District) is within the AONB, specifically the area near Mistley. 213.78.136.248 (talk) 06:50, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

You referring to the table? If so, added it now. DankJae 09:09, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 8 February 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. – robertsky (talk) 16:16, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

---

Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty → National Landscape – It's been over two years since AONBs in England and Wales became National Landscapes, so it's time to formally discuss a move. All of the AONBs except four now use the 'National Landscapes' branding, and only two of those four use 'AONB'. The name is regularly used in the media, including by the BBC, Times, Independent, LBC, Telegraph, and in local papers.

If the move is successful it should incorporate a split of the information about Northern Irish Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which are organised on a different legal basis and now have a different public name to their English and Welsh counterparts.

I wasn't sure whether to organise this discussion as a move or a split, but the result of any change should be something along the lines of:

• National Landscape, containing the bulk of the content from this article
• Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, containing the information relevant to Northern Ireland AONBs
• Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (England and Wales), a redirect to National Landscape
• AONB, a disambiguation to National Landscape and Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty

A.D.Hope (talk) 21:29, 8 February 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 07:50, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

• Support, ​ great timing currently have Draft:Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (Northern Ireland), in the end they are two separate designations under different legislation so should be split. I think "Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty" should still redirect to this article as most readers would connect to it here, and it is a WP:DABONE instance, hatnotes can do. Otherwise support, almost all of them, including multiple in Wales which were slow, have adopted "National Landscape" branding and most sources have done too. DankJae 22:02, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

Weak support for the move: I agree that it's probably time to reorganise the content and have most of the E&W content at an article called National Landscape. I don't have strong feelings about whether this article is moved vs the relevant content split out to the NL page – on balance, yes, it probably should be moved, to preserve the page history in the location where the majority of the content will end up.

I do think we need to be careful about how the split is done. I'm open to arguments to the contrary but my immediate thoughts are:

• AONB should NOT be a disambiguation page – that should continue to redirect to Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.
• Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty needs to still be about the topic as a whole, not only about NI AONBs.
• We should use WP:SUMMARY style on the Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty page to reduce the quantity of detail about E&W areas, and direct readers to {{main|National Landscape}}.

Joe D (t) 22:04, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

@Steinsky, "Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty" between England and Wales, and Northern Ireland merely only shared a name, not legislation or anything else. So a small section/sentence remaining here and a hatnote pointing to a split off article surely be all that is needed. It can't really be avoided now as they no longer share a name with each other. Make sense to have two "AONB" articles for the two "AONB" legal designations, but one renamed "National Landscape"? More important as many sources incorrectly state AONBs in NI were established by the England and Wales law or are to adopt "National Landscape", which they both aren't. My suggestion is for "Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (Northern Ireland)" with a DAB, as in most instances AONB and NL are the same, except the eight in NI.

So:

• National Landscape for England and Wales, formerly Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (still redirects here)
• Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (Northern Ireland), for Northern Ireland.

Of course, one sentence in either to point to the other. DankJae 22:14, 8 February 2026 (UTC)

Do we need to disambiguate the new NI article in its title if it will be the only one titled 'Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty'?

I agree with you, DankJae, that there's not much point in maintaining an overall 'AONB' article to cover the English, Welsh, and Northern Irish areas collectively. Such an article will duplicate information from the new 'National Landscape' and NI articles and could imply they have more in common than they do in reality. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:42, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

I don’t think the 8 in NI are the primary topic for the term yet, as it is still too recent and many NLs still use AONB secondarily, and remains the name legally in England and Wales. So in this ONEOTHER case, the 38 in England and Wales seem to warrant it more for now. Should most NLs stop using it altogether and fall out of mainstream use then NI’s could be considered primary then to trim off the disambiguation tag. DankJae 13:40, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

Is primacy an issue where two articles won't share a title? In this case we're moving 'Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty' to 'National Landscape', so the former is free to be used without disambiguation for the NI article. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:30, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

Still believe that it is a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT case, most readers will still be familiar with the 38 former AONBs as AONBs rather than the eight in NI. DankJae 14:46, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

I would prefer to use a 'For... see...' hatnote on the NI article directing readers looking for National Lancscapes here. We can always monitor the traffic and move the NI page if it becomes obvious most readers are looking for this article. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:37, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

I guess, wait to see if any other opinions arise, but my draft intends to keep the tag for now. DankJae 20:02, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the history of the AONB policies to be certain, but my worry is that this might be an overly technical/legalistic interpretation. Of course they have different legislation, because the nations have different legal and legislative foundations, so behind the scenes any shared policy goal between the UK nations will typically require some bespoke legislation. What really matters is whether ultimately, in common usage, the ordinary person would see these as essentially the same thing. The fact that they were merged into one article for so many years implies that there was agreement that they were essentially the same thing - we wouldn't merge two unrelated topics just because they share a name, we'd have used disambiguation. In this case, it can hardly be a coincidence that both pieces of legislation used the very specific name "area of outstanding natural beauty", when so many other options would have been just as obvious choices. Presumably the NI legislation was making conscious reference to the E&W AONBs because it intended them to be essentially the same thing.

I don't have time to look into it all properly, but after a very very brief look around, I can see that the National Landscape Association includes AONBs in NI (see their strategy, and their website has various pages covering NI). Presumably the NLA and its member partnerships see the legislative differences as a technicality, and treat NI areas equal with E&W areas.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but as yet I'm unconvinced that these should be treated as unrelated topics that by an astonishing coincidence share a very specific name. Joe D (t) 11:18, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

• Support rename. I didn't see this RM via the requested moves page, but by searching 'AONB' as I was curious about conservation areas and forgot it was renamed including in Google maps. But anyway, as seen by earlier discussions above, it seems like the name has caught by the end of 2023 and it could've been renamed at that point. Google maps still says 'Cotswolds AONB' which might be one of the few in E&W to still be called AONB and not NL.

• I do agree that if an article about the AONBs in NI (which is still called AONB there) is created and if this RM is successful, then AONB should (still) redirect to National Landscape per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT as E&W has a population of 60m while NI has 2m and that some people forgot that AONBs are now called NL in E&W. JuniperChill (talk) 17:23, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

  @JuniperChill, The Cotswolds' website uses National Landscape as raised above. Google Maps and Apple do allow suggested edits, I remembered it used to be "National Landscape" for a while, but every now and again many of them keep switching between the two, may be someone requested it revert to AONB for some reason. Note Tamar Valley currently has a typo (for me) as "Tamar Valley AONBZ", so there has been some suggested edits? DankJae 18:51, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

  • Ah ok, its odd that Google still hasn't updated Cotswolds couple years after it was renamed to NL. Its like Google sometimes forgetting to update motorway closures and either shows green or nothing at all in the traffic layer. JuniperChill (talk) 21:20, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The government still appears to refer to them as AONBs and most other sources seem to use either that or both names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:58, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

  Necrothesp, you've picked one of the only AONBs that still goes by AONB as an example. If you refer to the URLs in the table in the 'Rebrand: update' section above then you can see that all but four AONBs now refer to themselves publicly as 'National Landscapes', and two of the four exceptions don't use AONB.

  The legal name of National Landscapes remains 'AONB', so it won't fall entirely out of use, but it has been replaced as the common name among the National Landscapes themselves and in much of the media. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

  The government has also used National Landscape. That gov source dates to 2017 originally. Considering almost all the AONBs themselves have adopted National Landscape, as stated in the section above, in their branding, those surely should be given more weight as they are the areas themselves over some possibly old council webpages (or a subpage over the home page of a National Landscape). "AONB" is still used in statutory settings but that does not override if the area now uses National Landscape publicly. Each of those councils has had some other webpage using "National Landscape". As well as other councils using "National Landscape".

  Per Google News, over the last year there have been 3,390 articles with "Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty" and 8,370 using "National Landscape". Pointing to that there's been a WP:NAMECHANGE of the WP:COMMONNAME. DankJae 19:44, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

  Necrothesp, you've picked one of the only AONBs that still goes by AONB as an example. Strange. I could have sworn I picked four! My point was that AONB is clearly still in common usage (and is probably still the common name outside officialdom), not that National Landscapes isn't used. That gov source dates to 2017 originally. Indeed, but it was updated in 2024 and is still current. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:50, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

  I do feel you're giving undue weight to the relatively few sources that have continued to use AONB after 2023. There are 34 areas that use 'national landscape' in their name, and you have ignored them all. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:21, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

  Please (a) reread what I actually wrote and (b) take note of WP:OFFICIAL. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:06, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject UK geography, WikiProject Biota of Great Britain and Ireland, and WikiProject Urban studies and planning have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 07:50, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

• Support move to National Landscape, given the fact of the name change (which I personally think was a horrible mistake). AONB and Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty should both redirect there, with a hatnote referring readers to Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (Northern Ireland). The National Landscape article will continue to be the primary topic for "AONB". (I live in one of these areas, and people talk about "the AONB", as in "no, Tuesday is my AONB volunteering day", because "the National Landscape" or "the NL" is nothing nearly as distinctive a term, although we're gradually using it more "this is sponsored by the AONB, oh, you know, the National Landscape as it now is".)— Preceding unsigned comment added by PamD (talk • contribs) 09:58, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

• Comment. Just to aid the closer, and bearing in mind that this is not a vote, would it be acceptable for everone who has so far participated (except @Necrothesp, presumably) if the outcome of this RM was simply moving this article to 'National Landscape'? What to do about other articles and redirects, where there seems to be less consensus, can always be discussed separately later. @DankJae, @JuniperChill, @PamD, @Steinsky, @TarnishedPath. A.D.Hope (talk) 08:43, 21 February 2026 (UTC)

  OK by me. PamD 09:09, 21 February 2026 (UTC)

  Following a move, I plan to publish my draft as it is, but happy for any discussion afterwards on any wider changes between these articles or the title of my draft. DankJae 09:27, 21 February 2026 (UTC)

  Fine by me. This discussion was focusing on renaming AONB to NL anyway, not about creating a dedicated AONB for NI. JuniperChill (talk) 20:03, 21 February 2026 (UTC)

  Yep, fine. Joe D (t) 10:52, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.