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Talk:Nakba

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Latest comment: 28 days ago by Yuvalko8 in topic Edit request: Plan Dalet

Core sources

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Latest comment: 1 year ago7 comments3 people in discussion

Works marked with an asterisk (*) are already cited in this Wikipedia article.

21st-century "classics"

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Highly-cited (100s of cites) 21st-century books by highly-cited authors (and more-recent works by those same authors):

General

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21st-century academically-reviewed books:

21st-century well-cited academic papers/chapters:

Nakba in culture

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21st-century academically-reviewed books:

21st-century well-cited academic papers/chapters:

Nakba and genocide studies

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21st-century academically-reviewed books:

21st-century well-cited academic papers/chapters:

Nakba denial / Nakba memory

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21st-century well-cited academic papers/chapters:

Discussion (core sources)

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Additions/subtractions? Levivich (talk) 03:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi Levivich, happy to add here - could you explain the objective? There are many more relevant books in the article bibliography, and in google books. Not to mention the various sources in Arabic (e.g. Ma'na an-Nakba). Onceinawhile (talk) 17:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
The objective is to identify the major books about Nakba -- the "best" sources. I had missed two books already in the article, which I just added to this list, but I think at this point all the books in the article are on this list. Did I miss any others? In addition to those, there are, listed above, books that should be cited in the article, but aren't. Are there any others? The article relies too much on not-the-best sources: newspaper articles, kind-of-obscure journal papers, etc., which can and ought to be replaced with better sources, like the major books by major scholars in the field. No doubt there are foreign-language books about Nakba as well, but I've only looked at English books. Levivich (talk) 18:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
In that case, your list - prioritizing Pappe and Morris - is incorrectly weighted. They are absolutely core to the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight, which is the story of what the Israelis did to the Palestinians. But the Nakba is a wider topic, about the overall Palestinian collective trauma.
I can bring more sources, but we should iron this difference out first.
Onceinawhile (talk) 20:27, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
I didn't really intend this list to be weighted, except that the "classics" have like 10x or 100x the citations of other books on the list, so I separated them, and then I looked for any more-recent books by the same authors about Palestine, so we can see what if anything they changed or added in their writing about Nakba since they wrote their "classics." The classics, like all classics, are widely-cited, but relatively old. That's why I think it's important to look at newer sources and not just the classics.
I don't necessarily think classics should be given more weight than newer sources. In instances where newer sources say something different than the classics, we need to pay attention to that. We need to determine if the mainstream scholarly views have changed, or if new significant minority views have emerged, or what. One example: did Nakba start and end in 1948, or did it begin before 48, and/or continue after 48? My sense that scholarship has moved on those questions since Pappe 2006 and Masalha 2012, and I'd be keen on looking at how more recent sources describe the timeline of Nakba (and also what Pappe and Masalha have said in more recent writings on the topic, including papers and not just books).
I'm not entirely sure how to handle Morris. My gut instinct is that Morris represents a significant minority view on Nakba (or maybe more specifically, the causes of the Nakba). I see that other scholars discuss Morris's views, particularly in relation to Pappe's, and both Morris and Pappe discuss each other's views, and the Wikipedia article mentions them already. I was going to see how the most recent scholarship handled Morris. It may be one of those cases where Morris is talked about in the article more than used as a source for the article (and maybe same with Pappe).
For now, though, I'm just looking to collect the most in-depth, widely-cited, reputable works about Nakba... i.e., books by scholars reviewed in some academic journal, the more citations the better. That could obviously be expanded to book chapters and journal articles, but I think books is a good place to start because they will have the most depth. Levivich (talk) 21:03, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
You could retitle the "classics" as "highly cited" instead, if people object? It's not a huge issue, and I realise I'm about a year late, but wanted to offer a solution if needed. Lewisguile (talk) 18:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I added some papers that had decent cite counts, reorganized the list by topic, and clarified inclusion criteria. Levivich (talk) 16:08, 24 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Outline

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Latest comment: 2 years ago10 comments5 people in discussion

Discussion (outline)

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A work in progress, but thoughts? Levivich (talk) 22:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

👍 Like nableezy - 23:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
The current structure is nothing to particularly write home about, so yeah, like. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
Hired. ) Selfstudier (talk) 12:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thanks! Levivich (talk) 01:14, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm adding to the outline links to other articles, and sub-topics (where I'm not aware of an article to link), that I think are WP:DUE per the sources listed in each outline section. Please speak up if you think anything should be added or removed. Also, as the outline will be changing, just note that folks' approval/disapproval at any given point in time may no longer apply to a later, changed version of the outline. Levivich (talk) 01:14, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think this outline is missing coverage of notable opposing narratives, namely the Israeli national narrative which is currently covered in the section 'Opposition to the notion of Nakba'. Marokwitz (talk) 10:46, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
I expect that'll be covered in historiography and memory section; I haven't gotten to expanding those parts of the outline yet (and probably won't for a while, still on the history section right now). Levivich (talk) 22:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I've added article links to the history section in the outline above. If anyone thinks there are other articles that should be linked in the history section of the Nakba article, or that we shouldn't be linking to something that is listed in the outline, please let me know. Levivich (talk) 20:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I've added a very small bare-bones start to the History section of the article, and struck through the links on the outline that are now in the article. My plan is to expand the history section until all the links in the outline are in the article, then move on to the other sections. I may move some links to other parts of the outline and reorganize the outline a bit as I go. Levivich (talk) 05:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Edit request: Land Ownership

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Latest comment: 29 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The article states that "At the time [1947], Arabs... owned about 90% of the land..." which is impossible given that 50–70% of the mandate was actually state land rather than privately owned.[1] According to the 1945 Village Statistics released by the British Mandate, Arabs held approximately 47–48% of the land, a figure that includes both legal ownership (mulk) and tax-derived usufruct rights (miri).[2] Similarly, Benny Morris notes that 50% of the territory was state land while Jews and Zionists owned 6-7%,[3] implying that Palestinian Arabs owned approximately 43–44%. Palestinian Historian Sami Hadawi calculated that Palestinians owned 47.79% of the mandate's land.[4] Furthermore, Donna Robinson Divine estimates that Arab ownership before 1948 amounted to between 4.2 and 5.8 million dunams, representing 16–22% of the total territory.[5] My edit request is to change the misleading statement regarding land ownership to align with these verifiable historical and demographic data. Thanks in advance. Yuvalko8 (talk) 21:12, 4 July 2026 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ↑ Survey of Palestine, Vol. I, 1945-1946, VIII.82, p. 257
  2. ↑ Village Statistics, 1945, p. 3, "Grand Total"
  3. ↑ Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 18: "About 50 per cent of Palestine’s land mass – most of it in the Negev – was state land while Zionist organisations and individual Jews owned 6–7 per cent."
  4. ↑ Sami Hadawi, Land Ownership in Palestine, Palestine Arab Refugee Office, 1957, p. 15
  5. ↑ Donna Robinson Divine, "Citizenship and Democracy in Israel", in Ilan Troen, Anita Shapira, eds., Essential Israel, Indiana University Press, 2017, p. 217

Edit Request: Ethnic Cleansing

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Latest comment: 29 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

As a follow-up to my denied edit request, I have refined it and would now like to expand the following paragraph: "Other scholars, such as Yoav Gelber,[169] Benny Morris,[170] and Seth J. Frantzman,[171] disagree that the Nakba constitutes an ethnic cleansing."
Specifically, I would like to add the following scholars to this list: Leslie Stein,[1] Asaf Romirowsky and Alexander H. Joffe,[2] Eliezer Ben-Rafael,[3] Walter E. Block and Alan G. Futerman,[4] Steven E. Zipperstein,[5] and Udi Manor.[6]
My previous edit was rejected because it included scholars who characterize the Nakba as ethnic cleansing while merely rejecting its systematic nature or premeditated planning; those scholars have now been excluded from this updated list. Yuvalko8 (talk) 21:24, 4 July 2026 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ↑ Leslie Stein, "Rewriting Israel’s History", in Shofar, Vol. 30, No. 1, Fall 2011, p. 129: "At the other end of the spectrum Ilan Pappé is far less interested in the veracity of his sources and is far more concerned to denigrate the entire Zionist enterprise by falsely accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing."
  2. ↑ Asaf Romirowsky, Alexander H. Joffe, Religion, Politics, and the Origins of Palestine Refugee Relief, Palgrave Macmillan, 2013, p. 14: "These and other claims of widespread “ethnic cleansing,” “war crimes,” and Israeli “racism” are now central to revisionist studies... all of whom deliberately straddle and conflate scholarship and advocacy.
  3. ↑ Eliezer Ben-Rafael, "Where stands Israel?", in Ethnic and Racial Studies, 27:2, 2004, p. 313: "In any case, what happened on the ground cannot be called 'ethnic cleansing' in the sense of the massacres, rape, and destruction that the concept denoted in Yugoslavia."
  4. ↑ Walter E. Block, Alan G. Futerman, The Classical Liberal Case for Israel, Springer Nature Singapore Pte Ltd., 2021, p. 95: "As we can see, there is no way to justify the contention that there was either a deliberate plan of “expulsion” or “ethnic cleansing” during Israel’s War of Independence... there was neither a systematic plan executed to expel Arabs per se nor any “ethnic cleansing” whatsoever."
  5. ↑ Steven E. Zipperstein, The Legal Case for Palestine: A Critical Assessment, Routledge, 2024, p. 56: "Moreover, the above figures negate the related Palestinian claim that Israel has engaged in “ethnic cleansing” of the Palestinian population. The only population in the Middle East who experienced ethnic cleansing during the past century were the more than one million Jewish inhabitants of Arab countries..."
  6. ↑ Udi Manor, quoted in Or Kashti, "For the first time: A high school textbook presents the Palestinian claim of "ethnic cleansing" in '48", [Hebrew], Haaretz, https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/education/2009-09-22/ty-article/0000017f-f5c6-d47e-a37f-fdfefda60000, 2009: "The use of the term 'ethnic cleansing' is incorrect; it is part of the jargon used by haters of Israel."

Edit request: Plan Dalet

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Latest comment: 28 days ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Description of suggested change: Currently only one view is represented in the article, while the majority view is not even mentioned. I propose using the following sources,[1] and changing it as follows:

Diff:

−
In early April 1948, the Israelis launched Plan Dalet, a large-scale offensive to capture land and empty it of Palestinian Arabs.
+
In early April 1948, the Jewish forces launched Plan Dalet. While some scholars have interpreted it as a large-scale offensive aimed at capturing territory and emptying it of its Palestinian Arab population, others either reject this interpretation altogether or argue that it was primarily a military plan designed to secure the territory allotted to the Jewish state and strategically important Jewish population centers in preparation for the anticipated invasion by the Arab states.

Yuvalko8 (talk) 17:13, 5 July 2026 (UTC)Reply

 Not done: Your proposed change is potentially controversial and will require a consensus before it can be implemented. Day Creature (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2026 (UTC)Reply
Is consensus actually required in order to address both points? I would have assumed that choosing one view over the other would require establishing consensus, but is that also the case when both perspectives are simply presented in the article? I genuinely don't know and would appreciate clarification if possible. Thanks. Yuvalko8 (talk) 17:38, 5 July 2026 (UTC)Reply
Yes, especially for an extremely contentious topic like this one. Anything that goes beyond correcting typos, formatting issues, basic factual errors, etc. is going to require consensus. A question like "how should Wikipedia characterize Plan Dalet" is the kind of thing that can be debated on a talk page for weeks. Since you are a new editor, my honest advice to you is to stay away from controversial subject matter like the Arab-Israeli conflict for now, and to gain experience editing in other areas instead. Day Creature (talk) 18:48, 5 July 2026 (UTC)Reply
Noted, thanks Yuvalko8 (talk) 19:13, 5 July 2026 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ↑
    • Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 164
    • Tom Segev, A State at Any Cost: The Life of David Ben-Gurion, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2019, p. 430.
    • Baruch Kimmerling, Joel S. Migdal, The Palestinian People: A History, p. Harvard University Press, 2003, p. 158
    • Avi Shlaim, The Iron Wall, W. W. Norton & Company, 1999, p. 31
    • Efraim Karsh, Palestine Betrayed, Yale University Press, 2010, pp. 235-236
    • Yoav Gelber, Palestine, 1948, Sussex Academic Press, 2001, p. 98
    • Anita Shapira, Israel: A History, Brandeis University Press, 2012, p. 161
    • Eran Kaplan, Derek J. Penslar, The Origins of Israel, 1882–1948: A Documentary History, The University of Wisconsin Press, 2011, p. 341
    • David Tal, War in Palestine, 1948: Israeli and Arab Strategy and Diplomacy, Routledge, 2004, p. 87
    • Mordechai Bar-on, "Cleansing history of its content: Some critical comments on Ilan Pappe's The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", in Journal of Israeli History: Politics, Society, Culture, 27:2, 2008, p. 273
    • Joseph Heller, The birth of Israel, 1945-1949, University Press of Florida, 2000, pp. 95, 142, 301
    • Alan Dowty, "The Arab-Israeli Conflict", in Ilan Troen, Rachel Fish, eds., Essential Israel, Indiana University Press, 2017, p. 97
    • Asaf Romirowsky, Alexander H. Joffe, Religion, Politics, and the Origins of Palestine Refugee Relief, Palgrave Macmillan, 2013, p. 14
    • Norman Rose, A senseless, squalid war, The Bodley Head, 2009, pp. 212-213
    • Hershel Edelheit, Abfaham J. Edelheit, History of Zionism: A Handbook and Dictionary, Routledge, 2018, p. 223.
    • Michael J. Cohen, "The Zionist Perspective", in Wm. Roger Louis, Robert W. Stookey, eds., The End of the Palestine Mandate, University of Texas Press, 1986, p. 95
    • Ingo Elbe, "Postcolonialism, Antisemitism, and Israel: The ‘Progressive’ Attack on the Jewish State and Holocaust Memory", in Ivo Ritzer, ed., On the Critique of Identity, Springer, 2024, p. 170, fn. 49
    • Arnon Golan, "The Spatial Outcome of the 1948 War and Prospects for Return ", in Eyal Benvenisti, Chaim Gans, Sari Hanafi, eds., Israel and the Palestinian Refugees, Springer, 2007, pp. 47-48
    • Leslie Stein, "Rewriting Israel’s History", in Shofar, Vol. 30, No. 1, Fall 2011, p. 138
    • Seth J. Frantzman, "Review of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe", in the Middle East Quarterly, Vol. 15, No. 2, Spring 2008, pp. 70-75
    • Joseph S. Spoerl, "Palestinians, Arabs, and the Holocaust", in Jewish Political Studies Review, Vol. 26, No. 1/2, Spring 2014, p. 39, fn. 121
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