Talk:Museum

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Why "Aerospace/Aviation museums is embedded in "Science"?

Hi, I wonder why "Aerospace (or Aviation)" museums don't have an entry for themselves. Their focus is quite specific and different from a museum that focus on "science" (which can be interpreted quite widely). Additionally, can anyone confirm if there is a "List of Aviation museums"? I couldn't find it!
Thanks & regards, DPdH (talk) 07:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Why are History Museums under Art museums?

Reading through the headers, there was nothing for history museums, but then they show up under art with little or no transition from one concept to the other. I think it should either be a separate section, or the section should be re-title Art and History Museums. History Museums merit their own category in that their collections often range outside the normal definition of art; moreover, the entry includes first-person interpreted historic house museums as history museums, which really can't be considered art museums by anyone. Best, Mragsdale (talk) 16:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi- I tried to clean-up this article as much as time allowed, but it is still a mess. It needs more citations and a lot of it seems like WP:OR to me. It's too bad, because this is an important article, please feel free to join in and straighten it up!! --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Controversies Section Bias

This section presents a stream of un-substantiated claims related to museums, describing what seems to be a list of gripes with the institution of a museum as a controversy that it is involved in using un-encyclopedic diction. --JHoltzman 02:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Living History Museums

Under open-air museums, shouldn't it list living history museums because they are a type of open-air museums? --Deannarcundiff (talk) 00:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

File:Bandar Abbas museum-Neanderthal child.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Should I bother adding mention of the Creation Museum?

Or would such an addition be almost instantaneously removed by people who love to use scare quotes (i.e. Creation "Museum")? 67.233.245.93 (talk) 17:50, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Dead Links

Source #7 under "Purpose": "for the increase and diffusion of knowledge." is a dead link. The working link is: http://www.si.edu/About/Mission (visited 09/27/2015) --68.97.5.108 (talk) 01:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

image added of a very small museum

Hi everyone,

IMHO most of the photos in this article give the impression that a museum is a very large building. Musuems can be of all sizes.\ Have added photo of very small open-aired museum that I got from browsing the 2015 photo competitions. I'm more than happy to discuss this.\Please post on my wiki page.ta Johnscotaus (talk) 07:43, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160416140958/http://backend.static.news.sina.com.tw/article/20160102/15879310.html to http://backend.static.news.sina.com.tw/article/20160102/15879310.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131024093225/http://www.louvre.fr/en/history-louvre to http://www.louvre.fr/en/history-louvre
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120223210450/http://www.cartermuseum.org/exhibitions/history to http://www.cartermuseum.org/exhibitions/history
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120406094115/http://www.artic.edu/aic/libraries/research/specialcollections/aic/exhibitions/ to http://www.artic.edu/aic/libraries/research/specialcollections/aic/exhibitions/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120224202804/http://library.clevelandart.org/museum_archives/exhibition/index.php to http://library.clevelandart.org/museum_archives/exhibition/index.php
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101207011611/http://camh.org/exhib_history.html to http://www.camh.org/exhib_history.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120224051929/http://www.corcoran.org/archives/index.php to http://www.corcoran.org/archives/index.php
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120615063340/http://www.daheshmuseum.org/history/exhibition_history.php to http://www.daheshmuseum.org/history/exhibition_history.php
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120303022655/http://dallasmuseumofart.org/Research/ExhibitionHistory/index.htm to http://dallasmuseumofart.org/Research/ExhibitionHistory/index.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080621232812/http://www.gocolorado.com/Article.aspx?articleId=a479ebf9-0fe2-4238-912c-cccfc231f5bc&type=Article to http://www.gocolorado.com/Article.aspx?articleId=a479ebf9-0fe2-4238-912c-cccfc231f5bc&type=Article
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.queermuseum.com/home/

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140519154448/http://www.ushmm.org/information/about-the-museum/mission-statement to http://www.ushmm.org/information/about-the-museum/mission-statement

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140318092332/http://whatisusa.info/the-largest-underwater-museum-in-the-world/ to http://whatisusa.info/the-largest-underwater-museum-in-the-world/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150923213916/http://www.detroitmona.com/mona_pop-up_museum.htm to http://www.detroitmona.com/mona_pop-up_museum.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121212063856/http://archives.icom.museum/vlmp/ to http://archives.icom.museum/vlmp/

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WP:ERA

I'm discussing this minor detail about BC/BCE in the article per WP:BRD.

It seems that going back several years (2014 at least), this article has had exactly one BC and one BCE, with no AD/CE eras. A couple days ago (3 Oct), User:Nationalmuseumofiran (currently blocked) added one more BCE, as part of a spam-like spree of adding that same image to several articles. I followed these up to correct for WP:ERA; that included this article earlier today (5 Oct). At that point, the article had two BC dates, and no other eras, establishing a consistent era style in this article for the first time.

Soon afterwards, User:Zymurgy reverted this with the comment Wp:era says don't change established era notation in an article unnecessarily - this has been bce for many months (which doesn't seem to be true) putting the article back to a mix of BC and BCE, contrary to ERA, which states: Do not change the established era style without seeking consensus to say why the style is inappropriate for the article in question.

So I'm reverting per ERA. Any are free to start a discussion on why BC might be specifically inappropriate for this article. --A D Monroe III (talk) 00:56, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi I don't think it's crucial whether it's BC or BCE, I randomly went back to the page in June or July 2017 to see what it was then and at that point it was BCE, hence my comment and rv. Not a scientific survey by any means. Go with whatever you think is best. Zymurgy (talk) 07:54, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Understood. Sorry to make so much about so little, but some get cranky about this sort thing. Thanks. --A D Monroe III^(talk) 16:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Great- if only all editing issues on WP were so easily resolved! Zymurgy (talk) 08:52, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

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Nomination of Portal:Museums for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Museums is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Museums until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:06, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Interactice map

Hello, it seems that the "interactive map" (caption, first picture) does not work. Even with correcting the spelling error (? musuems), the link then goes to the website in general. How to fix this? Ziko (talk) 09:53, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Marginalised American people section

I took American out of the heading because this page is about all museums not just America (I'm going to guess this section is somehow left over from a more focussed page maybe?). Anyway as the page stands a section only on American marginalised people was jarring. I inserted one international example, but to be honest I think this section could do with a rewrite from someone who can give it better international focus. DrThneed (talk) 03:44, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Coincidentally, I have just added a small section on the Decolonisation of museums, which is tangentially related to some of the content in this section. I mention it in passing - I am hoping that someone will tackle an article on this topic at some point, as it's pretty well covered in the literature and attracts quite a bit of media coverage from time to time. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 09:46, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Photo bias on page

Not sure why only large western art/antiquities museums are listed at the top of the page. It gives a very biased view of world culture. Changing it up to represent other cultures and topics. Myotus (talk) 15:26, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Sensible move, thank you for taking the time to make the change. Richard Nevell (talk) 17:16, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Map of museums all over the world link

The map used at the top of the page contains an external link that goes to TravelGeo a commercial map company not another Wikpedia page. The URL of the site has changed from "ShareMap.org" a site that just had advertising space to "travegeo.com" which now appears to sell services. I am unsure of Wikpedia's relationship with Travegeo/ShareMap. Having the link appears not to violate Wikipedia policy WP:EL. However, would it be more appropriate to have the link/graphic down under the External links section or at least identify it as an external link leading out of Wikipedia? Myotus (talk) 21:16, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Exhibition histories section removed

Several issues beyond the lack of representation of a worldwide view of the subject as already flagged. It lacks relevancy to the article with no real context and appears only to serve to promote the museums listed with outdated external links. No reason for adding it was given back in March 8, 2013‎. Myotus (talk) 01:04, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

there was a reason--letting readers connect to major exhibitions, which is especially relevant in the age of COVID. A mpre complete global listing is better (and very difficult to compile), but let us not let better be the enemy of good material. Rjensen (talk) 02:54, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Rjensen COVID is not a relevant argument. This section was put up way before COVID (2013) and these exhibits were in person not online exhibits. Additionally, the pages that are linked, (non-Wikipedia) if they are functional at all, are only to listings of past exhibits, not actual online exhibits. If the reason is to "connect readers to major exhibitions", then these large major museums should use their advertising budget for doing that, not use Wikipedia for free publicity. Additionally, the limited scope of the section focuses only on large western ART museums (the exception in the list is oddly the Canadian Museum of Nature) the section is very narrow in it focus (as pointed out for several years with no action taken to correct). My advice is instead getting into a revert edit war defending a badly executed section, please take it on, rewrite it, rebuild it and resubmit it when it is comprehensive and representative of all museums and no longer functions as marketing for a few large art museums. Myotus (talk) 04:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

" resubmit it when it is comprehensive and representative of all museums" that's the formula for mediocrity . Wait for someone else to achieve perfection and meanwhile erase/delete/stop until that is reached. the point about COVID is that museums depend much more on Wikipedia given all the restrictions worldwide. Rjensen (talk) 06:36, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Most Visited museums

SiefkinDR and Sparafucil I saw your edits to the second paragraph on world's largest and most visited museums and I wonder if the whole thing should be reworked a bit. That sentence seems to be more for vanity and bragging rights than for information. I propose moving the following sentence:

The world's largest and most visited museums include the Louvre in Paris, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City, the National Museum of China in Beijing, the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. the British Museum and National Gallery in London, and the Vatican Museums in Vatican City.

...to the "Most-visited museums" section AND then move that section below the Decolonization of museums" section as it seem to have more with the "See also" section. Thoughts? Myotus (talk) 20:57, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi SiefkinDR I have removed the link again. However, lets discuss here. I disagree with your logic "majority of top museums are art museums" to reinsert the list of most-visited art museums link. I am unsure what your use of the word "top" means. If is by importance, that is subjective and highly open to criticism. If most visited museums are art museums then they are already well represented in the link to the List of most-visited museums. List of largest art museums link is already in the "See also" section, do not see the need to include in anywhere else in the article.

"Most-visited museums" is purely a vanity section and honestly should not be a section in the museum article. In fact it is destructive to museums as it gives the appearance that size of audience is what is important about a museum not its collection, curation or educational programming. Please respond with your positions for keeping the link, indeed it would be good to have a discussion if that whole section has any worth in being retained. Myotus (talk) 15:29, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Glad to discuss. The reason I like a link to the list of most-visited art museums is largely a practical one; it's the most complete, most up-to date list of museums out there, thanks to the Art Newspaper, and it also comes out much earlier than the List of most-visited museums, which is largely based on the TEA_AECOM list. The list of most visited art museums is published in March each year, while the list of most-visited museums from TEA-AECOM was only published this year in September. Over the last year, the article based on the the Art News list has regularly gotten twice the number of visits as the TEA-AECOM museum list, because the TEA-AECOM list was slow to be updated. I think it's a service to readers to give them the most current figures.

As to top-visited museums, I agree entirely that the number of visitors isn't the most important characteristic feature of a museum, but readers seem to be interested in knowing which ones are the most popular. Almost all Wikipedia articles on large museums include attendance figures, though often the numbers are several years old. In short, I think ncluding the Art News list link as well as the TEA_AECOM numbers will give readers more accurate and current information, which is the advantage of Wikipedia over other news sources.

Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, keep it. Johnbod (talk) 19:42, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

The article and a link to the "Most-visited art museums" article from the "Museum" article is fine, but I question its placement in the "Most-visited museums" section. Addtionally the problem I am seeing is organization and emphasis for the "Most-visited museums" section. While there could be justification for inclusion for the links in the "See also" section what is the justification for creating a "Most-visited art museums" section - all it does is repeat facts already in the article, it provides no new context.

Are Wikipedia articles created or organized to response to popularity? As stated in Wikipedia's purpose "The goal of a Wikipedia article is to create a comprehensive and neutrally written summary of existing mainstream knowledge about a topic." Having a section in the museum on "Most-visited museums" comes dangerously close to marketing. WP:PROMO I moved the "Most-visited museums" section to the bottom of the article because it had no business being at the top but it should ultimately be removed and the links going to "List of most-visited museums" and "List of most-visited museums by region" should also be moved to the "See also" section. Myotus (talk) 04:15, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I have no problem deleting the section on most-visited museums, and replacing it with links to the relevant articles. It adds no new information on the subject. On the other hand, I don't really understand why an article on museums includes zoos, botanical gardens and aquariums. Those topics have their own articles, and links to those would be more useful. I think the article needs a little more structure and focus if it is to rise above C-class. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 15:22, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

SiefkinDR You bring up a good issue. zoos, botanical gardens and aquariums are the red-headed step-children in the museum world. They are in some sense museums as they have collections of animals, plants, and fish. I would add to that list of awkward museums "Children's museums" as they have no children in their collections. :-) Actually they usually have no collections at all.Myotus (talk) 20:11, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I think this (Myotus) is pretty fair nonsense, & possibly WP:COI. If I was in Minnesota I might possibly visit his museum (not on any most-visited list, I imagine) but like most people at all interested in museums I know what are the top ones near me, & if I travel it will normally be very obvious what the local equivalents are. Indeed, in the summer one might feel that "most-visited" is a cue to avoid places in big cities. I agree that "zoos, botanical gardens and aquariums" should not be here. Johnbod (talk) 16:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Johnbod I do list my job/work up front on my page for transparency, it would be helpful if you did as well. How you can think working with museums is a conflict of interest in this case? It could be if I was promoting the Minnesota Historical Society which I am not. However, over-promoting "Most-visited museums" "Most-visited art museums" strikes me as having a elitist, classist and possibly racist bias much like promoting a list of "Most published artists" since there's simply less [published] documentation on many accomplished women and minorities throughout history. There are many high-quality (subjective) museums that do not have access to the resources that "Most-visited museums" do. Many of these fall outside of wealthy industrialized counties.

Additionally Another very big issue is what constitutes a visit? How to measure visitor and what is considered a visit has always been a problem. Museums can and have inflated numbers for their own benefit. It appears that Wikipedia is only feeding this misinformation monster.

Articles:

• Missing, massaged, and just wrong: Problems with visitor numbers Mapping Museums Blog
• Museums Make a Poor Show of Projecting Visitor Counts - Forecasts may secure funding but often turn out to be inaccurate Wall Street Journal
  

Myotus (talk) 19:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I used to when I did work in any area relevant to my editing. Even less impressed with this latest post. No doubt the people who go to these museums have "a elitist, classist and possibly racist bias". Since most of them charge for entry, I can't imagine there's a huge issue with the numbers myself. Johnbod (talk) 03:55, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Art Museum and Design Museum sections combined

Both have relatively similar missions and often can be found referenced together in literature. In many addition museums listed under the art museum section were not art museums but rather were national/encyclopedic museums which contained art collections in addition to natural history, historical, and antiquity collections. Myotus (talk) 15:54, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Removing museum type descriptions

There were 26 museum type descriptions listed on the page.There are 149 categories listing museums by type. It would be ridiculous to describe each one on the museum page. One of the ideas of an encyclopedic article is brevity. Even listing out 26 museum types is too much. Several do not even have their own page and some have longer descriptions on the museum page than on their own page. I have pulled the descriptions of museum types from the article, and instead create a list of the "types" of museums with each linking to its own page. This will allow the users decide on their own if they want to learn more about the type and then click on the link to go to the page. Please discuss here about the Museum type descriptions if you feel one way or the other. The following museum types were added: Agricultural, Architectural, Archaeological, Art, Design, Biographical, Children's, Community, Encyclopedic, Folk, Historic houses, Historic sites, Living history, Local, Maritime, Medical, Memorial, Natural history, Open-air , Science

The following were removed due to no pages or just lists. Marginalized people, Transport museum, Specialized museum, Virtual museum, Military and war, Ethnological and ethnographic, Pop-up, Mobile Myotus (talk) 03:34, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Changes museum types

Replaced war museum with local history museum in lead. No article in Wikipedia for War museum (or military museum) it was only linked back to Museum article. Local history museums are some of the most common museums. Removed duplicate listing of Virtual museum. Myotus (talk) 23:07, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Exhibition, not exhibit

The second sentence uses the term "exhibit" wrongly: "Many public museums make these items available for public viewing through exhibits that may be permanent or temporary." It refers to exhibitions, i.e. spaces where objects (exhibits) are displayed (exhibited). The exhibit is an object or a group of objects displayed as a unity inside an exhibition. An exhibition is a curated collection of objects put on display, with interpretation. The word "exhibitions" should be used instead of "exhibits". Thanks! Flfeneru (talk) 10:25, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

In American English an "exhibit" can describe the whole "exhibition" or show, as it must be called in British English. I think it is not actually wrong in American English to call a show an exhibition, whereas in British English it is downright wrong to call a show an "exhibit". If I'm right, and "exhibition" for a show is ok in both varieties, then we should use that per MOS:COMMONALITY. Johnbod (talk) 17:06, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussing the article's images

Going to just open this section to allow people to discuss this article's images here if they're ever an issue, without having to make even more sections for everyone to scroll through here. There seems to be an extant debate about worldwide representation in this article's images, as well as what seems to be minor issues with whether the exterior of a museum accurately represents what a museum is.

Of course, I'm not just opening this for nothing, so while I'm here, I might as well describe my own recent edit to the lead multi-image by explaining my additions of each image.

• The British Museum is one of the most visited museums in the world and has a large and comprehensive collection that covers multiple types of museum. While yes, the user who added the multi-image in the first place did so because they took issue with the article's images being predominantly Western, the aforementioned reasons are a pretty good argument to keep it at the top, and the Louvre is already the lead of several other museum-related articles. Plus that shot of the entryway is seriously baller and I'm surprised it hasn't been used anywhere else; if it was less blurry, it'd undoubtedly be a featured image.
• The Egyptian Museum covers history museums and has the largest collection of Egyptian antiquities in the world. Its image here is also one of the few really good shots of its exterior that isn't just a plain front shot. I would have kept the previous image of the Grand Egyptian Museum, but then I zoomed in and realized it's a promotional render and that the actual museum is still a construction site that's nowhere near as photogenic.
• The Canada Science and Technology Museum is honestly just here because I needed a science and technology museum for this and remembered I had visited this place this year. It also covers representation for the Americas, seeing around this point I decided I wanted one for each continent but also didn't want 7 images in the lead (for an idea of what I was aiming for, see the continent-representing lead images in Police car). I'll admit it's honestly not a particularly great image compared to the others, so if any better shots of science and technology museums in the Americas can be found for this, by all means, but it honestly still hangs in there.
• The Hong Kong Museum of Art covers Asia and art museums, but also isn't fully history related per se, since it seems to host contemporary art. That's it, really. I would have used other East Asian art museums like the Tokyo National Museum, Guangdong Museum, or M+, but shots of the former two didn't fit well in the multi-image's format, and I couldn't find images of the latter because it turns out searches don't consider "+" to be a character, plus HKMoA's name indicates it's an art museum pretty well compared to the others.
• The House of Slaves was in the multi-image beforehand and I simply didn't bother to change it. All I did was change the image to show more of the building itself, and move its position in the multi-image.

As a side thing, to discuss whether we actually need interior shots in the lead or even as the thumbnail, I'd say no seeing the rest of the article can have those and already has a lot of those (plus, again, that British Museum image looks really good). AdoTang (talk) 05:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Many of the image changes are an improvement and the arguments make sense. Great catch on the Grand Egyptian Museum. You bring up very important issues. 1). There should be more than just history museums represented. 2). Should there also be interior shots? However, I removed the British Museum image for the same issue I removed a photo of the British Museum the first time. The large European National antiquities museums have had over representation on the page for over a decade. Regardless of their popularity it was time to showcase the diversity of museums and museum locations. I replaced it with a very good photo of the Chilean Museum of Pre-Columbian Art which looks good when the museum page is viewed in the Wikipedia mobile app as well.

I have shown my own bias as I work at a history museum and neglected to represent other museum types such as Science and Art museums. Thank you for adding those. I have added one more additional row which addresses your concern for the need for interior shots of museums in the featured spot. I am hoping we can keep the number of photos to seven. I am already concerned that may be too much. I have added a photo showing a family looking at a diorama at the Indian Museum in Kolkata, India and a photo of an art gallery at the Sukiennice Museum, in Kraków, Poland. Myotus (talk) 15:04, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation says "Do not include pronunciations [...] for common English words just because they have pronunciations that might be counterintuitive for those learning the English language (laughter, sword).". The pronunciation of "museum" isn't even particularly counterintuitive. Including a pronunciation for this common English word is ridiculous, hence my exasperated edit summary. See also WP:NOTDICT. Un assiolo (talk) 14:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

First modern museum

I removed Bramante11's claim that Kurfürstlicher Stall und Stallhof was the first modern museum as that title arguably belongs to the Capitoline Museums in Rome, Italy, which began its collection in 1471 when Pope Sixtus IV donated ancient sculptures to the public. I would like to know where the claim that the Kurfürstlicher Stall und Stallhof was the first modern museum was made and whether it is supported by other authoritative sources. That being said there are many instances of wealthy aristocrates amassing collections of paintings and armor etc. that have become museums, the Styrian Armoury comes to mind as an example of one of them. It would be worth while to create a section about this topic of which the Kurfürstlicher Stall und Stallhof/Johanneum could be part of. Myotus (talk) 16:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Dear Myotus, the collection that was shown in the Electoral stable - the electoral armoury - stems from the 14th century. So, if we only talk about collections - as the capitolinian collection - then even in that case Dresden was earlier. I would however say, a museum can only be called a museum, when it is accessible to everyone. Like the stable from 1588 onwards. There are several sources on the Dresden electoral stable, from Esther Münzberg and others, in French and English, but I would cite the scientific book 'Kurfürstlicher Stall und Stallhof' as the most authoritative. ISBN-13 : ‎ 979-8302604828. It contains a huge amount of scientific notes and proof. Sorry, that it is not in English. Hope, you also speak other languages. 2A01:CB00:281:6400:1CD2:2697:1312:4276 (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Do any of these sources explicitly say it was the first modern museum? Numerous English sources say this about the Vatican (the the pope exhibited, not "donated" sculptures to the public). If the armoury actually is widely seen as "the first modern museum" we should not need to go to German sources to reference this. Johnbod (talk) 19:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I have removed section on Dresden Electoral Stable. Source appears to be a book promotional with questionable reliable source on personal claim that it can only be called a museum "when it is accessible to everyone". In its place I have added much more information on the Capitoline Museums and its designation as oldest modern museum which is backed up by multiple reliable sources. Unfortunately the section on the Dresden Electoral Stable was so also full of puffery and national boosterism so it was better just remove it all for now rather than try to reincorporate it. Hopefully better sources can be found. Myotus (talk) 21:33, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Request to rename Wikimedia Commons category Conservation-restoration

There is a request to rename Wikimedia Commons category "Conservation-restoration" to "Conservation-restoration of cultural heritage objects" that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Myotus (talk) 21:44, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Short Description inaccurate

The short description "Institution that preserves objects of significance" limits museums to storage facilities. I propose a couple of short description possibilities that do a better (not perfect) job encompassing museum's functions:

1. Institution that preserves and interprets history, culture, and art for public learning and enjoyment.
   
2. Institution that preserves, interprets, and shares history, culture, and art.

Myotus (talk) 20:40, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

Much too long! See WP:SD40: "83% of short descriptions use 40 characters or fewer (including spaces). Only 2% of short descriptions are longer than 60 characters, and short descriptions longer than 100 characters will be flagged for attention". One could say "Institution that preserves and displays objects of significance" perhaps. Johnbod (talk) 04:48, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

Still problematic. The description continues to perpetuate the misconception that all museums maintain collections and archives, and even worse, that the term "museum" is equated with "archive" or "collections." Other possibilities:

1. Place for preserving, exploring, and learning culture (53 characters)
2. Place dedicated to preserving, interpreting, and sharing culture (65 characters)

Myotus (talk) 18:30, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

I'm not seeing that problem, & I don't like the woolly & I think too narrow language of your suggestions. Scientific museums may be nothing to do with "culture". What do others think? Johnbod (talk) 18:42, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

Because is no legal concise definition on museums it is difficult to even write several paragraphs defining museums(Just look at the Museums Talk page archives on the matter). Even the International Council of Museums (ICOM) had a significant issue regarding its definition of a museum, which led to a controversy and a vote postponement in 2019 over a proposed new definition.

As far as the short description suggestion "Institution that preserves and displays objects of significance"

• A) Institutions - The word "Institution" is too narrow and exclude spaces that function as museums but are not formal institutions (like some community museums or pop-up museums)
• B) Objects - The ICOM definition explicitly includes "tangible and intangible heritage," reflecting both objects and non-physical elements such as traditions, languages, performances, and skills.
• C) Significance - who determines significance, and what criteria are used? Modern definitions recognize the importance of participation and input from diverse communities in determining what is significant, not just expert curators.

As far as length - Wikipedia's core philosophy is summarized in the "Ignore All Rules" (IAR) tenet, which states that if a rule prevents you from improving the encyclopedia, you should ignore it. Since stuffing everything into a 40 character definition is highly problematic we should also look at longer Short Descriptions keeping under the 100 characters threshold.

1. Place conserving and interpreting tangible and intangible cultural heritage (75)

Myotus (talk) 02:58, 9 November 2025 (UTC)

I don't really care. The vast majority of our readership have a good idea of what a museum is. Those who don't probably are either very young, have very poor English, or grew up in a windowless cave. How helpful do you think those groups will find your long and vague formulations, full of Latinate vocabulary? Put any one of them in place if you like, & see how long the busy shortdef squad let it stand. Johnbod (talk) 08:39, 9 November 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. I have updated the description to the following:

"Institution preserving and interpreting tangible and intangible cultural heritage" (81)

I added back in "Institution"; it is imperfect, but I get your concern about a definition being too vague for people. I also changed "conserving" to "preserving." Preserving may be an easier term to grasp. I left in "interpreting tangible and intangible cultural heritage" as these are core.

The Short description does not mention educating or access, but neither did the previous short description. I suspect those are assumed due to the shortness of the description. Myotus (talk) 16:51, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

Per WP:SHORTDESC, the short description is not meant to be a definition and it should be very brief, with the purpose of complementing and clarifying the title, for example, to aid in understanding the article's content among a list of articles or to help differentiate between an article about an album or book called "Museum"; e.g., Museum, a 2016 Japanese thriller film, or Museum a 2012 studio album by Ball Park Music.

I disagree that "institution" is not the correct word to describe what a museum is, since even pop-up museums and community museums can be thought of as small institutions even if they aren't formal institutions (the short description never implied that they need to be a "formal" institution). If it wasn't an institution, it would more likely just be an individual's collection or exhibition, which isn't really a museum.

The ICOM is only one of many institutions to define what a museum is and plenty of folks would disagree with their definition including that museums must be a not-for-profit, permanent institution. Regardless of their definition, the short description is not supposed to be a definition. Since the article itself (and the lead in particular) does not reduce museums to "storage facilities", I don't think the short description is a significant concern on misleading the reader if it can't encompass the enormous scope of what a museum is in the appropriate amount of space. While education might be a primary goal of a particular museum, that doesn't change the fact that they are most likely an institution that preserves objects, or maybe a historical site, in pursuit of that mission. A reader skimming articles is unlikely to feel mislead by a short description of museums that left out the education aspect. I also don't think this is a case where the guidance should be ignored, since an overly-long or verbose short description no longer serves its purpose.

While in a definition context I would support including phrases like "tangible and intangible heritage", I think a short description would serve its purpose best by removing the additional clarifying terms of "tangible and intangible" and leave those for the article to dig into. While I don't think the short description should focus on cultural heritage—since there are many museums where this is not within their scope—I would support adding "and heritage" so it would read: "Institution that preserves objects of significance and heritage".

As a similar example, the short description for the library article is: "Organized collection of books or other information resources", surely this is leaving out many important aspects of libraries (including education) but it is a very concise way to quickly communicate what a library is so the reader knows that this article is indeed about organized collections of books rather than the similarly titled article Library, which discusses a "literary magazine". MossOnALog^Talk 17:44, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. Even though a short description isn’t the same as a full definition, it still needs to be clear and fair. For example, saying Donald Trump was the “President of the United States” is accurate and neutral, but calling him just a “Convicted felon,” while true, is biased and leaves out other important facts. This is also a problem with the short description for the Museum article. The wording is one-sided and leaves out important information. Not all museums maintain collections or archives. That is a misconception.

The issue about using the word “institution” doesn’t really matter in this case, so there’s no need to discuss it more.

Finally, your point about heritage versus cultural heritage is noted. Either term works depending on the context, and the short description doesn’t need to be a full definition. Your change to "heritage and objects of significance" from "objects of significance" is a good change as it has its parallels with "tangible and intangible heritage." While there are issues with the term "Significance" is minor and can possibly be looked at a later date.

I did make one important change to the current short description and one that hits on the biggest problem. I changed "preserve" to "interpret." All museums interpret, but not all museums preserve. Myotus (talk) 04:05, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

I disagree that all museums interpret—many scientific research museums are simply a repository of specimens and data which are interpreted by the researchers who use the museum, but not the museum itself. I really think preserve is the better word over interpret. In cases that you're referring to where there isn't a physical collection, they're still working to preserve heritage through education and other means. As for the objects of "significance", I think that word is important because it signifies the fact that museums are curated collections, not just warehouses or storage units indiscriminately filled with objects.

I'm not going to change anything as to avoid edit warring, but I do not think the current short description represents the current consensus. MossOnALog^Talk 15:34, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate your willing to discuss the update before taking any action.

Closed research collections typically restrict access to scholars, specialists, or those with research interests, and are not called museums. They are considered repositories, as you have stated. If you know the names of the museums that do not put their collections on display, please share them. The following is a sample list of museums that do not maintain a permanent collection that they need to preserve.

• Art Museums
  • Museum of Contemporary Art Denver
  • Contemporary Art Museum St. Louis
  • Carpenter Center for the Visual Arts at Harvard University
• History Museums
  • The Tenement Museum - New York City
  • National Constitution Center - Philadelphia
• Children's Museums
  • Nearly every Children's Museum does not maintain a permanent collection
• And of course...
  • Museum of Ice Cream - various locations

No museum lacks displays entirely; however, some museums have very limited public displays, using "visible storage" or behind-the-scenes access for many items. Most museums have some form of public display, but the sheer volume of a collection can mean many of the items are not on view.

Even cabinet of curiosities displays interpret objects by arranging them in creative ways that show off unusual or rare items, reflecting the collector's curiosity and worldview. The setup itself tells a story about how people classified and valued things in earlier centuries. These displays often leave the meaning open, letting visitors make their own interpretations rather than giving a clear explanation or organized theme. Myotus (talk) 20:39, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

For the first part: having a permanent collection that the institution preserves was never implied, and having a temporary or rotating collection is still stewarding and curating the collections which contributes to their preservation. Regardless of this, the examples you listed can still be described as "institutions that preserve heritage or objects of significance". I never meant to imply that there is not a wide diversity of institutions that function as museums or functions/missions of institutions that are considered museums (in fact, I acknowledged this when defending keeping the description concise). I think curation is a significant part of what museums do but I don't think that we need to try to squeeze that into the short description because that's well discussed in the article and ultimately the description "institution that preserves heritage and objects of significance" was sufficiently serving it's purpose in my opinion.

I don't know enough about the Museum of Ice Cream specifically, but naming a business a "museum" doesn't mean it's actually a museum in a sense that it should be treated as one in an encyclopedia, anyone can call themselves a museum. Looking at their article and the article for "Selfie Museums", they're described as galleries, which are adjacent (being under the GLAM umbrella) but arguably not a good example of a museum—the ICOM definition of a museum that you offered, for example, would not consider them as a museum since they're a for-profit company. If their mission is preserving the heritage of ice cream, then I'd say they are a museum, if their mission is preserving their profits, I'd argue they aren't a good example of what is a museum for encyclopedic purposes.

For the second part: that's not really correct, many research museums do not exhibit their collections to the public as part of their regular or primary operations—even if they do have professional workshops, educational events for students, or making their data open to the public—and they are still called museums because they are institutions that preserve objects of significance first and foremost; being a repository is not mutually exclusive with being a museum. Also, as the body of the article states, many early museums were not open to the public at all. Having a small proportion of a museum's collection in public view doesn't mean that aspect of their operations is significant enough to warrant inclusion in their description.

For example:

The University and Jepson Herbaria are "botanical natural history museums" and they do not have a public exhibit, only workshops and educational events as part of the broader university mission of education. I suppose you could consider this small aspect of their operations as interpretation, but I still would not use any of the 40–60 characters of a short description to include something about interpretation. The short description for this article is simply "Herbarium" and the article for Herbaria has the short description of "Scientific collection of dried plants", and herbaria are widely considered a type of natural history museum. Putting this all together, the short description for the University & Jepson Herbaria could be "Scientific collection of dried plants at UC Berkeley", which would be sufficient without mentioning their efforts of interpreting their collections.

The Stearns Collection of Musical Instruments at the University of Michigan is described as a museum, listed under their "museums", and is primarily known "internationally as a unique research collection"—just because they have a cabinet display in a lobby or a published catalog of the contents of the collection does not mean I would describe it in under 40–60 characters as "an institution that interprets heritage" instead of "an institution that preserves objects of significance".

It feels like the discussion is drifting away from the topic of importance: how can the article for museums be concisely described? Specifically in the context of a discussion about what the short description should be, I don't see the merit in continuing to debate what is or isn't a museum or what their primary goals are since these are well discussed within the article.

So, let's focus on describing the content of this article in a way that attempts to be consistent with WP:SHORTDESC. As the article body states, "Common themes in all the definitions are public good and the care, preservation, and interpretation of collections." Given the "principle of least astonishment" (WP:ASTONISH), I think it's fair to include both preservation and interpretation within the description. I doubt we'll be able to make this work in less than 40 characters (as apparently 83% of articles do), but any more than 100 characters means it will be flagged for attention. Although less than 2% of articles go beyond 60 characters, I think the concept of a museum is demonstrably broad and complex, in addition to serving as a foundation for the many other articles about specific museums or aspects of museums, and it is therefore justified in hitting the upper limit of around 60 characters. I do think the word "institution" is important to include, and I think that a good description will encompass the diversity of kinds of institutions that function as museums.

I think it would be a good idea to try and maintain some consistency with similar kinds of articles (broad concepts of institutions, organizations, and places that have a function in a community), which I am compiling below:

-Library: "Organized collection of books or other information resources" (60 characters)

-Grocery store: "Retail store that primarily sells food and other household supplies" (67 characters) [*note added 14 November 2025: I have since edited this one to be more brief]

-Bank: "Financial institution which accepts deposits" (44 characters)

-University: "Academic and research institution" (33 characters)

-Zoo: "Collection of wild animals" (26 characters)

-Garden: "Planned space for displaying plants and other forms of nature" (61 characters)

-Nonprofit organization: "Organization operated for a collective benefit" (46 characters)

-Court: "Judicial institution with authority to resolve legal disputes" (61 characters)

-Gym: "Building designed and equipped for athletics and fitness" (56 characters)

-Exhibition: "Organized presentation and display of a selection of items or pictures" (70 characters) [*note added 14 November 2025: I have since edited this one to be more brief]

Below are my proposed short descriptions and their character counts (I don't love any of these, but I think they may represent a consensus while adequately serving their purpose). I welcome some more suggestions.

-"Institution preserving and interpreting collections or heritage" (63 characters)

-"Institution that preserves and interprets collections or heritage" (65 characters)

-"Institution dedicated to preservation and interpretation" (59 characters)

I would also like to hear from some other people on the matter, it may be worth posting on a project talk page or requesting a second opinion from experienced editors. MossOnALog^Talk 22:57, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

First, I am with you on the Ice Cream Museum. I was mentioning it for irony. I hope it was taken that way.

I agree with you to keep the focus on the matter at hand - a short description for "Museum". Johnbod's mention of the differences between American and British museums highlights the need for a global approach in crafting a short description and finding common ground to compromise and reach a consensus. All three of your suggestions are fine. I feel your first suggestion is the strongest (Institution preserving and interpreting collections or heritage) and I don't know if I could come up with a better one. I recommend changing out the current Short Description with it, and if someone has thoughts or a better idea it can be taken up in the future. Myotus (talk) 17:05, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, I will change it to "Institution preserving and interpreting collections or heritage" and if that catches somebody else's attention then they can join in the conversation here. Thanks for taking the time to do all this. MossOnALog^Talk 17:21, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

Same. I appreciate the input and dialog on this! Myotus (talk) 23:29, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

I can live with that wording, so I hope we're done here. Thanks both. Johnbod (talk) 01:07, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

BTW: I would argue that the Museum of Ice Cream is not trying to preserve anything other than its marketshare. Myotus (talk) 20:49, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

I would say that a place that does not maintain a permanent collection is not a museum but a gallery (or workshop or whatever), whatever they choose to call themselves. Several of your "sample list of museums that do not maintain a permanent collection" do not use the term in their name. I was pretty surprized by "Nearly every Children's Museum does not maintain a permanent collection" - that's absolutely not true where I come from - see Category:Children's museums in the United Kingdom. Also not true for the first two American ones I look at: Children's Museum & Theatre of Maine and Flint Children's Museum. Johnbod (talk) 22:55, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• شمس الحضارة لا تغيب.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:52, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

it’s been replaced.Myotus (talk) 15:32, 27 November 2025 (UTC)