Talk:Mileikowsky

Requested move 12 June 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist🩸 (talk) 03:42, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

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Mileikowsky (surname) → Mileikowsky – The page Mileikowsky was originally created as a redirect to Benjamin Netanyahu. I changed the page to the current list of people, but the original creator Freedoxm (talk · contribs) moved it here because they wanted Mileikowsky to redirect to Netanyahu’s article. Even though Mileikowsky is his father’s original name, Netanyahu was born under the Hebraized new name and never bore the old one, and therefore treating him as the primary topic for the name is misleading IMO. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 19:08, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose - I doubt it's misleading. Mileikowsky is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Netanyahu's original surname and is well known for being his surname if his father hadn't changed it. Freedoxm (talk · contribs) 19:18, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

  That’s the thing. Benjamin Netanyahu is the primary topic for “Netanyahu”, because he is by far the most famous person named “Netanyahu”. Can you prove he is the main person referred to as “Mileikowsky”? ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 19:22, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

  @IvanScrooge98 See here. Freedoxm (talk · contribs) 19:26, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

  I know the history of his family, I know his father changed his name. The only mention of “Mileikowsky” in that article is precisely Benzion, so if anything it proves my point that the primary topic may not be Benjamin. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 19:30, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

  I note user Freedoxm has a user box on their page stating “This user would like the Arabic Wikipedia to retain this logo until Benjamin Mileikowsky resigns for good.” While I personally find this quite deplorable, I think it’s really important that users do not let their political views shape how they edit Wikipedia and declare potential conflicts of interest. Rafts of Calm (talk) 23:23, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

• support no reason to believe current redirect is the PT—blindlynx 22:49, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support A surname redirecting to someone who never held that name is quite odd.

Rafts of Calm (talk) 23:17, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support Either this, or reverse it Mileikowsky → Mileikowsky (surname), which was my first thought, but I changed my mind. This seems like POV pushing to redirect it to Netanyahus page, which is a fairly recent creation and seems to stem from information bandied about by antisemitic elements of the internet (on the left and right) who are trying to delegitimize him (which the surname page notes). Thats not to say the creator of the page had that as their intention. They very well could be trying to connect Mileikowsky to something certain since people might search Mileikowsky. Metallurgist (talk) 04:54, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

  I wouldn’t call it exactly “antisemitic” to be a detractor of Netanyahu and his base, especially given the current state of affairs. Let’s stay focused on the topic of the discussion and avoid bringing up unrelated issues. Yes, it is POV to primarily link Mileikowsky to someone who never used it as his name; let’s stay there. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 09:58, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

  I agree we should focus on the discussion but the reason why a number of people (myself included) would agree this is antisemitic is because it implicitly denies the legitimacy of Hebraization, emphasising Netanyahu’s family’s history in Eastern Europe and denying his Semitic roots and identity. Rafts of Calm (talk) 10:42, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

  I see it as more antisemitic to adopt a name your family never had and disown its history as well as that of Jews, who for the most part in the past couple of millennia were not native Hebrew speakers. But again, this is going off track and my opinion – the plain fact in this discussion is that Netanyahu has never used the name because his father changed it; whether we agree with that or not is irrelevant. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:54, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:35, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mileikowski is related with Benjamin Netanyahu

Because Mileikowski were the original surname of his father, and was substitued in order to hide its real origin, really, the logical surname of Benjamin Netanyahu is Mileikowski, and is a form of show that inaccurate treatment of real history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Forza4 (talk • contribs) 12:46, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

This article already explains everything the reader needs to know about the history of the name. It is pretty self-explanatory that the only three individuals mentioned on the page are grandfather, father and son despite bearing different names. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

The surname pages have a specific format and we do not add arbitrary tangential information into them. All about Nenaniahu is in his bio page. Not to say "it is often associated" text is original research. --Altenmann >talk 22:47, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

If your “specific format” involves replacing a link to relatives of the Mileikowskys with these four useless links:

• All pages with titles containing Mileikowsky
• All pages with titles containing Mileikowska
• All pages with titles containing Milejkowski
• All pages with titles containing Milejkowska,

then I’d rather not follow that format. Two of those searches are void and the other two give results already listed on this page. So let’s try to less bigoted about the format and focus on the usefulness to the reader, thanks. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 23:11, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

• Once again, please 'do not add text not supported by references cited. --Altenmann >talk 23:44, 30 September 2025 (UTC)
  • PPlease cite the source that says "It is often associated with ..." or equivalent. --Altenmann >talk 23:46, 30 September 2025 (UTC)
  • PPlease cite the source that specifically says "It is sometimes associated with", otherwise it is WP:UNDUE: many people have different birthname and quite ofthen it is mentioned in bios. Reliable sources must specifically single out an ovccurrence, so tthat it willl be singled out in WIkipedia. --Altenmann >talk 00:04, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

    I’m looking for one. Meanwhile, we don’t have to have that exact quote to observe that there are sourced commentators who refer to him by his father’s surname. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 00:06, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

    After some pause I have to agree that the association with Netaniahu family is notable enough for the surname annd worth mentioning in Wikipedia. However the refbombing yo provided is of poor quaality and eaasily conterstablle. However, like I said, the fact is of note and I am sure good sources should exist, so I m willing to wait while you are looking for them. --Altenmann >talk 03:53, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

Not exactly a third opinion, but...

I removed this entry from the third opinion noticeboard because the dispute is between more than two editors. Consider opening a thread at WP:DRN. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 22:07, 4 October 2025 (UTC)

@Altenmann:, where did you get the idea that you could delete other people's comments? You should take a good hard look at WP:TPO. Anyway, there are indeed more than two editors involved here: Forza4, IvanScrooge98 and you. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 01:31, 5 October 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I unwittingly added my discussion under subject title that was discussing a diffferent issuue 3 months ago. Now I split the issue of OR inn a separate section. --Altenmann >talk 04:02, 5 October 2025 (UTC)

Template intitle

• {intitle links are useful, because articles are being added to Wikipedia, bun very often people so not bother do expand surname lists. Every day I update a couple of surname pages with new names from "intitle" --Altenmann >talk 23:44, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

  And I did this again a minuute ago in Takala (surname). --Altenmann >talk 04:09, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

Invalid original research

In the talk above I agreed that association of the surname may be notablle. However this requires reeliable sources. After a good night's sleep I checkked all refernces and unfortunatelly, I removed alll of them as failung to be WP:RS with edit summaries:

• curprev 09:33, October 1, 2025 Altenmann talk contribs 1,736 bytes −298 rm aljazeera: it gives false information "Benjamin Mileikowsky (Netanyahu)" undo
• curprev 09:31, October 1, 2025 Altenmann talk contribs 2,034 bytes −235 rm mehrnews: it gives false information "Netanyahu (Mileikowsky from Poland)" without explanations undo
• curprev 09:29, October 1, 2025 Altenmann talk contribs 2,269 bytes −245 rm muslimmaters: it falsely refers to "Benjamin Netanyahu-Mileikowsky" without any explanation undo
• curprev 09:26, October 1, 2025 Altenmann talk contribs 2,514 bytes −256 rm Abulhawa: the sourse gives false info: "Benjamin Netanyahu, a Polish Jew whose real name is Benjamin Mileikowsky" undo
• curprev 09:24, October 1, 2025 Altenmann talk contribs 2,770 bytes −291 rm open.online per WP:CIRCULAR: the source is clearly using WIkipedia as a sourcce undo

When adding replacement refs, please check that (a) they do not contain false information and (b) they directly say an equivalent of the generalized statement "It is sometimes associated with Israeli prime minister" --Altenmann >talk 16:38, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Of course it’s false information, geez. We discussed this above. The references are good enough to show that there’s people calling him that. Period. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:47, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

• Please do not restore references to false information without discussion. You cited WP:BRD yourself. That said, you write "The references are good enough to show" - this is your original research WP:SYNTH: you interpreted the sources, which do not directly say "It is sometimes associated with ...". I wrote above what you need to cite. --Altenmann >talk 17:10, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

  Nope. We are still discussing your bold edits, which you keep proposing. Stating that some associate the name with Netanyahu is not interpreting the sources, it’s simply observing them. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 17:22, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

  YOu may "observe" whatever you want, but once you write your observations into Wikipedia article, it becomes original research. --Altenmann >talk 17:23, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

  This is not original research, this is stating what the sources say in third person. If several sources make comments of appreciation for a movie, stating “the movie was well received” on the movie article and citing those sources is not original research. Try again. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 18:26, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

  You know what? Stating "the movie was well received" citing a couple of reviews that did not say "the movie was well received" is Wikipedian's undue generalization, i.e., original research. Try again. --Altenmann >talk 18:53, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

  If most available sources praise a movie, it is well received unless you find reputable sources claiming otherwise. And it isn’t original research. Neither is citing a few commentators and observing that those call Netanyahu with a different surname. Pure observation is not research. End of the story. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 19:20, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

  Again, "most available" is Wikipedian's opinion. And WP:BURDEN to disprove it is not on me, but vice versa: you have to find a source that says "most critics" or "most viewers" or "most fans of Chuck Norris" or etc., loved it. --Altenmann >talk 19:45, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

Responding to third opinion request - Could this dispute be briefly summarized? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:23, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

I have added a number of sources (five, then reduced to four for possible WP:CIRCULAR) that use Mileikowsky in place of or next to Benjamin Netanyahu’s legal surname. Altenmann claims that my wording “It is sometimes associated with Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu” falls under WP:OR or WP:SYNTH because none of the sources state that openly and it should count as a personal conclusion I have drawn. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 20:42, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

Is there any need to say the name is "associated with" Benjamin Netanyahu? He is already mentioned in the notable people section. Should be fine, no? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:02, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

He’s not listed, he’s mentioned next to one of the people listed because they’re related. And that’s the point: I’ve been seeing people especially in the past couple years bringing up the surname in reference to Netanyahu, that’s why I felt it made sense to add a clarification before listing people who actually bore the name. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:22, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

I don't understand your point to be honest. How is the name associated with Netanyahu? Isn't only associated because Benzion changed his last name from Miliekowsky to Netanyahu? Other than that the names aren't associated.

I see you reverted my edit, it would probably be advisable to self revert since there is no consensus for your text. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:46, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

Because there’s people who demeaningly use the name to refer to Benjamin, not Benzion. I think the sources are pretty self-explanatory. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 00:37, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

Yes because his father's name was Miliekowsky. This is covered in the notable people section. You're not respecting that there is no consesnsu for your text, with two editors objecting to it and only yourself supporting it. You are being disruptive to insist on its inclusion. Please self revert and seek further dispute resolution if you must. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:42, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

No, because there’s people who use it for the son and not just the father. It needs to be said that it’s not his legal name before listing the relatives who did bear it. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 01:09, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

We do not have to write in Wikipedia that the moon is not made of cheese. --Altenmann >talk 01:27, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

Having checked the references in support of your text, you definitey need to self-revert as none of the sources say anything like the name Miliekowsky is associated with Netanyahu. Mentioning Benjamin Netanyahu and his father and grandfather in the notable people is how this should be covered. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:02, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

I saw this at 3O before @IOHANNVSVERVS took it. My general comment directed to all is that this article has never been about the surname Mileikowsky. From the very first diff it's been about Bibi's Russian ancestry. If it were completely up to me, I would scrub all mention of Netanyahu from the article until the significance of tracing the lineage of the world's most powerful Zionist to somewhere that isn't Zion is laid open more plainly than a mere "association". @IvanScrooge98, as other editors have already implored, you should self-revert until consensus is reached for the content you wish to include in this article. Xan747 (talk) 04:34, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, Polish not Russian ancestry. Xan747 (talk) 04:45, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

It was neither Polish not Russian, but Ashkenazi Jewish (Lithuanian Jewish) ancestry. And the citizenship was Russian Empire. --Altenmann >talk 04:55, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

My apologies again, thank you for the corrections. My ignorance aside, the point stands that his ancestry is mostly eastern European. His mother was born in Mandatory Palestine, but her family has Lithuanian roots, right? I don't know how many generations back. And it is my understanding that his political opponents use this against him; he is not truly sabra because, even though he was born in the region, his roots there aren't very deep.

General comment: If that's what this "connection" is really about, let's support it with good sources and have done with it. Xan747 (talk) 05:36, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

The roots of vast majority of Israelis are "not very deep" and these roots are mentioned in the corresponding bios. However the discussed article is about a surname. All persons related to the surname are listed in the list, and this is the whole "association" that is needed. Persons that are not "associated" with the surname are not listed here. For example, David Ben-Gurion was born Grün, which fact is mentioned in both articles, with no extra musing. And so on. --Altenmann >talk 15:38, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

To be very clear, I was not taking a position on the merits of those arguments, only noting they exist outside Wikipedia and wanting to ensure they don't stealth their way into articles by way of vague "connections". It seems my suspicions here may be unfounded, and it also appears that the other two editors are reaching agreement, so I will withdraw with apologies if my comments were in any way offensive or disruptive. Xan747 (talk) 16:50, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

The description of the disagreement is correct: citing a couple sources that "use Mileikowsky in place of" is WP:REFBOMB of kind Citations that name-drop reliable sources. Yes, it is tangentially associated with Bibi, but there must be a reliable source that explicitly talks about this association, i.e., makes this association worth inclusion. I can readily list thousands of bios whose grandpa was notable but have a different surname and I am 150% sure that none of the corresponding {{surname}} pages draws this kind of association. --Altenmann >talk 23:01, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98, Benjamin Netanyahu should really be wikilinked. You cite WP:DABBLUE but that is about disambiguation pages. Please self revert. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:31, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough. The dots stay out though, per MOS:LISTFORMAT as the page counts as a list. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:40, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

Seems fair to me, thanks IvanScrooge98. - IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:01, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

If I am reading this correctly, Ivan wants the disclaimer in the lede. Altenmann does not. I worked on this page awhile ago, and I do support the inclusion of that, however, I am unable to find any sources addressing the derogatory use of that name against Benjamin. So, while it is quite common, there is no documentation to that effect that I can find. And therefore would be difficult to include. To Ivan, I would recommend finding such a source from a RS, which would support inclusion.

Secondly and oddly, I have tried to remove the see also link to Netanyahu, which I dont think is appropriate, but Ivan and others maybe keep trying to restore it. The last time I attempted to do this, I was able to include it in the prose, making the see also unnecessary. It seems odd to want to mention the improper association and then give merit to that exact association in the see also. It is a little more difficult to do this now as it is a surname list.

And finally, I am trying to track down a copy of that Beider book. It is available in a few libraries, so I will try and inquire therein.Metallurgist (talk) 21:49, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

The association between Netanyahu and Mileikowsky still exists though, because, since the former replaced the latter, there are notable members of the same family with either surname. It’s a matter of content – this page lists certain people, and the Netanyahu page lists other people who are related to them. As for the other points, I don’t have much to add to the above conversation and at this point I have settled with how the page looks right now, given that I also have a hard time finding a third-party source explicitly stating the obvious. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 21:59, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

I am not sure it is obvious. Unless you are on social media, you would not know about the usage. Metallurgist (talk) 22:07, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

It is obvious because the association is proven, despite mostly on firsthand sources. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:14, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

Are you talking about Benzion or Benjamin? I am referring to the mistaken association with Benjamin. He was never associated with that name, and its basically the equivalent of deadnaming. For Benzion, I think it may be reasonable to include in the prose somehow. Maybe replace the Benjamin link with that. Metallurgist (talk) 22:29, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

Again, I’m talking about both, I’m talking about the family. Some members of the same family bear the surname Mileikowsky, others bear Netanyahu in its place. Hence the obvious relation between the two – not by etymology, but by blood. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:33, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

Yea, but you can simply go to the pages in question to find that out. There is no reason for this in the see also. But I am open to including it in the prose, and I do support a mention of the derogatory use, if we could find a source. Metallurgist (talk) 22:40, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

Also, I am still against the use of See also as it perpetuates the false association. You seem to think the opposite if I understand correctly. Would you support integrating it into the prose? Metallurgist (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

But it isn’t a false assiociation, as I said. People with both names belong to the same family, they are related. It’s clearly relevant. I wouldn’t really mind including it in the prose as an alternative. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:12, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

There is only one person who held both names: Benzion. There is a movement of antizionists who use the name to malign Benjamin. Unfortunately, there is no reliable source attesting to this. Metallurgist (talk) 22:30, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

I’ve answered above. Whether one likes it or not, there is a relevant connection among literal relatives with the two surnames when one is the replacement of the other. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:35, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

How about "Benzion Netanyahu (ne Mileikowsky, changed to Netanyahu after 1920), Polish-born Israeli encyclopedist, historian and medievalist, father of Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu."? Its not really clear when it started. I see also Nathan sometimes signed as Netanyahu, but its unclear if that is a mononym or a surname. Metallurgist (talk) 22:38, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, on Leibowitz: Jon Stewart (born Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz in 1962), American political satirist, formerly of The Daily Show Metallurgist (talk) 22:43, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

This one seems fine. Just changed it. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 23:04, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

I still would like to integrate the Netanyahu surname in there somehow. Also worth noting Begich family only uses direct relations in descriptions, which is how I trimmed things down. Metallurgist (talk) 06:09, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

@IOHANNVSVERVS curious what Beider said. Did you find the book somewhere or found it online? Not disputed, just interested. Thanks. Metallurgist (talk) 15:41, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

It just says:

"Milejkovskij (Vilna, common in Oshmyany; Gomel') T: from the village Milejkovo (Oshmyany d., Mstislavl' d.) or Milejki (Slonim d.) (Melejkovskij, Melikovskij, Milakovskij, Milikovskij, Milokovskij, Milukovskij, Milyukovskij)" IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:13, 20 October 2025 (UTC)