Talk:Michael Jordan/Archive 6

Archive 1

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Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Numbers Jordan wore

He also wore number 9 in the Olympics. Because his number was 45, 4+5=9. And 9 was actually his father jefferey jordans basketball number 2601:98B:C281:F210:B4E0:6562:1BCD:5A0D (talk) 13:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 May 2023

Under “==== Early NBA years (1984–1987) ====”, please replace “Against a Boston Celtics team that is often considered one of the greatest in NBA history, Jordan set the still-unbroken record for points in a playoff game with 63 in Game 2, but the Celtics managed to sweep the series.” with “On April 20 at the Boston Garden, in Game 2 of the First Round, a 135–131 double overtime loss to the eventual NBA Champion Boston Celtics, a team that is often considered one of the greatest in NBA history, Jordan scored a playoff career-high 63 points, breaking Elgin Baylor’s single-game playoff scoring record. Boston swept the series in three games.” 2603:8000:8500:38F2:894F:5571:1C13:FA7A (talk) 16:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Partly done: "a team that is often considered one of the greatest in NBA history, " not added, since it's a bit of POV. -Lemonaka‎ 12:14, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2023

Please put "A Celtics team that is often considered one of the greatest in NBA history," before starting the sentence "Boston swept the series in three games. 2603:8000:8500:38F2:C58F:794F:9FB9:A0E8 (talk) 21:16, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

References

 Done Cocobb8 (talk) 22:51, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2023

 Not done: I don't read that paragraph as a summary of the rest of the section so I don't see the need for the 1st sentence to be a summary. The section reads a little bit more chronologically - born in Brooklyn, background on family, then the move to Wilmington and all his pre-pro basketball and school information following Cannolis (talk) 21:21, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Early Life

Please add that he was raised in Wilmington, North Carolina in the first sentence. It is his hometown and where he lived since he was a toddler.

Change:

Michael Jeffrey Jordan was born at Cumberland Hospital in the Fort Greene neighborhood of New York City's Brooklyn borough on February 17, 1963, to bank employee Deloris (née Peoples) and equipment supervisor James R. Jordan Sr.

to

Michael Jeffrey Jordan was born on February 17, 1963, at Cumberland Hospital in the Fort Greene neighborhood of New York City's Brooklyn borough, and was raised in Wilmington, North Carolina. He is the son of bank employee Deloris (née Peoples) and equipment supervisor James R. Jordan Sr.

Source:

References

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2023

Under ===Personal Life=== please remove this line from the 3rd paragraph as it's irrelevant :

His two sons attended Loyola Academy, a private Catholic school in Wilmette, Illinois.

 Done, the given citation was bad anyway. Xan747 (talk) 15:15, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2023

In the section about Michael Jordan's sale of the Charlotte Hornets, the total amount sold for should be included of approximately 3 million dollars. Carch830 (talk) 15:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 12:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

While I just saw this comment, it turns out that I had added the amount here as part of an update, so I think we can call this resolved. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

NBA record highest playoff PPG in a season.

Jordan holds the highest single season PPG in the playoffs (43.7). Shouldn't that part in his statistics be highlighted in purple as all NBA records are? Toebiscuit (talk) Toebiscuit (talk) 07:47, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

There was no consensus for this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 22 § Playoff stats leaders for a given year. Seems like trivia that can be found in a database, versus something that is defining for a player.—Bagumba (talk) 04:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Still FA?

Many years have passed since Michael Jordan became a featured article. Do you think the article still meets the FA standards even after its promotion in 2007? ScarletViolet (talk • contribs) 12:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Refer to WP:FAR if you have concerns. —Bagumba (talk) 14:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

If they do wish to refer to FAR, discussing here would be the first step anyways. ScarletViolet, do you have any specific concerns wrt the FA criteria? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: The article's lead section contains too much citations in the lead (MOS:LEADCITE)... The citations too are not consistently formatted. ScarletViolet (talk • contribs) 00:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Having citations in the lead section is optional but is allowed. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

"The ceiling is the roof" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect The ceiling is the roof has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 24 § The ceiling is the roof until a consensus is reached. Mazewaxie (talk • contribs) 13:53, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2024

This guy averaged 2.8 steals per game (ranks second all time). In the infobox, you should give information about his stats for steals. Rebounds or assists, one of them should be removed.

Please see: Hakeem Olajuwon (points, rebounds, blocks).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.221.84.53 (talk) 30 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Consider discussing this at the WikiProject NBA talk page. FWIW, Clyde Drexler shows rebounds and assists.—Bagumba (talk) 12:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Picture from playing days in infobox

Would it be a good idea to have a picture from his playing career in the infobox up top, rather than the current pic from 2014. That pic of him dunking circa 1987-88 looks like a good fit. Shamus248 (talk) 18:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Gold medals

My question is , how come under all those accomplishments and random ACC first team stuff , you don’t even list that he won a gold medal twice . He won 2 Olympic gold medals and that isn’t as important as some of those random achievements? I would argue the dream team helped push Micheal into being the greatest player which won him those awards later . Just sad to see that Olympic gold medals don’t rank as high as ACC player of the year . I think it’s a sad site . 2601:19C:4A01:E4E5:C00C:4829:2BF1:E7BC (talk) 02:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The medals in international competitions have their own collapsable table later in the infobox, which I believe is the standard for basketball player article (someone at the NBA WikiProject might be able to confirm that. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Michael Jordan also played Point Guard

Jordan officially switched to PG with 24 games remaining in the 1988-1989 season and stayed at the position throughout the playoffs where the Bulls lost in the Eastern Conference Finals. He also switched to PG during the 1991 NBA Finals which he confirmed in the post game press conference after Game 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZvWcbB2lU) and it was reported on by the Tampa Bay Times (https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1991/06/07/jordan-moves-to-point-guard/) back in 1991. The position of Point Guard should be added alongside his SG position where SG would be his primary. Bugkill (talk) 20:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2024

I want to tell how much I appreciated him. Neheheheh (talk) 22:18, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:22, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 December 2024

his actual name i9s jaden i just wanted to edit that MONKJUN (talk) 22:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 22:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

AP Athlete of the Decade

MJ was named AP Athlete of the Decade in the 90s.This should be added in the list of career highlights and awards. similar to Lebron James wiki page. 2003:F5:CF2D:C509:FF74:E8AE:93D8:56EB (talk) 10:50, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

We would need a reliable source to add that into the article. The Associated Press Athlete of the Year article doesn't have any sourcing for Athlete of the Decade winners, and I couldn't find a reference in a quick Google search. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:19, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

Source

The NBA is responsible for ensuring the integrity of former and current players impact and accolades. In Michael Jordan’s biography, the line from NBA.com “By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time”should still be there until NBA.com changes it. There are the experts of their product unless another basketball association overtakes it. Source:https://www.nba.com/news/history-nba-legend-michael-jordan Clifmantic (talk) 03:57, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

And Chamberlain's NBA.com legacy says he's the greatest. At Talk:Wilt Chamberlain the discussion leaned towards removing them both. Subjective water cooler stuff to sell magazines and newsprint. You created a new account just for this? Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:54, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

The exact Chamberlain quote from NBA.com is Asked to name the greatest players ever to play basketball, most fans and aficionados would put Wilt Chamberlain at or near the top of the list. That statement has been used at least since 1999. It doesn't specify how many place him at the top, presumably few now. —Bagumba (talk) 10:12, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) and Bagumba: There's clearly a recency bias every time a new great player comes and old great players go, so it's a good solution to not mention such hypes in the leading paragraph. But now it's thematically undue that Jordan, James and Chemberlain aren't considered 'one of the greatest' in the lead, whereas players like Bryant, O'Neil, Jokić and Antetokounmpo are. If we're consistent in omitting it, one should go and vet all articles.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:32, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

IMO, "one of the greatest" is redundant for former players if they've been inducted into the Hall of Fame. —Bagumba (talk) 19:35, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Being inducted into the Hall of Fame doesn't indicate 'one of the greatest', unless there are reliable independent sources supporting that claim.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:42, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Then just write "He was inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame" (though I think most assume an inductee was considered by voters to be among the top X in the sport) —Bagumba (talk) 12:56, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. Those others should also be vetted and that fluff placed in a legacy-type section. A small historical overview section is exactly where you would place the quotes of greatness. I think the only time I would relent on that would be with NHL's "Wayne Gretzky" where the entire league retired his number as the greatest. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:46, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Notification of discussion relating to this page

Due to recent edits, there's nothing relevant to inline tag in the lead, so this is a notice that there is a discussion at WT:NBA#Discussion on allowing "greatest" in the lead of all NBA players which pertains to this article. Left guide (talk) 08:30, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

Specifically, the edit removing His profile on the NBA website states, "By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time." —Bagumba (talk) 08:36, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

POV lead tag

{{POV lead}} tag added due to pushback at WT:NBA over recent removals. Willing to remove the tag once a consensus is reached on how to treat "greatest" claims in the lead for this article. Left guide (talk) 07:57, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

RfC

There is an RfC at WP:NBA that is relevant to this article. See here. Ladtrack (talk) 19:46, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Air Jordans "remain popular"?

The supporting reference is from 17 years ago. That's a long time... Rosencrantz2 (talk) 20:08, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Replaced the previous citation with a much more modern article. Giants2008 (Talk) 18:16, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Greatest player

There's discussion at Talk:Wilt Chamberlain § RfC: Can Wilt Chamberlain be called the greatest player of all-time? about the suitability of NBA.com's statement in Jordan's lead: By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time.

If something like this were to stay in the lead, we should be looking for mainstream sources that assess that he is "widely considered" the greatest, if he still even is. A fair cutoff might be sources leading up to James becoming the all-time leading scorer (or after). Here's some sources I've found:

• "Now, he’s widely regarded as the greatest basketball player of all-time." USA Today. May 7, 2024.
• "Widely considered the greatest basketball player of all time, Michael Jordan won six NBA titles with the Chicago Bulls and is an icon in both sports and business." Forbes.com. December 20, 2024,
• "Michael Jordan is widely considered to be the greatest basketball player of all time." USA Basketball. November 25, 2015.
• "There aren’t many stars who can boast about besting Michael Jordan, widely regarded as the greatest of all time by most basketball fans." Hoops Hype. November 9, 2024.
• "While Michael Jordan won the “Greatest of All Time” category for the third consecutive time, his once-massive lead over LeBron James has shrunk significantly with every passing poll." The Athletic. April 23, 2024.

—Bagumba (talk) 10:05, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

Don't think USA Basketball is an independent source since it's a sports governing body and being published in 2015 makes it outdated for considering LeBron. Is Hoops Hype reliable? Another caveat about that source is that it attributes the claim to "most basketball fans" rather than making an authoritative statement in its own voice, or at least attributing it to scholarship rather than fans. The second-to-last paragraph of WP:WEIGHT says (emphasis mine)

Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.

Though I suppose if that source is reliable, it might be usable to support something like "most basketball fans consider Jordan the greatest player of all-time". Left guide (talk) 08:19, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Good that someone looked at the sources, let alone their publication dates. —Bagumba (talk) 07:15, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

If someone is considered by most experts, fans and players as the greatest of all time, then it is neutral to say he is widely considered to be the greatest according to Wikipedia's guidelines. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#:~:text=All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia,reliable sources on a topic. Orlando Davis (talk) 00:40, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

I don't think it's a problem that multiple NBA players have Wikipedia's that quote that experts have called them the greatest. All of those articles are neutral if they note what experts from reliable sources have said. In fact, not adequately noting recognition could be a lack of neutrality due to leaving out critical information. Orlando Davis (talk) 01:00, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

For Jordan, he hasn't just been called the greatest by some experts. He is still widely considered to be the greatest because he wins every poll of writers, fans, and players. Orlando Davis (talk) 01:09, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

But not in the lead since it's a very subjective accolade. This is under discussion at the NBA Project. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:59, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, it doesn't say anywhere that you can't put that in the lead. There are no Wikipedia guidelines on where you can't put praise from reliable sources. Please cite a Wikipedia guideline article where it says that you can't put a quote of praise from a highly reliable source in the lead. Orlando Davis (talk) 11:15, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

No but WikiProjects have big say on that and it's under discussion right now on whether to allow the term "greatest" in NBA player leads. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:42, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

73 percent of fans voted for MJ as the greatest. Espn.com May 17, 2020.

Espn ranked Jordan number 1 among 75 greatest. Espn.com July 31, 2022.

Michael Jordan recently won the vote among NBA players. HoopsHype April 29, 2024.

There are countless reliable sources, including current ones. Those are only a few. The acclamation quote should be put back. Orlando Davis (talk) 00:13, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

yes i also believe that he should be considered the greatest most nba fans agree and sources making it practically fact at this point (which in my opinion it is but does not matter) Wcamp9 (talk) 15:58, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Come join the discussion and place your vote in the RFC here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association GOAT Bones231012 (talk) 16:24, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Another source: "Fellow NBA legend Michael Jordan – widely considered to be the greatest basketball player of all time ..." CNN. August 1, 2022.—Bagumba (talk) 09:06, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Jersey number information

@Nikkimaria: I don't think adding where Jordan got 23 from is overdetail. After all, he wore that number through almost his whole career and is indelibly associated with it. He wore 12 for a single regular-season game and here's the following information we have on that: "Jordan wore a nameless No. 12 jersey in a February 14, 1990, game against the Orlando Magic because his No. 23 jersey had been stolen. Jordan scored 49 points, setting a franchise record for players wearing that jersey number." There's also substantial explanation of Jordan wearing and then not wearing 45 in 1995, which lasted a grand total of 22 games. What I wrote is basically the same amount of detail, for the number he is iconic with. Also, I asked in the associated WikiProject, and they said it would be fine. Ladtrack (talk) 02:06, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

I would have no objection to reducing the other details you mention, but either way, the number he wore in high school and the math components don't need to be here. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:13, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

How about "He wore the same number 45 jersey as his brother Larry until until they ended up on the same team. He then halved the number and rounded up to arrive at the number 23. He would continue to use this number through college and, with the exception of a short period in 1995, throughout his professional career." It's shorter and removes the high school part. I do think the math has to stay because that's the crux of this edit. It's about how he got 23 and how he got 23 was math. I appreciate brevity as much as the next guy but that doesn't mean we have to exclude pertinent information. If it makes you feel better about whether it's due, it's over 21.5 games with the number 23 per word of this edit :) Ladtrack (talk) 03:29, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Unfortunately I still disagree that the number he wore in high school and the math components need to be here. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:41, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria I agree, the number he wore in high school and the math components don't need to be added. Assadzadeh (talk) 21:13, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

I think Ladtrack's text needs a bit of massaging for clarity and flow. But I do think the 23 jersey is a major part of the Jordan "image," and an explanation of its origins would be helpful. I think dismissing it as the "number he wore in high school" is missing the point; the context of making the varsity team is what prompted him to decide on the number he would be associated with for decades to come. Major Jordan biographies, like Lazenby's Michael Jordan: The Life, do give space to the jersey origin story. Zagalejo (talk) 12:58, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

If you have that book, would you mind giving the relevant text? I'd be curious to see how Lazenby words it or if there is additional information in the book that wasn't in the USA Today article. Ladtrack (talk) 17:09, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Does this Google Books link work for you? Zagalejo (talk) 18:10, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

It does, thanks. I do like how Lazenby uses it to show Jordan's legacy inspiring future basketball players. I think we can do that, too. So how about inserting something like this into the fifth paragraph of the legacy section to show the relevance? "Numerous subsequently NBA players have worn Jordan's 23 jersey number to pay tribute to him, including James, Metta Sandiford-Artest, and Anthony Davis." Maybe not exactly that wording or exactly those players but I think something like this could help show the relevance of the number to his legacy. Ladtrack (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Something like that might be OK. That legacy section is getting a bit choppy and bloated, so the whole section could benefit from reorganization (but that may be a project for another day.) Zagalejo (talk) 00:20, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Support adding back your edit regarding jersey number. GOAT Bones231012 (talk) 05:29, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Fishing

Why is nothing about his boat and fishing tournaments mentioned? 2604:2D80:7A8C:7300:10AA:5062:EBAE:1F5C (talk) 02:39, 10 August 2025 (UTC)

Hey bro, just finished putting this together, check it out: Fishing Tournaments. GOAT Bones231012 (talk) 17:24, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

MVP and DPOY

In the "Pistons Roadblock" section, it reads: "Jordan again led the league in scoring during the 1987–88 season, averaging 35.0 ppg on 53.5% shooting,[40] and he won his first league MVP Award. He was also named the NBA Defensive Player of the Year...". A seemingly important detail left out was that this was the first time a player won both MVP and DPOY in the same season in NBA history (and has only, as of 2022, been repeated twice). I don't have permissions to edit this page, but could this detail be added? https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/players-named-mvp-and-dpoy-in-same-season — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.44.33.183 (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2025

In the early years section after the part about him being cut for being too short.

Add:

In a conversation with Tony Robbins about what made him a special basketball player, Jordan credits how demanding he became of himself since being cut from the team in High School. https://www.basketballnetwork.net/off-the-court/michael-jordan-on-what-made-him-a-special-basketball-player Systems292 (talk) 06:08, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Day Creature (talk) 16:32, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2026

Change "Charlotte's original NBA team, the Charlotte Hornets" to "Charlotte's original NBA team, the Charlotte Hornets (now New Orleans Pelicans)" to clarify that the old Charlotte Hornets are not the same as the new Charlotte Hornets which are referenced earlier in the paragraph ~2026-25565-6 (talk) 06:15, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

 Done Day Creature (talk) 15:50, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 February 2026

Change “Widely considered to be one of the greatest players of all time.” To “By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time”. This is the correct quote from the Michael Jordan Legends page at https://www.nba.com/news/history-nba-legend-michael-jordan which you have linked to the wrong quote. ~2026-95995-0 (talk) 13:51, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

 Done Theeverywhereperson talk here 14:50, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. Wiki has it wrong please check profile from NBA Legends ~2026-12239-21 (talk) 08:53, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

He is only one of the greatest. If he was the greatest, he'd not be in the debate w Lebron we can't rly add it Wcamp9 (talk) 21:46, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

The debate of goat is certainly more than two players. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:20, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

The "By acclamation" bit was a quote from the NBA.com source and really shouldn't have been added back to the article without the quotes. That's too close to the source for my comfort, and it's too strong a statement to make in Wikipedia's voice without having it as a quote (which does predate the vast majority of LeBron's career). For those reasons, I changed it back to the prior version. I don't have strong feelings about changing the sentence if sources support changing it, but I think this required a bit more deliberation than what happened here. In fairness, this bit is quite difficult to get right from a NPOV perspective, which is why such edits shouldn't be rushed. Giants2008 (Talk) 17:18, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

There was a related discussion at Talk:Michael Jordan/Archive 6 § Greatest player —Bagumba (talk) 17:54, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

There is a related discussion at Talk:Michael Jordan/Archive 6 § Greatest player —Bagumba (talk) 08:33, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on the 27th March 2026

Tom Haberstroh's article, which is referenced on Jordan's page, has been debunked by multiple sources using actual game footage. YouTuber Jonny Arnett published an interesting rebuttal (link included below).

In June of 2024, Tom Haberstroh questioned the validity of Jordan's DPOY award, claiming his steals were inflated in 6 home games during his 1988 DPOY season. Haberstroh claimed that his review of the film from these 6 home games supports his claim, but failed to provide the actual game footage he was citing.

Arnett went one step further. He completed a full analysis of 10 homes games from Jordan's DPOY season (including the 6 games Haberstroh was referencing), however, unlike Haberstroh, Arnett provided the viewer with a link to the website where all 10 games are available to download.

The game footage indicates that stocks were interpreted differently in that Era of the NBA. Arnett analysed Jordan's stocks in those 10 games using today's NBA rules and discovered that MJ's steals were over-credited by 14, however, his block count was UNDER-credited by 15...this was a crucial finding and something Tom Haberstroh conveniently omitted in his article.

The Bulls Stat-keeper clearly interpreted those un-credited blocks as steals. Applying logic, if that Stat-keeper was intentionally inflating Jordan's defensive stats (as Haberstroh claims), why would he inflate his steals and then DEFLATE his blocks?

Shockingly, however, despite discovering a surplus/deficit correlation between Jordan's steals and blocks, Arnett ignores his own data and states that some of Jordan's steals were inflated.

Ultimately, Jonny tracked Jordan's stocks at 81 and confirms the official box score was 80.

EditsByT2026 (talk) 14:22, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

@EditsByT2026 Welcome to Wikipedia! In short, you need better debunkers, and even if you find those, it's not sure Tom Haberstroh would be removed instead of added to.

From the WP-pov, Jonny Arnett is a WP:BLPSPS in this context, and that's pretty much it. He publishes whatever he wants without any editorial oversight (I'm not counting YouTube here). In contrast, Tom Haberstroh is, presumably, somewhat checked by his news-org, which WP considers generally ok per WP:YAHOONEWS (assuming they're pretty much the same). It's quite possible Arnett is right, I have no idea, but it's not up to us as Wikipedians to judge that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:09, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

I take your point that Arnett, as a YouTuber, publishes content without editorial oversight, however, in this instance, that is irrelevant because video evidence does not require editorial oversight. Arnett debunked Haberstroh's article using actual game footage that is readily available online. His rebuttal is not based on personal opinion, he provided actual video evidence. Surely Wikipedians cannot ignore video evidence which refutes a written article? EditsByT2026 (talk) 15:35, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

I think we can, yes. We're pretty much supposed to. Looking at one or several videos and concluding "Haberstroh is wrong!" is considered WP:OR and we kick that out. We'll see if other editors have an opinion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:07, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Ok, so the "No Original Research" policy prohibits publishing unpublished facts, theories, or arguments, so the actual game footage that Jonny Arnett published, which refuteas Tom Haberstroh's article, is essentially irrelevant because Arnett doesn't have editorial oversight.

Forgive me, I'm new to Wikipedia, but doesn't WP:OR also mandate that all content be based on reliable, published secondary sources, ensuring articles summarize established knowledge?The claims contained within Tom Haberstroh's article are based on 6 games from Jordan's 1988 season...how can that article be categorised as 'reliable' or 'established knowledge' if the actual footage of those 6 games proves those claims to be false? ~2026-19077-60 (talk) 16:45, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that you deduced from watching actual footage that Tom Haberstroh is wrong. Reliable doesn't mean always right, pretty much all sources gets things wrong at times, WP still counts them as generally reliable, otherwise we'd have no sources. But in WP-verse, until you can produce a decent secondary source that disagrees with Tom Haberstroh/Yahoo, he will probably stay where he is. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:12, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for your time. ~2026-19109-98 (talk) 17:23, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Arnett analysed Jordan's stocks in those 10 games using today's NBA rules and discovered that MJ's steals were over-credited by 14, however, his block count was UNDER-credited by 15. Aside from the fact that Arnett is not a reliable source for Wikipedia's purposes, this severely misrepresents Arnett's conclusion – he concludes in the video that while Haberstroh's article cherry-picked the most egregious examples, H. is nonetheless correct that the official stats overstate Jordan's steals and understate those of other players. (He also does not say that Jordan's block-count was undercredited; he says that he would not have credited Jordan with as many blocks as he got in the season but there are enough questionable calls, and the footage is sufficiently unclear, that the official total is probably correct.) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 23:34, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Watch the video again. Arnett absolutely tracks 15 uncredited 'possible blocks' over the course of those 10 games...just because the footage is blurry does not mean those blocks did not happen. Arnett admits that he doesn't have as clear a view as the Stat-keeper sitting right there on the sidelines.

However, Arnett then ignores the obvious surplus/deficit correlation between the steals and blocks that he himself discovered, and states that the steals were over-credited, something which many of his viewers pointed out down in the comment section of the video.

Ultimately, Jonny tracked Jordan's stocks at 81 over the course of those 10 games. The official box score was 80. EditsByT2026 (talk) 01:21, 28 March 2026 (UTC)

Okay, there are two issues here. The first is whether Wikipedia should say, on the basis of Arnett's video, that Haberstroh has been refuted, or remove Haberstroh's analysis. The answer to that is clearly no. You have provided no evidence that Arnett counts as a reliable source by Wikipedia's standards. Even if Arnett's video were reliable, Arnett himself never says that Haberstroh is wrong – in his conclusion (from around 33:30 in the video) he literally says there was a lot of truth in Tom's article ... MJ's steals were definitely inflated to an insane degree. The conclusions that you are drawing (that the overall steal/block total is correct and that this is because the Bulls' statkeeper was crediting things Arnett considers blocks as steals) is your own original research. If you want Wikipedia to say that, you need to get that published in a reliable source.

The second issue is whether your argument holds water at all. This is irrelevant from the point of view of Wikipedia's content, but briefly: Haberstroh finds that other players' steals are being correctly credited. Arnett finds that other Bulls players' steals were sometimes undercredited. If the discrepancy between Jordan's officially credited steals and Arnett/Haberstroh's counting could be explained by a difference in what was counted as a steal in 1988, we would expect it to affect all the players. The idea that a difference in recording systems would cause Jordan to be credited with twice as many steals as Haberstroh and Arnett think he should have been given, and yet not affect any other player, is frankly unbelievable. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 11:30, 28 March 2026 (UTC)

There are 2 important timestamps in Arnett's video...

STEALS (Timestamp - 30:05)

• Official Box Score: 47
• Definitive + Possible: 33

Surplus of 14

BLOCKS (Timestamp - 32:40)

• Official Box Score: 33
• Definitive + Possible: 48

Deficit of 15

There's an obvious surplus/deficit correlation there between Jordan's steals and blocks. One cannot simply ignore those 15 'possible blocks' that Arnett tracked or ANY of the 'possible' steals. Yes, the footage was blurry, but that does not mean those 15 blocks (or the possible steals) did not take place, which is why Arnett admits in the video that the stat-keeper had a much better view from the sideline. That alone (at the very least) challenges Haberstroh's theory that Jordan was 'gifted' defensive stats, because if that Bulls Stat-keeper was purposely 'gifting' MJ defensive stats, why would he inflate his steals and then DEFLATE his blocks?

However, I do take your point that this particular rebuttal video is not sufficient in terms of amending a Wikipedia entry as it's conflicting. Yes, Arnett's video CLEARLY reveals an obvious surplus/deficit correlation between Jordan's steals/blocks, however, he then dismisses that finding and concludes the steals were inflated by 14, ultimately ignoring the 15 'possible blocks' that he himself tracked. If you read down through Arnett's comment section under that video, you'll find a significant number of his viewers made the very same observations as I did.

However, you are correct, in this instance, a new source is warranted. Thank you very much for your time and guidance. EditsByT2026 (talk) 17:01, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

Career highlights table should be corrected

MJ is known for basketball either as a player or an owner. His Daytona 500 win and Presidential medal of freedom have no place in the chart. Kobe’s Emmy, even though it involved basketball, isn’t listed in his chart. The Career Highlight only things listed related to basketball accomplishments as a player, coach, or executive across all other people. ~2026-20927-61 (talk) 02:41, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

Grammatical mistake in first paragraph

In the first paragraph, it says “He is wealthiest athlete of all time”. This should be changed to “He is the wealthiest athlete of all time” ~2026-24561-49 (talk) 14:15, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for noticing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:21, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Widely considered to be one of the greatest players of all time (lead)

Why just "one of the greatest" and not "the greatest"? לידך בלעדייך (talk) 07:51, 11 January 2026 (UTC)

A lot of people don't think he is. ~2026-25565-6 (talk) 06:10, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Every single large scale poll that has ever been conducted on the topic of NBA GOAT has Jordan cemented at number 1. Polls which include the views of NBA Coaches, NBA Executives/General Managers, NBA Players (Current & Retired), Sports Analysts and fans from around the world. The NBA itself (including the current Commissioner) acknowledges that Jordan occupies a tier of his own. ~2026-18876-42 (talk) 15:22, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

No one’s saying there isn’t, but he is “widely” considered the goat by the majority of basketball fans. ~2026-28158-87 (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

Lots of polls have him at the very top and that matters more than what any average Joe says on social media. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 14:48, 9 May 2026 (UTC) BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 14:48, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

Many sources stating that he is widely considered the greatest were listed at Talk:Michael Jordan/Archive 6 § Greatest player —Bagumba (talk) 17:00, 9 May 2026 (UTC)