Talk:Marines

By country

Which countries to include?

Currently the By country section includes countries that don't have marines but have army units with the amphibious warfare role. They are not actually marines so why keep them in this article? They could be moved to the List of marines and naval infantry forces article which could be renamed as List of amphibious forces. Dreddmoto (talk) 15:59, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Those in the amphibious role are mostly there because of how they're treated (analogue). I think the article is fine, but I'm open to suggestions to make it better even though I just drop references for stuff I'm able to stumble on.. Ominae (talk) 16:46, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Ominae. One improvement that would result from moving those countries to the other article would be to reduce the length of the By country section. Doing that would reduce the large number of photographs there, some of which don't appear alongside the country section they portray. One example is the photograph of Japanese soldiers that actually appears alongside the Korea, South section.

What do you think? --Dreddmoto (talk) 21:39, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Photographs

Which photographs to include?

Currently, the introduction and history section include modern photographs of Spanish and Finnish marines which also appear with the country sections they portray. That is duplication. The introduction and history section could be improved if those photographs were replaced with others from wikimedia commons, like this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USS_Wasp_Vs_HMS_Reindeer_Engaged_In_Combat.jpg or this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:160414-N-QF605-124_(26412609076).jpg Dreddmoto (talk) 22:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Agree to replace duplicate image on lead/introduction section. Personally, I like the first image as it describe on of the role of Marines to board enemy vessel during combat. Ckfasdf (talk) 22:29, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Ckfasdf, thanks. I'll add that. --Dreddmoto (talk) 16:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Use of “Littoral zone”

The opening/introduction sentence -- "Marines (or naval infantry) are military personnel who primarily operate in littoral zones, both on land and at sea" -- has bothered me for quite some time. I attempted to edit it but it was reverted and I was accused of utilizing "too complex" language or something similar. (EDIT: I was accused of "resort[ing] to excessive wordiness and circumlocution to appease." Alrighty, then. "Amphibious operations" is "excessive wordiness and circumlocution" but "littoral zone" is not?)

Well, not only would I level the same criticism at the use of "…primarily operate in littoral zones…" but I would additionally argue:

-Clarity/Simplicity: The first sentence of a Wikipedia article should provide a clear and straightforward definition of the subject. The term “littoral,” which refers to a 'specific' coastal zone, might not be immediately understood by all readers.

-Relevance: While “littoral” operations are a part of marine/NI activities, they do not encompass the full scope of what marines do. Marines are involved in a wide range of operations, including amphibious assaults, expeditionary warfare, navy-centric security, and various 'other' land-based missions. Focusing on “littoral” operations in the initial definition might give a skewed impression of their role. Including “littoral” in the first sentence might inadvertently prioritize one aspect of marine operations over others, potentially leading to misrepresentation.

-Verifiability: The basic definition of "marine" rarely includes mention of littoral operations, much less "littoral zones."

Secondary Sources

Britannica: "member of a military force especially recruited, trained, and organized for service at sea and in land operations incident to naval campaigns."

Merriam-Webster: "one of a class of armed services personnel serving on shipboard or in close association with a naval force"

Collins: "A marine is a member of an armed force, for example the U.S. Marine Corps or the Royal Marines, who is specially trained for military duties at sea as well as on land."

Primary Sources

USMC: "The USMC is… the maritime land force service branch of the United States Armed Forces responsible for conducting expeditionary and amphibious operations through combined arms, implementing its own infantry, artillery, aerial, and special operations forces."

RM: "Royal Marines are the Royal Navy's experts in amphibious warfare, providing landing craft, amphibious assault and training."

According to Britannica, littoral zones are:

"…marine ecological realm[s] that experience[s] the effects of tidal and longshore currents and breaking waves to a depth of 5 to 10 metres (16 to 33 feet) below the low-tide level, depending on the intensity of storm waves."

The article, as-written, describes marines in the first sentence of the intro as "…military personnel who primarily operate in littoral zones, both on land and at sea." They do? Do they… hang-out there?

Indeed, the USMC only recently stood-up units that explicitly specialize in littoral operations. For clarity, this post signals my intention to edit this opening sentence, unless someone has pertinent objections.MWFwiki (talk) 20:51, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

7 days (one week), no comments, no objections. Edit completed at 01:32 UTC, 7 December 2024 Edit completed as-follows:

Marines (or naval infantry) are military personnel generally trained to operate on both land and sea, with a particular focus on amphibious warfare. Historically, the main tasks undertaken by marines have included raiding ashore (often in support of naval objectives) and the boarding of vessels during ship-to-ship combat or capture of prize ships. Marines also assisted in maintaining security, discipline, and order aboard ships (reflecting the historically pressed-nature of the rest of the ship's company and the risk of mutiny). While maintaining many of their historical roles, in modern times, marines also engage in duties including rapid-response operations, humanitarian aid, disaster relief, special operations roles, and counter-terrorism operations. In most nations, marines are an integral part of that state's navy, such as the United Kingdom's Royal Marines; in some countries their marine forces can also instead be part of the land army, such as the French Troupes de Marine; or an independent branch such as the United States Marine Corps or the Ukrainian Marine Corps.

MWFwiki (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

mme abbreviation

The Military Balancen uses mme abbreviation for all marines not only Royal Marines so pls insert it again.--Sanandros (talk) 04:00, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

@Sanandros: "mne" is an abbreviation for "Marine," the lowest rank in the Royal Marines, not for the corps itself, so it should not be included in the lead section. Ckfasdf (talk) 11:57, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

They use it for any naval infantry unit. Like "1mne bn" in UAE and "1 mne cdo regt" in Lebanon. So it's not only used as a rank but also short for these type of units.--Sanandros (talk) 16:42, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

If this is so, then it should be fully cited in the Marines article, and then the redirect from the DAB page can be redirected to this article (or section thereof). Laterthanyouthink (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

OK thx, what u mean with fully cited, I used the Military Balance as ref with DOI. The sentence would be written like: The abbreviation for marines is mne.--Sanandros (talk) 20:47, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

Per WP:RS, "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views … are covered." In this case, the use of "mne" as an abbreviation for naval infantry unit appears only used by The Military Balance. And most available references consistently show "mne" as an abbreviation for the rank "Marine" in the Royal Marines, not for the corps or units.

Since this usage does not appear to be widely used across other RS, I dont think it met the threshold for a "majority view". If it is to be treated as a "significant minority view", please provide at least 2 other sources that explicitly use "mne" as an abbreviation for marine or naval infantry units. Without that, it should not be presented in the lead. Ckfasdf (talk) 01:35, 28 April 2026 (UTC)