Talk:Marie Engle

Notes

It looks like someone went to great effort to scrub Engle from the history books, and there’s at least four possible reasons for this that I’ve seen in the literature. Hopefully I have temporarily rectified this situation, but I’m still trying to track some loose threads here and there. Viriditas (talk) 05:48, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

Still no idea what she did for the next 52 years in England, but I have a hunch. Viriditas (talk) 08:30, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

Looks like she did testimonial ads for piano companies from 1910 to 1920 or so. There's an appearance of a singer named Marie Engle at a concert for educators in San Francisco in 1920, but it isn't clear if it is her, as the name was common at that time. When the death of her brother was reported in 1912, she was referred to as a former opera singer, so she had apparently retired around 1910 or so, possibly several years earlier. Twelve years later, after no press whatsoever, a writer for The New York Herald brings her up out of the blue in a discussion about actors in 1922. Looking into this further, it turns out her ex-husband died in 1921, which is likely why the Herald returned to the subject. In the NYT obituary for Amberg in 1921, they barely mention Engle, and when they do, they say they were only divorced "a few years ago". She divorced him in 1896. Never change, NYT, never change. Viriditas (talk) 11:19, 7 January 2026 (UTC)

I'm not happy with the dates. Will do one more pass and see if I can clear this up. There doesn't appear to be any agreement about birth and death dates, all of which vary from one to several years. Viriditas (talk) 02:02, 7 January 2026 (UTC)

The range is correct: 1860 to 1953. The variations are 1861 to ? and 1952 to 1953. Viriditas (talk) 02:13, 7 January 2026 (UTC)

Her probate record that you located states 11 February 1953 @Viriditas. It reads "Marie Agnes otherwise Marie of 83 Waverly-road Southsea Hampshire widow died 11 February 1953 at 3 Brading-avenue Southsea Probate London 17 April to Lloyds Bank Limited. Effects £9644 18s. 7d."

For what it's worth, the family lived in Chicago, Illinois at the time of the 1870 census and Marie's birthplace was listed as Illinois. Katzrockso (talk) 03:40, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. There's a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions, which is why I originally left the dates and birth place out. She originally used her dead mother's first name as her middle name in her honor, then at her death it is recorded not as Augusta but as Agnes? Makes no sense. Can you point me to the birthplace as Illinois? Her father apparently made his wealth in St. Louis as a brewer, so they did live there at some point. The encyclopedia lists her birthplace as St. Louis. Not sure how to handle this. Any recommendations or edits are appreciated. Viriditas (talk) 03:43, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

@Viriditas It's a primary source (the census document), so we have to be a bit more careful. You can access it on FamilySearch here [needs a free account] or on Ancestry through TWL, I believe. Her 1889 marriage record also notes her birthplace as Chicago, Illinois . Apparently she had a brother Charles Engle who was born in Michigan

As for the death, I wouldn't be 100% sure that's really her. Katzrockso (talk) 04:20, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Some more newspaper mentions:

1885

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-saint-paul-globe/188736031/

1887

https://www.newspapers.com/article/st-louis-post-dispatch/188734947/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/new-york-herald/188736268/

1889

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-era/188736413/ - marriage

1892

https://www.newspapers.com/article/new-york-herald/188736376/ - divorce

1895

https://www.newspapers.com/article/new-york-herald/188736216/

1897

https://www.newspapers.com/article/chicago-tribune/188734916/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-washington-post/188735182/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-commercial-appeal/188735252/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-new-york-times/188735411/

1898

https://www.newspapers.com/article/kansas-city-journal/188734966/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/nashville-banner/188735438/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-new-york-times/188735610/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-new-york-times/188735645/

1900

https://www.newspapers.com/article/new-york-tribune/188735331/

1901

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-buffalo-times/188735277/

1902

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-ann-arbor-record/188735126/

They give a better timeline of her location in the late 1890s - singing in Spain and Russia and then in 1900 she planned on going to Germany.

This article has a portrait that is no longer copyrighted and could be used as well.

Interestingly, there is a rumor here that she was a "Mrs. Kellog" on passenger lists. Katzrockso (talk) 04:52, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

has another mention of her

She debuted in Steinway Hall in Dec 1884 and at the Academy of Music (New York City) in January 1885 .

Lahee reports her as a "native of Chicago", so I think we can probably report that as her birthplace, given that the primary sources accord with this. Katzrockso (talk) 05:14, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

This 1886 article is a more detailed biography as well - and also notes that she was "born and raised in this city" [i.e. Chicago, since The Inter Ocean was a Chicago publication]. Katzrockso (talk) 05:18, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Thank you. I would appreciate some guidance. Do I add a footnote noting the differences in dates and places? Viriditas (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

@Viriditas

Not that I have the most experience with this issue, but my advice would be to state she was born in Chicago, Illinois in the text of the article, and add a footnote explaining/citing the sources. Like

Marie Engle was born around 1860 in Chicago, Illinois.

The footnote could be something like:

Contemporary news articles and biographies of Engle report she was a "native of Chicago" <Lahee ref> or "born and raised" in Chicago <1886 article>. In the 1870 census, she was recorded as born in Illinois <ref 1870='' census=''> and her 1889 marriage record similarly reports a birth in Chicago, Illinois <ref 1889='' marriage='' record=''>. However, some later biographies report she was born in Missouri.

Very good advice from WP:When sources are wrong, approach #3. I'm not sure which sources reported the birth in Missouri, I didn't see that when I was reading any of the articles, but how we word it might depend on which sources state that.

If you zoom in here , you will see this source also reports she was born in Chicago. I am not sure where it is from, but it's from some book that someone was selling on EBay here . Katzrockso (talk) 23:11, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

It appears it is from Strand Magazine , which ran a series titled "Portraits of Celebrities at Different Ages". I was able to find it on archive.org here , where there are also some more copyright-free portraits. Katzrockso (talk) 23:15, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Thanks. Images are not a problem. There's dozens of images of her, all very high quality. Viriditas (talk) 23:28, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

I think it might be worth adding another from a different period of her life (e.g. childhood) since she started her career as a singer so young. Still couldn't find out too much about her life from 1902-1953, there is still this big 50 year gap as you say. Katzrockso (talk) 23:33, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Which reminds me, who was Kellogg? In another gossip column article, a writer speculated that the then unnamed man (presumably Kellogg) was a wealthy politician who had been taking care of Engle. Any ideas? Viriditas (talk) 23:39, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

A few more sources from archive.org

The Musical World, 1887

The Sketch, 1893 - contains 2 portraits and an interview with Engle

Opera News, 1953 [I can send you the page if you can't access it]

The American singer, 1937 [I can send you the page if you can't access it]. Katzrockso (talk) 23:30, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Thanks, I can access it. Viriditas (talk) 00:58, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Do you have any ideas as to what to do about the death date and source? Viriditas (talk) 00:58, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

@Viriditas What sources other than that alleged probate record gave a death date or year? If any gave the 1952 and 1953, I would go with those. When we can't identify which primary source records are sure to be an individual's, we should error on the side of caution and exclude them. Katzrockso (talk) 04:12, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

As far I can tell there are three sources. One is a relative of Engle's who wrote into a magazine to say that she had died in the early 1950s, which seemed to be confirmed by the editor in a reply about her life. That's not usable but is a pointer to the decade. Then there is the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 for Marie Engle on Ancestry (points to volume 6b, p. 635) which lists only one death by that exact name in Portsmouth between January and March 1953 at the age of 92, which matches the other record we have that you say we should exclude. Viriditas (talk) 04:55, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

The Marie Agnes Engle that died in February 1953 appears to be the listed as the stepsister of an Edward Stephen Rivett.

I'll use Ancestry links since you seem to have access there.

In the 1939 register , there is a Marie Engle, widowed, residing in Portsmouth, Hampshire, born 4 June, age 76, residing with an Edward S Revett at 23 Western Parade. In 1921, they lived together at Ryde, Hampshire , where she was age 50 and listed as "Marie Agnes Engle". And in 1911, "Marie A Engle" resides in Ryde, Hampshire is listed as age 39 .

Worth noting that in 1911, this Marie is listed as born in the USA, whereas in 1921 she is reported as having been born in London.

While all very interesting, this is all WP:Original research and we can't really use it in the articlespace. However, it is relatively convincing because I didn't find anyone else with the name Marie Engle living in Hampshire in really any time period. Katzrockso (talk) 05:26, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

I will point you to the contents of the letter to Hobbies magazine in July 1955 on p. 26 that Engle's cousin wrote and the magazine published in an issue about Engle: "I was named for Marie Engle who was a cousin. She sang in the eighties and nineties. She died three years ago in Southsea, England (Portsmouth), at the age of ninety-two and in her will I was left five scrapbooks of clippings, photographs, etc. about her, as well as autographed photos of Nordica, Plancon, Salye, Hollman, Farkoa, Albers, Edouard de Reszke, Ancona and others. They are very interesting....Marie Herrick (Mrs. L. J.)" Viriditas (talk) 05:45, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Actually, I found the note you mentioned from the 1950s; "She died three years ago in South-sea, England (Portsmouth), at the age of ninety-two, and in her will I was left five scrapbooks of clippings" from July 1955. That mean she is assuredly the person from that probate record - the location (Southsea) matches, as well as the time frame (3 years before July 1955). Katzrockso (talk) 05:45, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Are you able to trace Marie Herrick (Mrs. L. J.)? Viriditas (talk) 05:47, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Also, that 1955 source repeats the 1946 encyclopedia entry, saying she was born in St. Louis. Viriditas (talk) 05:48, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

In genealogical/historical research, the farther from the birth event that the information, the less reliable of an attestation it is. Sources closer to her birth are more reliable for her date of birth, as well as location of birth.

As for Marie Herrick, that name is far too common to identify her without more information (where she lived, her age, etc) Katzrockso (talk) 08:25, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for at least considering my request. Viriditas (talk) 11:09, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Found her! L. J. (Marie) Herrick, East Lansing, Michigan. Viriditas (talk) 11:45, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain this is her . Matching details: husband is Lee J, middle name is Engle, lived in Lansing, Michigan.

But I'll have to figure out how she is related to Marie Engle. Katzrockso (talk) 00:08, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

I took a look into her genealogy and found no connection between this woman and Marie Engel, so I'm not sure how they are cousins. Katzrockso (talk) 02:08, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the big mystery. Did you run into that unusual story about how a major entertainment magazine tried to blackball Engle? Apparently, they wanted Engle to pay them for opera reviews and she refused. Viriditas (talk) 03:35, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

I did not see that, but that is interesting to know. Katzrockso (talk) 23:04, 15 January 2026 (UTC)

Yes, and they retaliated by refusing to mention her in subsequent articles, even when she was featured in the production. Viriditas (talk) 23:54, 15 January 2026 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. You can locate your hook here. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 02:51, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Marie Engle, 1895

• ... that Marie Engle (pictured) was among the earliest operatic singers recorded on phonograph cylinders, most of which were destroyed in World War II?
• ALT0a: ... that Marie Engle (pictured) was among the earliest operatic singers recorded on rare Bettini cylinders?
  • Source: Gelatt, Roland (1977). The Fabulous Phonograph, 1877–1977. 2d Ed. Macmillan. pp. 78-80. ISBN 9780025429604. OCLC 2644666.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Dawn McMillan
  • Comment: Three hours over the deadline for submission. Asking for an exemption.

Created by Viriditas (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 50 past nominations.

Viriditas (talk) 00:33, 8 January 2026 (UTC).

• New enough (I'm not going to knock it for being a few hours over the limit). Long enough and well-cited. Hook is cited at the end of the sentence the claim appears. I changed "Bettini wax cylinders" to "phonograph cylinders" both because I've never seen them referred to as the former and to link to an article further explaining what they are. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 07:48, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
  • @Krisgabwoosh: Thanks for the review! Typically, I wouldn’t have a problem with such a minor change, but in this case it matters. She was one of the earliest singers recorded on Bettini cylinders which were produced about eight or so years after the first mass produced cylinders of singers. So the current change wouldn’t be all that accurate. Bettini cylinders are well known for their quality and limited duplications. They are highly prized by collectors. The hook should mention Bettini, as it was his collection of recordings that was destroyed, not a general set of cylinders. The loss of the Bettini set refers to his specific catalog that was destroyed. If you search Wikipedia, you’ll see that the term is well known. We even have a separate article about a later set, the Mapleson Cylinders. Viriditas (talk) 08:20, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
    • @Viriditas: In that case, how about something like "recorded on Gianni Bettini's wax phonograph cylinders"? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 08:29, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
      • How about Bettini Cylinders to match the Mapleson format? Currently a redirect. Viriditas (talk) 09:00, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
        • Sure Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:28, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
          • @Krisgabwoosh: It looks like the cylinders were likely destroyed in WWI, not WWII. The sources are at odds on this. I also found one that suggests that one of Engle's recordings survives. I tried to check the primary on this, but coudn't access them. The good news is that multiple sources have confirmed Engle is part of the Bettini cylinder catalog, so that's not in doubt by anyone. What we still don't know for sure is 1) whether Bettini's cylinders were destroyed in WWI or WWII (I'm fairly certain it was WWI, and the sources reporting WWII are just wrong. Bettini died in 1938.), and 2) whether there is a surviving copy of Engle's voice, which it looks like is possible, but also highly unlikely due to degradation. I think there's also a bit of ambiguiuty here, because "surviving" here could mean several different things. Viriditas (talk) 22:38, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
            • Note: I was able to confirm that opera singer Nellie Melba was among the first recorded by Bettini in 1896, three years after he recorded Mark Twain in 1893. This has been accepted by historians as verifiable due to several lines of evidence. It's not yet clear if Engle was recorded the same year as Melba or the next for the 1897 catalog offering. Viriditas (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
              • Update, I just found Bettini expert Robert Feinstein's 2024 article on the subject. Although he doesn't mention the war at all, I think it's become clear that the war explanation is false and was likely invented by a collector to raise the price of the cylinders. Feinstein notes that at least 300 have been found so far. Sadly, the war rumor is in a lot of the sources, but I notice the German wiki doesn't include it at all. I am going to pull this hook now and remove all of the war references from the wiki. I will come up with another hook by tonight. Apologies. This is the third time this has happened to me since the middle of 2025. Viriditas (talk) 00:24, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
• The war story gets more and more convoluted the more you look at it. Even the NYT back in 2008, attributed the destruction in some nebulous war idea, not to Bettini's collection, but to those of Julius H. Block! To me, that's more evidence that it's just a myth. It keeps changing, over and over again, like a game of telephone. I'm glad I removed it. As for a new hook, I'm thinking of something like "...that Marie Engle was among the earliest operatic singers recorded on rare Bettini cylinders and sold in a music catalog?" That's all true. Even though Nellie Melba may have been recorded first, Engle followed soon after and was one of the first to appear for sale in the original Bettini catalog. Viriditas (talk) 01:16, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
• It seems to me then that we need a new hook. The article now also needs to be updated, as some of the claims made are in contention. Your alternate hook sounds fine to me, although it really could be condensed to say "recorded and sold on rare..." Krisgabwoosh (talk) 05:38, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
  • I like your idea! Will return to this later. Viriditas (talk) 06:06, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
    • @Krisgabwoosh: I added ALT0a up above. Is that what you had in mind or something else? I updated the article yesterday, but let me know if it still needs an update based on your reading of it. Viriditas (talk) 21:56, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
      • I removed the last part. Viriditas (talk) 01:01, 24 January 2026 (UTC)
        • Yeah, this works for me just fine. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:51, 24 January 2026 (UTC)
          • @Krisgabwoosh: I removed "sold" after sleeping on it. Does not read well. Viriditas (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2026 (UTC)
• @Viriditas and Krisgabwoosh: While reviewing to promote I couldn't find any statements in the article verifying that the Bettini cylinders are "rare". Can this be worked in somewhere, or can the hook be reworked to omit that? (please mention me on reply; thanks!) —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 03:06, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
  • Sure, that's easy to do, but I'm going to be offline for the next five hours or so, so I can do it then. Viriditas (talk) 03:07, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
    • Note, it occurs to me that "rare" has two meanings here, so perhaps I will need to add a footnote to provide an explanation. The cylinders were rare because they were made to order and numbered so few, but were also rare for other reasons, such as their limited lifespan as a medium, and their limited total numbers in terms of a collectable. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
      • There's a lot of sources referring to rare Bettini sources, but I only added the two best ones. There are others already in this article as well. One thing I should note: even though 300 Bettini cylinders have been found, I very much doubt that the majority of them are playable given the degradation over time, so they are even more rare in spite of their existence. Viriditas (talk) 11:12, 17 February 2026 (UTC)

curious

I noticed this article as mentioned for IWD, and made a few corrections following the guidelines of project opera. I am curious:

• I don't see a ref for her grandmother having been a prima donna, which became a rather specific title.
• Do we know in which theatre she made her San Francisco appearance? 'cause a link to the present city is rather meaningless.
• In an interview she said she appeared at Covent Garden, - is that meant by Drury Lane?
• Same article calls her "high soprano"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:25, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I don't think it's going to run for IWD, but you never know.

• ref for her grandomther. There's been some changes. It was originally sourced in several places, but the most recent one is Slonimsky 1946, I believe. I will fix it.
• which theatre she made her San Francisco appearance. I spent weeks looking and found nothing, which was weird, because the SF papers should have that in the archives. I can try to look again. I will check the Grand Opera House and other venues. The text and source says she debuted as Zerlina in Mozart's Don Giovanni but at least one source said something else. Will look again.
• Covent Garden - is that meant by Drury Lane? I believe so, yes.
• Same article calls her "high soprano"? Yeah, there's little errors like this in the sources all over the place. I think that's an error, but I can look again.

Will update status of these tasks soon. Viriditas (talk) 01:39, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

New find: A "Signor Rasori", possibly a teacher at the Academy of Music in New York, was said to have also trained her. Viriditas (talk) 01:48, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

Engle appeared in Rossini's Semiramide at the Academy in December 1885. It was well received. Viriditas (talk) 02:03, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

SF appearance update. Her SF debut occurred in or after March 1886 at the Grand Opera House. I think there's a possibility that her role and the production are wrong. Still looking. Viriditas (talk) 01:56, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

Found it: Engle's first appearance was in SF at the Grand Opera House on April 2, 1886, in the role of Philine in Mignon. Viriditas (talk) 02:09, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

Added. Viriditas (talk) 04:11, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

ref for her grandmother having been a prima donna'. It's there. I just checked. It's at the end of the paragraph. There's another one in the article as well, so it's not just that one. Viriditas (talk) 04:11, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for all the replies and checking, and congrats to the opera houses finds!!

I looked at the ref at the end of that para but couldn't find the fact in it (because I'm not used to find anything in these old papers. Search function didn't help me, I found too many Marie but not her last name or that of her grandmother.)

Philine is a soprano role, coloratura soprano even, and I think that at the time, they just didn't distinguish voice parts as we do now. There is no mezzo-soprano in any opera by Mozart and Wagner.

Similarly, I don't think they used "prima donna" in the same way it came to be later, but just meaning "leading lady" or "singer of lead roles". I'm afraid that Titania's aria will now stay with me for hours ;) - although I never saw any Thomas opera on stage. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:03, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

There's still a lot left out. I found the 1885 appearance up above. There's also the attempted blackmailing by a music publisher who wouldn't publish good reviews of her unless she paid them. Maybe an early 19th century version of payola, I don't know. Anyway, she refused to pay, and after that the music press either ignored her or gave her bad reviews. My guess is that's one reason she left the industry. Then there's the music advertisements she did for the next 20 years for piano companies. Viriditas (talk) 11:10, 31 January 2026 (UTC)