Talk:Marc Mac

Expanding Marc Mac wiki article

Hello everyone! If anyone has the motivation I would love assistance in improving the Marc Mac article. His legacy is massive ! Much thanks I&I22 (talk) 02:18, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Also no idea where these n/a categories came from???!!! I did not add them. Of course his legacy is extremely important and helped shaped both the UK edm music economy and contemporary edm music scene! Not sure how to fix those unwelcome additions. I&I22 (talk) 02:22, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

NA just means importance hasn't been rated yet (only articles are able to have ratings), it doesn't mean that these topics are unimportant :). GoldRomean (talk) 18:34, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

aha thank you! I&I22 (talk) 21:01, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Citations for Marc Mac article

Books

1. Terzulli, Paul; Otchere, Eddie (2021). Who Say Reload: The Stories Behind the Classic Drum & Bass Records of the 90s. Velocity Press. pp. 14–18. ISBN 9781913231071
2. James, Martin (2020). State of Bass: the Origins of Jungle/Drum & Bass (2nd ed.). Velocity Press. ISBN 9781913231026.
3. Shapiro, Peter (1999). The Rough Guide to Drum 'n' bass. Rough Guides. pp. 71–75. ISBN 9781858284330.
4. Muggs, Joe; Stevens, Brian David (2020). Bass, Mids, Tops: An Oral History of Sound System Culture. Strange Attractor Press. ISBN 978-1907222771
5. Steven, Colin, ed. (2020). Knowledge Magazine 25 Year Anniversary. Velocity Press. ISBN 9781913231019.

I&I22 (talk) 21:36, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Articles & Reviews

1. "The gentrification of jungle". Mixmag. Retrieved 2025-04-30.
2. Hermes, Will (1998-11-22). "Dance Music Enlists A New Sound: Voices". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2025-05-31.
3. Burgess, John (2007-01-19). "4hero, Play With the Changes". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2025-05-31.
4. published, Tim Cant (2013-11-05). "Marc Mac on getting back to his hardcore and DnB roots". MusicRadar. Retrieved 2025-06-25.
5. History of Harlesden". Brent Council. Retrieved 2025-04-29.
6. Brent Black Music History: A Photo Gallery Report". Black History Month 2025. 2008-02-14. Retrieved 2025-06-18.
7. Sigaud, J. (2020-10-13). "Black London, Harlesden Through The Lens". EDITIONS Black History Month, Magazines, Windrush 75, Newsletters & Publications©. Retrieved 2025-06-18.
8. "Starlight Records formed (late 1970s)". www.layersoflondon.org. Retrieved 2025-06-18.
9. "Black Cultural Archives". Google Arts & Culture. Retrieved 2025-06-25.
10. "Rewind: 4hero - Mr. Kirk's Nightmare · Single Review ⟋ RA". Resident Advisor. Retrieved 2025-06-01.
11. "Reinforced Records". daily.redbullmusicacademy.com
12. updated, Jim McCauley Contributions from Joe Foley last (2017-03-23). "14 of the best record label logos". Creative Bloq. Retrieved 2025-06-25.
13. UK, Drum and Bass. "Reinforced Records Drum and Bass Label Profile | Drum & Bass UK". Drum and Bass UK. Retrieved 2025-05-31.
14. "The History of Rock Music. 4 Hero: biography, discography, reviews, best albums, ratings". www.scaruffi.com. Retrieved 2025-05-31.
15. "Mentors: How 4Hero Programmed Goldie's Software". Telekom Electronic Beats. 2016-02-26. Retrieved 2025-05-31
16. "Music Review: 4hero - Play With The Changes". Tiny Mix Tapes. Retrieved 2025-04-29.
17. "Solid Gold: How 4Hero's 'Two Pages' predicted the future of d&b". DJ Mag. 2020-01-23. Retrieved 2025-05-31.

Interviews & Podcasts

1. "Marc Mac (4Hero) – Windrush Stories". UK Podcasts. Retrieved 2025-05-31.
2. "AN INTERVIEW WITH MARK 'MARC MAC'". Jungle Drum and Bass. 2017-01-20. Retrieved 2025-06-01.
3. Britt, King; Rodgers, Tara (April 2022). "'We Cross Examine with Old Sonic DNA': King Britt and Tara Rodgers in conversation on Blacktronika, music technology and pedagogy". Organised Sound. 27 (1): 55–58. doi:10.1017/S1355771822000231. ISSN 1355-7718.
4. "In Conversation with King Britt — Coloring Lessons". coloringlessons.com. Retrieved 2025-06-25.
5. "Goldie The Alchemist - BBC Sounds". www.bbc.co.uk. Retrieved 2025-06-25.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 14:00, 15 August 2025 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Marc Mac is a British-Jamaican producer (one half of the group 4hero) whose album 'Two Pages' foretold the future sounds of drum 'n bass music?

• Source: Cardew, Ben (2020). Solid Gold: How 4Hero's 'Two Pages' predicted the future of d&b. DJmag. https://djmag.com/features/solid-gold-how-4heros-two-pages-predicted-future-db

• • Reviewed:

Created by I&I22 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

I&I22 (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2025 (UTC).

• Source:Kwame Safo with additional work by Seb Wheeler, "The gentrification of jungle: Kwame Safo talks to Marc Mac, Bryan Gee, DJ Flight and Junior Tomlin about the futuristic Black art form and why its Black roots should never be forgotten", 23 October 2020 https://mixmag.net/feature/the-gentrification-of-jungle
• New enough in mainspace and long enough. Nominator is QPQ-exempt. I don't think the hook works: it's puffery and unattributed. (The discography does not need a citation, though the detail on the labels and versions is probably excessive.) Look for a different fact, I&I22; I don't think this would be allowed to stand unless attributed to someone reasonably well-known. Sammi Brie (she/her · t · c) 18:58, 6 July 2025 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie - i don't really understand what you are saying here. Do you mean to express that Marc Mac is not well known? this is not true and a wildly unsubstantiated statement. it is not at all "puffery and unattributed" where did you get that? why would i bother even making the article if he wasn't an important yet overlooked piece of music history - he is well known as a pioneering artist of jungle and d'n b.if you do a little research it is easy to see this. i have no idea what qpg is but i will look it up thank you and figure out citations etc. also i don't understand speaking like this to ppl volunteering their sweet irreplacable time and learning the ropes on wikipedia, "Look for a different fact,". i get it - directness and all that i - i don't mind directness - but it seems a bit abrasive. Anyways, maybe i just have misunderstood you? and am making assumptions as have often encountered aggressive, condescending, unkind, rude, assumptive, suspicious or impatient-sounding comments from other more experienced editors when i have made some newbie error. alrightee i am not on here to bicker but it is fun when the convo is more respectful especially when putting in the time to learn and participate. thanks again and will look into it — Preceding unsigned comment added by I&I22 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 6 July 2025 (UTC)

@I&I22: Please read WP:PUFFERY for more context. Generally speaking, Wikipedia wants to avoid subjective words like "pioneering" in articles, especially without proper attribution. It's more of a case of show than tell, i.e. show how the person is "pioneering", rather than saying they are so. Regarding the "well-known" thing, I think Sammi was talking about a reviewer or source that says Mac is "pioneering", rather than claiming that Mac is not well-known. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:10, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: I see. Thank you for the puffery reference. On my end I understand the word pioneering differently, less promotional I suppose. I am on a bit of a break from Wikipedia. Can either of you let me know if there is a deadline for the updates? Much thanks I&I22 (talk) 05:54, 10 July 2025 (UTC)I&I22

• • Narutolovehinata5 is right. To make a claim like that requires appropriate backup, and big claims require lots of proof. That's a big claim. I'd be more than happy to help, but that's an important principle for editors to grasp. This sentence, for instance, has no reason to be there because it sounds so promotional: Reinforced Records has supported new musical genres and emerging artists, pioneering the sounds of 90's British dance music scene through mentorship, networking opportunities, collaboration and music production. Sammi Brie (she/her · t · c) 05:38, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie: ok, great that is helpful to know. Yes there are many sources to cite. I can't remember what I wrote before, but I cited many academic references on his article. I have changed the dyk question, does that read better - in keeping with Wikimedia protocols? Marc Mac is in the main reference books for edm particularly British ones. He and his group members coached Goldie in crafting/translating his sonic visions for Goldie's epic masterpiece Timeless. Their label Reinforced Records mentored and supported many essential UK edm producers. As this artist seems to have shied away from promos due to racial unrest which led to family tragedies perhaps - they have kept a behind the scene profile but they are an essential part of British culture and mentioned often in Wikipedia so found it was important to mention them and provide a more accurate context for the other article mentions. I appreciate the support and guidance as i fail my way to greater understanding. I do not understand the Wikipedia culture completely yet and am duty-bound to represent the underacknowledged cultural contributions of BIPOC folx.:)

• @Sammi Brie:

@Narutolovehinata5: Hello! I have no idea how to format my changes...I have edited directly into the code...does this work with these kinds of DYK projects? I understand now that my question was way too mundane!

• @Sammi Brie: @Narutolovehinata5: I have updated this DYK - Marc Mac's parents were community activists and helped to found the Black Cultural Archives which I see currently has a project with Wikimedia UK! So exciting! woohooooo! I&I22 (talk) 12:13, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

ALT2: ... that the British-Jamaican producer (and one half of the EDM group 4hero) Marc Mac's parents were part of the community team that founded the Black Cultural Archives in London?

Google Arts & Culture: Black Cultural Archives, "A celebration of Black History is a celebration of British History" https://artsandculture.google.com/project/black-cultural-archives

• • I've moved the new hook down so the original is still on the page. This is the first alternate hook or ALT1 in DYK parlance. This is a tough hook, I&I22, because it's about Marc's parents, not about Marc—which I don't think leads to a good hook about the subject. And I still have concerns about the tone and puffery. You can't make claims like "pioneering" etc. sourced to just one review. Sammi Brie (she/her · t · c) 17:40, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

• @Sammi Brie: ok great, am learning ha! ALT 1 rather than just delete, i understand now. Yes for sure am trying to avoid puffery but also he was an innovator so a pioneer, just a tricky vocabulary balance to manage!

Mentions of parents in the DYK archives do exist, the BCA is important history to know about and also it is interestingas is not common knowledge. For example, this is a DYK from January 15, 2025 "... that for television, James Mustapic set his mother up on a date with David Seymour, who will soon be the New Zealand deputy prime minister?"

Do the DYK's need more than one citation? There are many to choose from. This artist is cited in many places, including books on edm.

As I understand it the DYK's are interesting and also educational, which is my main goal with this one. I welcome feedback! Can keep trying. thanks again, I&I22 (talk) 17:50, 29 July 2025 (UTC) I&I22

That was still on something Mustapic did, which is not the case here. I still have some worries about the prose - do you have any sources on him and his role contributing to these genres that are not from individual reviews of works? As is I'm a bit concerned we are saying this so strongly sourced mostly to album reviews. PARAKANYAA (talk) 17:51, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

@I&I22: Please address the above. (For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of Tom & Jerry, both the cartoon and the band, and if I had my way we'd be running a hook beginning "that one half of Tom & Jerry...".)--Launchballer 14:40, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

• @Launchballer:@PARAKANYAA: @Sammi Brie: @Narutolovehinata5:Hello everyone! thank you to all of you for the support and interest and follow-up. Yahooo to you Launchballer as a Tom & Jerry fan! top notch dance music. I am finding the DYK writing to be strangely challenging even with learning about all the available resources! And this artist has kept a low grassroots profile, behind the scenes and mostly did interviews, which are not accepted here. OK, i will give a think and check my books am rereading the chapter of Peter Shapiro's Drum 'n Bass now for inspo! woot woot!

@Launchballer:@PARAKANYAA: @Sammi Brie: @Narutolovehinata5: I have added an ALT1 dyk question version

@PARAKANYAA: And yes I have many many references/citiation sources for this artist as this article was very challenging to publish. He is a staple in any books on EDM particularly British EDM. There are I believe 4 books that I cited in his article and a gazillion articles. He was at the start of 80s 90s UK electro-sound system scene and cofounded a record label that launched and supported many. his tunes have been listed in many a "top 10 list" etc. list of exceptional dance tunes. He was an engineer and used his training, pioneering UK electronic music sounds. This is not promo puffery, just facts. Hard to avoid as he and his colleagues mapped new soundscapes in UK EDM scene.

• Note to I&I22: pings only work if you sign your comments with the usual four tildes (~~~~); none of your pings will have gone through, so I'll add them here so people will see them: @Launchballer:@PARAKANYAA: @Sammi Brie: @Narutolovehinata5:. Please always sign your posts, whether you're pinging or not! Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:13, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

The hook you proposed, which I'm renaming ALT2, I'm moving down here: ALT2: ... that to circumvent anti-Black racism in the UK (like form 696) all early Marc Mac's Reinforced record albums produced in the 90s were faceless?

I like the hook, but brackets aren't allowed, so "(like form 696)" would need to come out. I also don't see where it is in the article.--Launchballer 17:32, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset:aha! ok thank you I will sign from now on ( was writing on mobile improv coding - i have not downloaded an app -if there is one ? In any case, much appreciated :) I&I22 (talk) 17:42, 11 August 2025 (UTC)I&I22

@Launchballer:yayahoooo progress! Marc Mac mentions this resourceful method of sidestepping the racism in several articles/interviews. Here it is in that particular article I cited: "Being a DJ, broadcaster, producer, promoter and label boss who has been active in soundsystem music since before the acid house explosion gives Marc Mac a unique perspective on the Black origin and evolution of jungle. He would battle police to run events and face what was arguably the beginning of the most punitive filter on Black promoted events, the 696 form, and as a rising artist would try to be as “faceless” as possible to circumvent the racial bias within the music industry and wider society. Albums like 4Hero’s ‘Parallel Universe’ were interwoven with subliminals and ran counter to the simplified hedonistic perspective of the rest of the rave scene, pushing an afrofuturist narrative based on the plight of Black people in the UK and inspired by the scientific progressiveness found in the Black music coming from contemporaries turned friends such as Kevin Saunderson and Underground Resistance in Detroit" - quote from "The gentricifation of jungle" article

Q: Is it possible to add photos to the dyk? I could not figure out how to do this - unless downloading the wikimedia commons image and then citing as mine, which seems not quite right. I&I22 (talk) 17:54, 11 August 2025 (UTC)I&I22

@Launchballer:Refined ALT2 DYK ... that to circumvent anti-Black racism in the UK, including form 696, Jamaican-British edm producer Marc Mac's Reinforced Records early project art and event promotions from the 90s were intentionally created WITHOUT faces? I&I22 (talk) 18:15, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

This is starting to get very jargony, but there is a promising angle here. The main problem, @I&I22:, is that none of this information is in the article. Hook facts need to be in the article, so you will have to make a content edit to incorporate this. If the "faceless" period is in the 90s, it is before Form 696 and so we can't include that. Sammi Brie (she/her · t · c) 18:59, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

ALT2b: ... that Marc Mac made his work deliberately "faceless" to combat racism?

--> @Sammi Brie: I hear you Sammi! Which words are you referring to specifically as jargon? The article speaks broadly and in my quote I am paraphrasing while also being specific in naming the record label. My DYK question is drawn from multiple interviews, but I understand that straight-up interviews are not considered credible. This is the article I could find that has an interview reworded by the journalist.

I can think of other options for jargon. As this is a BIPOC perspective, and I am participating in Wikipedia as a volunteer BIPOC microactivist, I believe a certain amount of contextualisation is necessary. It must be clear that the DYK is written by and for BIPOC ppl. with an anti-oppression pov. It is important to mention Marc Mac's origins. If the dyk's are meant to educate it will not alienate the curious. EDM enthusiasts will be delighted to see one of their own represented and will read all specific vocab. with minimal effort. Looking at today's DYKs I see all kinds of specific lingos: prosthetic legs, WW, IMAX screens...it all depends on what one is used to reading about I think? Excuse me if this sentiment is clumsily expressed. I seek to understand your viewpoint while respecting context-setting necessities for anti-oppression advocacy re: underrepresented/written out/excluded art forms and creators. I am on here to change things as I can. And this advocacy generally requires a potentially slightly awkward shifting of protocols/word usages/contexts (jargon/more links and info provided than usual).

How about:

ALT2c: ... that Jamaican-British electronic music producer Marc Mac's early work was deliberately created as "faceless" to circumvent anti-Black racism?

ALT2d: ... that Jamaican-British electronic dance music producer Marc Mac's early work was deliberately created as "faceless" to sidestep anti-Black racism?

Actually I have to think about this...it was not really a choice, they were forced to promo/create faceless work just to get permissions to hold events.

Warm regards, I&I22 (talk) 19:25, 11 August 2025 (UTC)I&I22

I get where you're coming from, but WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS may be of interest here. In any case, DYK generally prefers shorter hooks whenever possible, so ALT2b is probably the best option here from a DYK perspective. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:01, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: Thank you Narutolovehinata5. yes and to clarify, I don't mean to be completely non-neutral, I just mean to minutely level the playing field of representation by occasionally adding in some BIPOC creators, events etc. articles that have been missed. I think you understand! and great the wp site you mention is useful.

How about:

ALT3: ... that Marc Mac (pictured) made his early projects deliberately "faceless" to sidestep racism?

I&I22 (talk) 11:38, 12 August 2025 (UTC)I&I22

@I&I22: Excellent hook, please add the hook fact to the article.--Launchballer 14:30, 13 August 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer:Thank you so much! And please see version with article below. I am adding hook now in the article. Excuse me if I am not formatting all of this correctly. Rewind selectorrr! Here we go:

ALT3: ... that Marc Mac (pictured) made his early projects deliberately "faceless" to sidestep racism?

Source: Safo, Kwame; Wheeler, Seb (23 October 2020). "The gentrification of jungle:Kwame Safo talks to Marc Mac, Bryan Gee, DJ Flight and Junior Tomlin about the futuristic Black art form and why its Black roots should never be forgotten". Mixmag.net. Retrieved 2025-08-13.

--> Wikimedia commons image suggestion: File:Marc Mac of 4hero and Visioneers.jpg I&I22 (talk) 15:22, 13 August 2025 (UTC)I&I22

ALT3 checks out; I copyedited this to remove much of the puffery.--Launchballer 10:11, 15 August 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer: Alrighteee and what happens next? I believe that I think of "puffery" as contextualisation lol. When will I understand Wikipediaiaiaiaii culture of communication omg it is very interesting. Failing my way to understanding! Anyhooo, thank you Launchballer for the copyediting contributions.

Q:How does the dyk process work? Is there a posted schedule somewhere or a list of the dyk's to be published please? Much thanks I&I22 (talk) 14:38, 15 August 2025 (UTC)I&I22

You're looking for Template:Did you know/Queue; this is currently scheduled to air on 23 August.--Launchballer 15:32, 15 August 2025 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Marc Mac of 4hero and Visioneers.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:06, 9 August 2025 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Marc Mac of 4hero and Visioneers (cropped).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:21, 19 August 2025 (UTC)

Name mistake

The title of the article is clearly right.

The first sentence, though, needs changing. A person is not "also known as" their official name, so the first sentence should start like this:

"Mark Anthony Clair, known as Mark Mac, [... etc]."

After the very first sentence, it should always be the name everyone normally uses for him. TooManyFingers (talk) 19:48, 23 August 2025 (UTC)