Talk:Madri

Untitled

The following text was on the former article Pandavas, which has been replaced with a redirect. I've merged most text in that article into others, but have not used this pending clarification; “Madri was a princess of the Matsya kingdom.” I though Madri was named (Maadri) as princess of the kingdom of Madra. Imc 17:56, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Pandu at Shatasrunga Hill.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:23, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

This page needs serious corrections

A new user actively vandalised this page. Pularaviteja (talk) 20:15, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Suggestions

• Tense: The article fluctuates between past and present. As an epic character, the present is more appropriate.
• Which part (Parvas) of Mbh cover her?
• Are there other sources apart from Mbh that cover her tale. Check Harivamsa, Devi Bhagavata Purana in particular
• Patridge is WP:SELFPUB house. Thus, Roychowdhury, Debalina seems unreliable. Rest of the references look good
• Replace www.wisdomlib.org with Mani as it quotes Mani. I would include the following in the article: "Pandu lives in Indraloka with Mādrī and Kuntī. (Śloka 15, Chapter 5, Svargārohaṇa Parva)." for completeness

Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:08, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for all the input, will do it accordingly

Seyamar^💬📜 22:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Linking of references

Hi, I notice this article has been nominated for GA. I'm not qualified to comment upon the content or sourcing here, but I would just point out that a few of the sfn citations aren't linking correctly. Namely, "Buitenen 1973", "Brodbeck 2007", "Bhattacharya 2013", and "Chakrabarti 2017" don't link up with the intended targets in the bibliography. Best of luck with the GA review. – Michael Aurel (talk) 08:18, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

@Michael Aurel Thank you so much for pointing this out, I will look into it.Seyamar^💬📜 13:49, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

Fixed Seyamar^💬📜 15:50, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

GA review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Madri/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Seyamar (talk · contribs) 21:54, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Chilicave (talk · contribs) 00:10, 15 July 2025 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

Semi-protected from disruptive users. But stable for now.

1. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

2. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Comments

I'm in awe of the effort put into making this article what it is today. A few suggestions:

−Euphemisms like "love making", "perishing", "makes love" are avoided. Have a look at MOS:EUPHEMISM and replace them with words like "intimacy", "physical contact", "died"

I have changed most of them, but would like to know your suggestion on this line Despite Madri's repeated protests, Pandu makes love to her, forgetting the curse, which forbids him from intimate relations on penalty of death. Here instead of makes love, what can be used, because he did have sex with her but died before completion.Seyamar^💬📜

How about: "Despite Madri's repeated protests, Pandu initiates intimacy with her, forgetting the curse that forbids such relations on penalty of death"

Thanks, Y done. Seyamar^💬📜 09:24, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

–The article is well-written, but I do feel that the word choice used is hard to digest at first glance. Here are some examples of where wording can be simplified:

A. Mādrī derives etymologically from Madra, designating the northwestern Indian subcontinental kingdom from which she hails.

Hails can changed to originates

Y DoneSeyamar^💬📜

B. In the textual skein running from 103.9 to 119.12, Kunti is allotted 195 verses, Gandhari 36 and Madri 85, not counting descriptions of their sons at birth.

In the section spanning from 103.9 to 119.2...

Y DoneSeyamar^💬📜

Spot checks

–This line "Madri's role in the Mahabharata is brief, but thematically significant" is interpretive. It is not stated in sources but inferred from the sources which is WP:OR. I would either find a source that states that. If not, then you should remove it.

It was based on Telidevara, would rephrase to be closer to original text:

Mahabharata...had many characters with less page space but more significance in terms of impact and story progression. Madri, the second wife of Pandu was one such character that had a very brief role in the narrative compared to her co-wife Kunti. Seyamar^💬📜 09:24, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

–Source 6 (Buitenen 1973) is not necessary since it's a translation of the Mahabharat itself. Not very applicable unless it states how Madri's entire life is mentioned in the Adi Parva.

–any citations for these lines? Madri appears in the Mahabharata, one of the Sanskrit epics originating from the Indian subcontinent, which primarily narrates about conflict between two groups of cousins—the Pandavas and the Kauravas. Composed in Classical Sanskrit, the text is a composite work shaped over centuries of revisions, editing, and interpolations.

Souce 1 [Brockington 1998, p. 25-26] covers the details of the Mbh (main topic, interpolations, dating), except for the line "Madri appears in", which is obvious.Seyamar^💬📜 09:24, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

—source 33 looks good

–source 42: good

–source 44: good

–Madri's role in the Mahabharata is brief, but thematically significant. Her entire life—from her introduction to her death—is recounted in the Adi Parva, the first of eighteen parvas or 'Books' of the Mahabharata.

This is the one line I was unsure about. It might be an exaggeration to say that her "entire life–from her introduction to her death–" is found in the Adi Parva. Although you may be right, the sources attached do not explicitly state that. You would be adding your own POV by writing it that way so I would suggest making it more neutral "Her life is recounted in the Adi Parva."

Y Done. Seyamar^💬📜

@Chilicave: any update? Seyamar^💬📜 03:21, 21 July 2025 (UTC)

My apologies, just wanted to get a second opinion on something from the article. Jumping right back into it. Should be done with the review in a couple days.

Thanks Chilicave (talk) 05:05, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

-Images are either in the public domain or have a license compatible with WP.

-I also believe you overlooked my comment on Source 6? Have a look above and let me know if you are in agreement or not.

Oh, I already removed that as it was not necessary, forgot to reply to that.Seyamar^💬📜 15:07, 23 July 2025 (UTC)

Perfect then.

-I am unsure how this sentence Beyond the epic, Madri finds mentions in the Puranic genre of Hindu literature, such as the Bhagavata Purana, Matsya Purana and Vayu Purana, which attest mythological stories and genealogies.[12] correlates with the citation attached to it. Have a look and let me know.

Puranic index lists the Puranas in which Madri is specifically mentioned.Seyamar^💬📜 16:47, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

That makes sense, but when I go to the page number (651) I cannot find anything related to Madri on it. Perhaps the wrong page?

Oh, my bad, it is pg no. error, it should be p. 681, not 651.Seyamar^💬📜 12:50, 25 July 2025 (UTC)

-Source 67 looks like a blog, an unreliable source. If you look at WP:BLOGS, a possibility of keeping this source is if produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. Otherwise you'll have to remove it.

It is a blog, but the author is known for his works on Odiya language, see , .Seyamar^💬📜 16:47, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

alright, looks good Chilicave (talk) 21:05, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

just waiting on you to address the last question I had above and I'll be ready to wrap up the review! Thank you for your patience!

Thanks alot, Yes I have fixed the pg no. Just one query: The line —from her introduction to her death— can be inferred from Sorensen source, which list each and every verse location of her appearance. I think its appropriate to re add it.Seyamar^💬📜

Yes, I agree with you on that. I did ask for a second opinion on that and after giving much thought, it makes sense to re-add it. This article is officially a good article now. Congratulations.

Thank you so much :), I'm looking forward to more collaborations in future.Seyamar^💬📜 03:29, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by TarnishedPath talk 15:27, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

20th century lithograph on Madri

• ... that in the ancient epic Mahabharata, princess Madri (pictured) became a widow at the very moment she shared sexual union with her husband?

• Source: * Dharma: Its Early History in Law, Religion, and Narrative. Oxford University Press. pg. 406-7,
• On Hinduism. OUP USA. ISBN 978-0-19-936007-9. pg. 539

• • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Vaishnavism

Improved to Good Article status by Seyamar (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 6 past nominations.

Seyamar^💬📜 14:53, 26 July 2025 (UTC).

General eligibility:

• New enough:
• Long enough:
• Other problems:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
• Other problems:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:
• Other problems:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Wild story! But verified by both sources. Sufficiently new and sufficiently long. Copyvio on the article looks good, and QPQ is satisfied. Just a few notes...

• Should "princess" not by capitalized, per MOS:PEOPLETITLES? Or is it being used generically?

It is being used genetically here, so I don't think MOS:PEOPLETITLES would apply here

Fair enough!

• Is there a reason that Mahabharata is not linked? I am new to reviewing DYKs, so it's possible that I'm just insufficiently familiar with the policy on non-bolded links, but that article seems to be in decent condition and a link to it seems like it would be appropriate.

Tbh, I am not sure about it, usually such things like additional linkings are done by senior editors while they prepare the dyk for main page

Okay, got it.

• I think ...became a widow at the very moment... might sound slightly better, but that doesn't disqualify this hook. I'll let you decide if you want to change it or not.

okay, I agree with your suggestion.

Made some edits to the info summary/licensing sections on commons to make the PD rationale more explicit, but the image does appear to be in the public domain both in India and the US. EDIT: Okay, everything looks good to me now! Spookyaki (talk) 05:49, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

• Pulled per discussion on WT:DYK. Consensus seems to be that this will not be able to fly under the radar with a WP:DYKFICTION exemption so it'll need a new hook. RoySmith (talk) 20:51, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

@RoySmith: Though I am still unconvinced about it failing DYKFiction criteria, I respect the consensus, therefore I can suggest following "real-life" alts:

• ALT1: ... that the epic Mahabharata preserves two contradictory accounts of the death and cremation of Madri (pictured)?
• ALT2: ... that introduction of Madri (pictured) in the Mahabharata marks the epic’s first portrayal of conjugal rivalry, with her emerging as Kunti’s principal rival?
• ALT3: ... that some scholars dispute the Mahabharata’s account of Madri's self-immolation on her husband’s pyre, often cited as one of the earliest attestations of the practice in Indian literature?
• Source:
  • Hook 1: Chakrabarti, Arindam; Bandyopadhyay, Sibaji (2017). Mahabharata Now: Narration, Aesthetics, Ethics; p 35
  • Hook 2: Hiltebeitel, Alf (28 July 2011). Dharma: Its Early History in Law, Religion, and Narrative; p 395-6
  • Hook 3: M. A. Mehendale (1 January 2001). Interpolations In The Mahabharata. pp. 200–201.; Pattanaik, Devdutt. "Maybe Madri did not commit sati in the Mahabharata?"; Kitts, Margo (1 May 2018). Martyrdom, Self-Sacrifice, and Self-Immolation: Religious Perspectives on Suicide; p 165
    • @Seyamar: Still feel fairly out of my depth in assessing WP:DYKFICTION, though if the original hook was ineligible, I don't really see how hooks 1 and 2 would be. They both discuss events that happen within the Mahabarata. Hook 3 seems the least likely to be an issue with DYKFICTION, but it's also a bit vague and hard to follow. Based on the sources, it seems like what is disputed is whether or not Madri committed sati, but that's not really very clear from the hook. You could go with something like:

...that while some say that the Mahabharata's account of Madri’s self-immolation is one of the earliest attestations to the practice in Indian literature, others say it is contradicted by the next stanza?

Or, to be honest, you could just say try:

...that some scholars say that the Mahabharata's account of Madri’s self-immolation is one of the earliest attestations to the practice in Indian literature?

I will say that I was able to verify all three hooks in their respective sources (though the page number for Hiltebeitel was 383, not 395). If anyone else has more insight on the application of DYKFICTION to the first two hooks, would be appreciated. Spookyaki (talk) 16:53, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

@Spookyaki: ALTs 1-3 are fine on a DYKFICTION front, though I'd end ALT2 at 'rivalry' and ALT3 at 'self-immolation' and I'd probably go belt and braces and promote ALT3.--Launchballer 00:06, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for your insight! @Seyamar: what are your thoughts? Spookyaki (talk) 01:52, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

@Spookyaki:@Launchballer: I agree with alt 3, but it should end at "pyre". Seyamar^💬📜 09:11, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

Just went into assess ALT3. Right now, 'many scholars have' is cited to a single citation.--Launchballer 23:10, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

That is true in the article, though I think you could argue that Sukthankar, cited later in the same paragraph, counts as a second person questioning the account's authenticity. The claim is accurate, but could be better supported by some of the sources listed for this nomination. @Seyamar, what do you think? Spookyaki (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer: If you are referring to the article section, the subsequent paragraphs (as @Spookyaki: pointed out) cite other sources—Suthankar, Mehendale, and Pattnaik—that support the use of ‘many,’ although it could be changed to ‘some’ to be on the safer side.Seyamar^💬📜 19:13, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

Alright, I see it. Per the above, I am approving ALT3a: ... that some scholars dispute the Mahabharata's account of Madri's self-immolation on her husband's pyre?--Launchballer 10:37, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

Edit request

Change:

"Madri, however, resists Kunti's request, stating that she feels bound to Pandu by an unfulfilled union, as he approaches her in desire at the time of his death."

to:

"Madri, however, resists Kunti's request, stating that she feels bound to Pandu by an unfulfilled union, as he approached her in desire at the time of his death."

i.e. "approached", past tense (Pandu is dead by this point).

2A02:8071:184:4E80:0:0:0:6F0F (talk) 02:01, 13 September 2025 (UTC)

 Done. Theeverywhereperson (talk here) 06:59, 13 September 2025 (UTC)