Talk:Lesbian flags

Emily Gwen did not create the orange-pink or sunset flag

Shapeshifter of constellation made it a whole year earlier than Emily Gwen, and Emily just flipped it and took all the credit.

https://www.tumblr.com/sirenium/764185791190695936/shapeshifter-of-constellation-butchspace-i?source=share 2601:500:8786:7F30:288D:9809:7DD:CD2E (talk) 23:39, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

Because of the frequency at which pride flags were being created and remixed on Tumblr in the 2010s, I would not rule out the possibility that two bloggers both separately had the idea to splice together the lipstick lesbian & orange butch flag and put the pink one and the orange one flowing into each other . The notion of "stealing" or even attributing a simple geometric shape is a bit silly.

Unless there are reliable sources (WP:TUMBLR) which make note of this, the article can't meaningfully comment on earlier variations of the sunset flag. Someone besides Wikipedia will have to break the scandal first. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 01:43, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

hmm I disagree that this is ‘silly’ and would argue that any attempt at clarifying information is never a bad thing! With the recent uptick in discussion and debate around Emily Gwen online and their contribution to the design of the flag, I think this is a valid point and something that deserves a mention if they are to be named as the sole creator. If the flags creation was a collaborative effort on tumblr or a splicing of existing flags that can’t truly be attributed to one single person I think that should be stated instead. :•) Gromithead (talk) 09:54, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

Again, we would need a reliable source which claims this. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 13:10, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

Understandable, may I ask why this post dated July 2017is not a reliable source for the first instance of the sunset flag? The source for Emily Gwen’s post leads to a Tumblr post made in June 2018 of essentially the same image rotated. - This was asked in a comment before so I understand I might be missing something and am happy to learn. :•) Gromithead (talk) 13:37, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

See WP:TUMBLR. Social media is not a reliable source for claims involving third parties. Without WP:RS, we cannot set the record straight on Gwen stealing or purportedly creating another user's design (consisting of 7 color stripes "stolen" from two other flags) by flipping it 180 degrees. There's simply no evidence that this occurred.

I think the text A similar combination of the two flags, with the colors reversed, was also created in 2017. is possibly justified but still questionable. Anything involving Critics or expressions of doubt requires a WP:RS. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 16:35, 28 February 2026 (UTC)

My own social media consumption made me aware that this discourse is top of mind for the online lesbian community, due to allegations accusing Gwen of allegedly soliciting donations while lying about her financial status. I have no stake in defending her and no idea whether this is true, but will gently ask everyone to mind WP:BLP.

If them.us, LGBTQ Nation, or The Advocate take the opportunity to publish the True Untold History of the Lesbian Pride Flag, then there you go. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 16:58, 28 February 2026 (UTC)

This seems like a clear situation of sources being wrong. We should probably cut the mention of the supposed creator altogether until we get better coverage. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:02, 28 February 2026 (UTC)

Emily Gwen's sadlesbeandisaster Tumblr is used as a source for the origin of the Orange-Pink flag, and her Tumblr page describing the meaning of each of the flag's colors is used as a source for their symbolization. Additionally, the official-lesbian-flag Tumblr page "the search for the official lesbian flag" is used as a source for the Tumblr poll that changed the original seven-stripe flag design to five stripes. These are three times that Tumblr is referenced in the article. As this 08:26, 1 March 2026 edit summary indicates, other Tumblr sources about a similar flag that were published before Gwen took credit in 2018 for the Orange-Pink flag must also be included if Gwen's Tumblr is allowed to be used as a source for the flag. We can't take sides about which Tumblr source can stay, and which one cannot. Pyxis Solitary (yak). ⚢ – not queer. 10:02, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

"Though an otherwise identical, inverted flag was created in 2017, this version of the flag is attributed to Tumblr blogger Emily Gwen in 2018"

Why use passive voice here and why not mention the name of the original/other creator, Shapeshifter of constellation? It's one thing to hide that there's a controversy, it's another to completely obfuscate the name of the first person who made the flag.

Why not something like this:

"The first version of the orange-pink flag was created by Tumblr blogger Olivia (Shapeshifter of constellation) in 2017. She said it is a splice between the lipstick flag that was currently in use and the butch flag created by user butchspace. The white line represents those who identify as neither femme nor butch.

https://www.tumblr.com/shapeshifter-of-constellation/162570229392/butchspace-i-loooooove-your-orange-butch-flag?source=share

Another Tumblr blogger, Emily Gwen, made an inverted but otherwise identical version of this flag in 2018, and this is the version of the orange-pink flag most in use today."

(You could even mention the context that many flags were at that time being created and transformed as a community effort on Tumblr.)

I think it should be noted, however, that Shapeshifter of constellation does actually claim credit for the creation of the orange-pink flag and that credit was stolen from her by Emily Gwen.

https://www.tumblr.com/shapeshifter-of-constellation/809900823183310848/help-bi-woman-recover-from-job-loss?source=share Peachyratio (talk) 16:41, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

I agree and think the page should be amended soon to limit the spread of further misinformation, I’m happy to do this later (given editing is unlocked) if no one beats me to it but it will need sprucing up :•p. As stated above, recent developments have Olivia claiming she was the first to make the flag, which was later stolen (her words) by Emily. This is a tumblr post, as are the flag posts first made by Butchspace, and Olivia in 2017.

I understand tumblr may not be seen as a reputable source in this instance which is fine, but in this case I argue we remove all other links to tumblr, including the 2018 post made by Emily. This has been stated above by Elli and Pyxis, we cannot cherry-pick tumblr sources and it might be easier to cut the mention of a creator altogether until we can reach some sort of consensus.

If you would like a non-tumblr source mentioning Olivia and the flag dispute there is this Wiki as well as multiple online store pages, I can include these if needed but doubt they will fall under reputable source guidelines. I understand there is current discourse surrounding the identity of Emily which is no doubt increasing traffic to this page. Many news articles and blogs continue to use this wikipedia page as their only source when talking about the flag’s impact on LGBTQ+ history. That’s why I think it’s all the more important we get our facts straight and stop the perpetual cycle of misinformation. Thank you for everyone’s input I love wikipedia so much :•)!! Gromithead (talk) 23:39, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

We certainly can; citing Tumblr posts as sources for the Gwen's stated meaning of the flag, and the existence of a 5-stripe version are WP:ABOUTSELF since these are not exceptional claims and don't involve third parties.

My understanding of the essay WP:WSAW addresses the situation in which reliable sources are contradicted by other reliable sources, not by social media. Per the advice to "quietly get it right", softening created by to attributed to or popularized by is the best we can do within WP:editorial discretion without breaking WP:RS. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 01:15, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

You're welcome to remove those sentences in the name of alleged "fairness", but I don't see it as an improvement of the article and I don't personally consider it necessary. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 01:17, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

The essay also touches on the situation where no reliable source gets it right (see the "Say nothing" approach, which is along the lines of what I am suggesting here). Elli (talk | contribs) 04:09, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Primary sources for the True Lesbian Flag Creator --Guy Macon (talk) 22:34, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

I think that per WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:WSAW it's perfectly valid to write Though an otherwise identical, inverted flag was created in 2017,(ref), where the ref is a direct link to the web.archive.org showing the earlier date and the flag. It would also be perfectly valid to say nothing about either alleged creator. Leijurv (talk) 06:04, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

Some sources I found:

1. https://nerdykeppie.com/blogs/news/the-inclusive-lesbian-sapphic-flag-what-is-it-why-do-we-use-it WP:BLOG.
2. https://pride.daena.me/flags/lesbian-pride/ WP:SELFPUB.
3. https://web.archive.org/web/20190608151937/https://majesticmess.com/encyclopedia/lesbian-flag-sadlesbeandisaster (archived blog, static source)
4. https://catsnco.com/prideflags.html (WP:WEBHOST?).

My comment: the 2017 version starts with pink at the top and ends with orange at the bottom; the 2016 flag design is too saturated/neon (at least its online version). Abesca (talk) 07:03, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

Hi :)! What edit are you proposing? Gromithead (talk) 07:44, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

None. I'm just informing that the flags are kinda different and trying to bring some secondary sources for debaters to review. Abesca (talk) 07:49, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

the flags are kinda different. See this in the Noticeboard discussion linked above. Pyxis Solitary (yak). ⚢ – not queer. 09:03, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

Everyone, please make sure that you read the entire thread at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Primary sources for the True Lesbian Flag Creator. Key points:

• This is all WP:OR. We can use our original research on talk pages and noticeboards and we can use it in articles to decide whether to say "Kermit the Frog is green" or "According to Jim Henson, Kermit the Frog is green" (wikivoice vs attributed) but we cannot change any actual article content based solely on our original research. We have to say what the sources say. I know this can be frustrating, but it is the only way the run an encyclopedia. If we allowed my original research (which is solid) to influence the actual content of any articles, how could we then reject another editor's original research (which is total bullshit) that comes to the conclusion that J.K Rowling is right about trans women, rape, and public restrooms (she isn't)? No, we both have to follow the sources even if we are personally convinced that the sources are wrong.
• By my WP:OR calculations, the odds of these two flag makers having independently combined the pink flag and the butch flag and independently ended up with the exact same RGB values is roughly 1 in 1,208,925,819,614,629,174,706,176. I do this sort of calculation for a living and will be happy to walk anyone through the math and my assumptions.

It occurs to me that some here may not know me or my biases (we all have biases, some good, some bad). I am the author of WP:YWAB and heavily involved in the areas of pseudoscience and quack medicine. I have also been supporting the LGBTQ+ community and opposing hate since the 1980s. There is quite a story about that; ask me on my talk page if you wish to know more. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:21, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

Sorry but could you clarify if you think the wording Though an otherwise identical, inverted flag was created in 2017,(ref) is WP:OR? Given that the cited source is a internet archive showing an identical inverted flag from 2017. Leijurv (talk) 19:02, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

The color differences compared to the source are indistinguishable from those naturally introduced by JPEG compression, so I'm hesitant to treat them like a smoking gun. A likely candidate for the "canonical" Pink Flag design that a 2017/2018 Tumblr user would be aware of is this hi-res one from pride-color-schemes. Gwen and Olivia's match the "White" and "Dusty Pink" stripe exactly, and the "Pink" and "Dark rose" stripes differ by ±1 bit on each channel. The "butch" colors are exactly identical to the source. It's certainly difficult to believe that two colors would collide like this naturally (e.g., by uploading to a social media site with lossy image compression), but not astronomically so.

I provide the below table as a curiosity; I hope we are all in agreement that amateur digital forensics constitutes WP:OR and should not be a deciding factor in article text.

Color		Lipstick Flag	Lipstick Flag (2016 repro)	Pink Flag (2015 repro)	Butch flag (2016)	Proto-Sunset Flag (2017)	Sunset Flag (2018)	5-Stripe Sunset Flag (2018)
	Author	Natalie McCray	Pride-Flags Deviantart	Pride-Flags Deviantart	Butchspace	Olivia B	Emily Gwen	taqwomen
	Source	thislesbianlife	deviantart	deviantart	tumblr	tumblr	tumblr	tumblr
Dark rose		(163,0,97)	(166,1,98)	(164,0,97)		(165,1,98)	(165,1,98)	(163,2,98)
Dusty pink		(182,85,145)	(185,83,148)	(183,85,146)		(183,85,146)	(183,85,146)
Pink		(207,99,165)	(210,96,166)	(208,99,166)		(209,98,166)	(209,98,166)	(211,98,164)
White		(237,237,235)	(237,237,235)	(237,237,235)	(255,252,237)	(237,237,235)	(237,237,235)	(255,255,255)
Light orange					(255,155,87)	(255,155,87)	(255,155,87)	(255,154,86)
Orange					(240,117,40)	(240,117,40)	(240,117,40)
Red-orange					(214,44,0)	(214,44,0)	(214,44,0)	(213,45,0)

–RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 05:08, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

While we're in OR and WP:SELFPUB territory, someone at the RSN pointed out that a third person, Tumblr user @catastrfy claims to have independently remixed the Lipstick Flag into flags which are very similar to the Butch and Sunset flag while allegedly predating both of them. This would be extraordinary if true, but unlike the others this is more difficult to verify this claim as there are no timestamped contemporary sources. Depending on your level of conspiratorial thinking, this either speaks to how easy it could be to accidentally "steal" a pride flag design in the 2010s (there are no new flags under the sun), or means that at least one more party in this story is a despicable thieving liar. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 05:53, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

Okay, so if there was a saturated but similar flag allegedly made sometime before the 2018 Emily post, and a flag certifiably made in 2017, does this not further the argument that we don’t actually know where the sunset flag truly originated and thus it would be wrong to claim Emily was the first to design it?

I am personally content with the page as it stands and am not advocating we put in a paragraph on flag theft because I don’t think we will ever have wp:rs to back that claim. I think noting Olivia’s flag is important and wouldn’t be opposed to mentioning Chris (catastrfy) in a sentence mentioning previous similar flags or detailing the communal creation of flags on Tumblr.

I would be willing to back @Elli’s argument for eradicating naming a creator entirely (especially only a sole creator) based on wp:wsaw approach 5: say nothing. We have many contradicting sources on where the flag actually originated. Gromithead (talk) 07:39, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Gay men's flags which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:20, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Rainbow flag with blue canton and interlocking female signs

In addition to adding the two commonly cited Butch Flags to the article (since there exist multiple sources establishing them), I've rearranged the gallery so that each flag appears in its respective section. Open to improved templating on this; however the naive version of simply floating thumbnails alongside the article text looked quite bad due to poor alignment. To that end, I moved the Rainbow Flag with Interlocking Venus Symbol design into the first section alongside the Labrys Flag, and added a sentence describing its use As early as 2000. The citation to Zimmerman (2000) would appear to indicate that the two flags are contemporaries, but I'm not actually sure this is true as I don't currently have access to the text. @Pyxis Solitary: I recall you have a copy of this source, could confirm whether Dr. Zimmerman is describing this flag in particular, or the ⚢ symbol in general? –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 06:53, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

Symbol. "...two interlocking female symbols are also often used to signify lesbianism...the symbol of Venus... which once represented life, love, and sexuality, is now both a botanical and zoological symbol of femaleness, as well as the astronomical symbol of the planet Venus. Lesbian and feminist communities have also adopted the symbol, using two interlocking Venus emblems to represent lesbianism or, alternatively, the sisterhood of women". Pyxis Solitary (yak). ⚢ – not queer. 13:45, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

References