Talk:Labor Right

Queensland Labor Unity Left or Right?

Okay so I have tried to add and then re add Queensland Labor Unity (also known as the Old Guard) into the state factions within the Queensland section because I believed initially that QLD Labor Unity is a Labor Right faction that only worked in pact with the Labor Left in the state while simultaneously working as a centrist faction between Labor Left and Labor Forum while still nationally working as a Labor Right faction. However, one of the sources I put in (which might be outdated admittedly but it mentioned the right aligned National Union of Workers which later merged with the more left aligned United Voice to form what is now the left aligned United Workers Union) sort of implied otherwise and made me realise I could be wrong and made a mistake so I had to quickly removed QLD Labor Unity from the state factions as I do not want to spread misinformation or cause confusion or any fights or conflicts between those who think QLD Labor Unity is right aligned and those who believe it is left aligned (which to be fair there is some level of truth to that at least in Queensland), so all I have to ask is would it actually be appropriate to have QLD Labor Unity in the state branches for Labor Right in Queensland or just leave QLD Labor Unity out of it? I must sincerely apologise for any confusion, misinformation & other mistakes made here if I am entirely in the wrong. VelvetKnight (talk) 03:06, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

It’s its own faction which has historically allied with both the left and the right, I don’t think it’s fair to group them with a faction like Labor forum which is 100% a Labor right faction 120.22.213.26 (talk) 03:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay so after doing a bit more research, while yes it is true that Queensland Labor Unity is currently aligned with The Left (the Labor Left faction in Queensland Labor) and doesn’t exactly align with Labor Forum and is practically a centralist faction within Queensland Labor that has historically worked with both The Left & Labor Forum, if you read the “About Us” pages for both The Left (https://theleft.org.au/) & QLD Labor Unity (https://www.qldlaborunity.com/) you’ll see that the ideological positions of these two factions don’t exactly align and you’ll see why I still disagree with the notion that QLD Labor Unity is a “Labor Left” faction; QLD Labor Unity has stated on their page that they strive to be “the voice in our party for the silent majority of Labor branch members across Queensland” & advocates for “good social policy, with sound credible economic pragmatism”, which points towards more of a centrist Third Way position which is the universal position of Labor Right and is in stark contrast to The Left’s more left wing democratic socialist position. Seemingly, based on this research I think it is fair to say that at a national & federal level, QLD Labor Unity is a Labor Right faction that’s only ideologically centrist and is not a conservative faction, whereas Labor Forum is more likely the more conservative faction. I could be wrong on this and I could be missing some important information so feel free to add anything new if necessary. VelvetKnight (talk) 04:25, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Labor Right is not universally Socially Conservative

The source that were provided do not mention Labor Right was universally Socially Conservative, they were just about SDA Union , Historical or around politicians rather than Labor Right as a whole. Labor Right supports Same Sex Marriage (although a few of its members oppose) and does not have stance on Abortion (support varies by members). Mhaot (talk) 23:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I’d say this is correct, I think the minority label is a compromise, I have tried to remove it a few times since it’s a very small and shrinking group in the party 114.75.209.39 (talk) 04:17, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the Minority label (and perhaps even adding Historical) is more accurate and a compromise. Social conservatism is only apporiate if their views and visions are for traditional social structures which is not what most Labor Right MP's even hold let alone advocate. Given not even the Liberal Party of Australia is labeled Social conservatism (except for National Right faction) although they are labelled Australian Conservatism . Mhaot (talk) 10:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

I have put the “Minority” label back in as it is more accurate and it is a better compromise than the “Historical” label because the latter label implies that social conservatives don’t exist anymore within Labor Right. However, in reality, social conservatives still exist within Labor Right, they are just a minority today. By the way, what I meant in my edit statement when I said “it compromises between the historical and contemporary Labor Right” is that it is fair to say that social conservatives did dominate Labor Right historically but now the contemporary Labor Right is dominated by Third Way centrists but social conservatives still exist within the faction as a minority. I apologise if my edit statement was nonsensical or wasn’t clear enough. VelvetKnight (talk) 04:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Which labor right MPs are socially conservative? I don’t know of any 120.22.42.154 (talk) 09:29, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

New South Wales Senator Deborah O'Neill is a notable example of a conservative Labor Right MP. Tasmanian Senator Helen Polley is another notable example. Although no longer active in politics, former Victorian Senator Jacinta Collins was also known for her conservative views in her time as a Labor Senator for Victoria. Milton Dick is another Labor Right MP who also has conservative views of his own. Although not a MP, trade union offical and former National President of the SDA Joe de Bruyn is also staunchly conservative. Just to name & link you to some notable examples of socially conservative Labor Right MPs & associates, both past and present. VelvetKnight (talk) 10:39, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

A source needs to be given that explicitly says this is a minority. See WP:SYNTH. Helper201 (talk) 22:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Except no source mentions that Labor Right is universally adheres to 'Social Conservativism'. Every source either mentions it has some politicians, historical or the SDA Union which is not enough to call them 'Social Conservativism' as their main ideology. Mhaot (talk) 07:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

That changes nothing. We still need a source to explicitly say this exists as a minority. Helper201 (talk) 00:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

The ABC Source - https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/religionandethicsreport/what27s-happened-to-the-conservative-wing-of-the-australian-la/5012014 - it mentions in the podcast that it is historical and even mentions it is only a minority (as of 2013)

The Sydney Morning Herald - https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/what-are-labor-s-factions-and-who-s-who-in-the-left-and-right-20210210-p5718j.html - mentions that it is filled with slightly more economically dry and pro-us (which is third-way centrist) and vaguely worded that is in some cases a bit more 'socially conservative' but even then that might not mean they are socially conservative

Again, none of the sources cited mentions 'Social Conservativism' as their main ideology. Mhaot (talk) 00:24, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

The first source would come under WP:AGE MATTERS, it’s a source from eleven years ago and clearly a lot will have changed politically since then, both within the Labor Right and the mother party. As for the second, it falls foul of WP:SYNTH. Please stop reverting. As I mentioned the onus is on you to get the consensus for adding info, not on the person seeking to remove it. Helper201 (talk) 00:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Except it was you were the one that first deleted the 'minority' label that was once a long held consensus

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Labor_Right&diff=prev&oldid=1262154445

Plus the Jacobin source is Opinion Piece (https://jacobin.com/2020/07/australian-labor-party-factions) which by Wikipedia Conventions, Opinion Pieces are not viewed as reliable sources unless handled by certain guidelines.

I concede that there is not likely enough recent sources however no mentions sources explicitly mentions Labor Right having 'Social Conservativism' as their main ideology or wise that would actually fall with Wikipedia:SYNTH. Mhaot (talk) 01:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

There wasn't a consensus (i.e. no talk page discussion on the matter nor consensus), just that no one had challenged this.

I agree that opinion pieces should never be used to make factual claims. However, I can see nothing indicating that the Jacobin source is an opinion piece. Normally if an article is an opinion piece it indicates as such at the top of the page and/or in its url, neither of which this Jacobin article does.

No one is saying social conservatism is their "main" ideology. Just that it is an ideology of the Labor Right. Helper201 (talk) 02:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Let’s restart the debate, all the sources only indicate Social Conservativism is just a faction/minor Labor Right not a main ideology. Mhaot (talk) 01:00, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

And what sources explicitly say that social conservatism is a minority or faction, as per WP:SYNTH? Helper201 (talk) 12:31, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

All the referenced sources matches well that it should be labelled 'Minority'

1) SBS Source https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/labor-shoppies-still-powerful-senator/dm6tnjq1t - this is referencing about Shoppies Union (Shop, Distributive and Allied Employees Association) not Labor Right itself. While it is true that some Labor Right people have links to SDA, they are not technically related organizations.

2) ABC Source https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/religionandethicsreport/what27s-happened-to-the-conservative-wing-of-the-australian-la/5012014 - it mentions that it was historical and if you listened in the radio, even the ABC Source indicated Labor Right can be split into two groups (Social Conservatives and non-Social Conservatives) and has even mentioned Religious Social Conservatives are diluting

3) Sydney Morning Herald https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/what-are-labor-s-factions-and-who-s-who-in-the-left-and-right-20210210-p5718j.html- it best mentions 'More Socially Conservative than Labor Left' but would be heavily vague because that also applies with 'Liberal Party being more progressive than One Nation, etc'

4) The Australian Source https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/kitching-caters-for-labors-conservative-core/news-story/ea0737a7aeb075f37dc59582cc10a16c?amp= - it is just about then late Labor Right senator creating a bipartisan political group which again isn't fully related to Labor Right itself Mhaot (talk) 09:04, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

None of these explicitly say that social conservatism is a minority or faction within Labor Right. All you have to do is provide a direct quote that says as such and the reliable source it comes from. You have provided no such quote that explicitly says as such. Helper201 (talk) 20:48, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

I know you trying desperately to find arguments despite showing I completely evidence as I have checked all sources thoroughly and clearly the second source clearly mentions that Social Conservatism is a minority or faction within Labor Right and no source mentions at all that social conservatism is a majority or main ideology of Labor Right Mhaot (talk) 07:33, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

Calling editors @VelvetKnight @Auspol4 @TarnishedPath @ 120.22.42.154 @Czello to discuss Edit add in @HiLo48 Mhaot (talk) 07:34, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

@Mhaot I don't recall ever editing this article prior to your ping and if I had it would have been so long ago that I've forgotten. On what basis did you ping me and the other editors you selected? I've never seen Czello edit Australian politics (correct me if I'm wrong on that).

Ps, I've reverted your recent changes per WP:ONUS. I you wish to argue for the change I'd recommend ideally producing academic sources, written by subject matter experts in politics or political philosophy, which support your position. TarnishedPath^talk 08:13, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

Reverted the edit back given, it always had 'minority' or 'Historical, now minority:' marked in the infobox until late last year (without consensus nor discussion) which led to the contentious debate ever since. Pretty sure Czello had edited on the Liberal Party page. Mhaot (talk) 09:05, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

@Mhaot please read WP:CANVASSING. TarnishedPath^talk 09:09, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

I have edited some Australian politics, though infrequently. I know nothing about this topic (and am currently inactive owing to internet troubles) so I'll politely abstain from this discussion. — Czello ^(music) 22:52, 18 March 2025 (UTC)