Talk:Kremlin Plot

Name of the article

This case is also sometimes referred to as Дело «Клубок» или «Кремлёвское дело», so alternatively "Tangle Case" or transliterated as "Klubok Case" or just "Kremlin Case" There is not much information about this case on the english internet, there are many exact details such as court dates and the accused of this case that are present on other websites. There are also some resources that refer to this as the "Kremlin Affair" Padlocks (talk) 06:05, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

There's also another existing wikipedia article about Abel/Avel Yenukidze, another figure in this case accused of failing to exercise sufficient political vigilance in the Kremlin (didn't serve prison time) that refers to this as the "Kremlin Affair." There is also a wealth of references in that same article about this affair as well. Padlocks (talk) 23:44, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Kremlin Plot → Kremlin Affair – The article should be renamed "Kremlin Affair" instead of "Kremlin Plot" because other resources on the topic and other parts of Wikipedia referred to it as the "Kremlin Affair" before it was changed. "Kremlin Affair" is more recognizable and consistent with other sources. Padlocks (talk) 07:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 14:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 08:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• Include year in title, neutral vote. This specific event is so obscure that I think it would be better if the title included "1935". - Anonimski (talk) 19:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

  Agree, though the event is only obscure outside of the beginnings of what became the Great Purge. Padlocks (talk) 01:20, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

  The year should only be in the title if it might be confused with another Kremlin affair/plot. Is that the case? Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 13:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

  Somewhat, there are infrequent uses of the term "Kremlin Plot" in connection with more recent events involving the Kremlin such as the attempts on Navalnys life. I initially suggested the change to Kremlin Affair after seeing most scholars using the same terminology, its just a translation from «Кремлёвское дело» which can be translated as either, Kremlin Case, Kremlin Affair, or Kremlin Plot. These three are the most used to describe the event. Kremlin Affair has already been in use for decades specifically for this event as opposed to Kremlin Plot, I'm not opposed to adding a year to the title but its not strictly necessary. Kremlin Case also has usage, but still less than Kremlin Affair. There are other more uncommon names too, the NKVD dubbed it the "tangle," cleaners plot, etc. Padlocks (talk) 21:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Soviet Union has been notified of this discussion. Bensci54 (talk) 14:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Just scoping around, usage of both "Kremlin plot" and "Kremlin affair" seems pretty equally matched, neither dominating the other. I am more inclined to "plot" simply because "affair" is a little too generic and ambiguous and can refer to many things over the past century, whereas "plot" at least emphasizes its conspiratorial character, and is thus less generic, and more likely to be associated with the events of 1935. If the date is added, that would help. Walrasiad (talk) 18:58, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

  Here is a WP:GOOGLETEST for any relevant alternative names.

  I included "Yezhov" as any relevant discussion of the affair would inevitably include him.

  "yezhov" "kremlin affair" : 311 results

  "yezhov" "kremlin case" : 220 results

  "yezhov" "kremlin plot" : 73 results

  I wanted to change the name because from these scholars I've seen, they use "Kremlin Affair" when talking about this specific case and its used basically nowhere else. Hardly anyone except Christopher Andrews and Svetlana Lukhova are referring to this specific case with "Kremlin Plot," just look at JSTOR Search results and compare "Kremlin Affair" (10+ relevant results) to "Kremlin Plot" (1 relevant result, Christopher Andrews.)

  Padlocks (talk) 21:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

My Googlebooks search was "Kremlin Plot", 1935: 217 results and "Kremlin Affair", 1935: 165 results. Plot has the edge. Walrasiad (talk) 14:42, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

"Kremlin Plot", 1935 will return extraneous results such as any plot involving the Kremlin around that time, which is another reason to change this article's name. Include "Yezhov" (or "Ezhov") to find relevant results, the term "Kremlin Affair" has more books dedicated specifically to this topic.

"Kremlin plot" "Ezhov": 44 results

"Kremlin plot" "Yezhov": 48 results

"Kremlin affair" "Yezhov": 80 results

"Kremlin affair" "Ezhov": 98 results

Padlocks (talk) 23:18, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Not sure why you're bothering with Yezhov. He's barely mentioned in this article. And is usually not mentioned at all in most general references to this event. Date seems a better bet. Walrasiad (talk) 00:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Yezhov is the primary investigator of this case following the Kirov assassination, and ousted Yenukidze.

But to dispel all doubts, I'll include the date and the most associated figure with this case (to remove unrelated results):

"Kremlin affair" "Stalin" 1935: 220 results

"Kremlin plot" "Stalin" 1935: 146 results

Padlocks (talk) 02:31, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

‘The Tangle’, as the NKVD termed this affair, has acquired as many names as explanations: ‘Kremlin Affair’, ‘Cleaners’ Plot’, ‘Enukidze Case’, ‘Case of Librarians’, to name but a few. Robert Service sees the significance of the case as an act of revenge against Stalin’s maid (Service 2005:293) and Simon Sebag- Montefiore sees a wider Stalinist plot featuring a ‘wicked beauty’ (Sebag- Montefiore 2010: 178). J. Arch Getty views the case as a ‘further sharpening of political atmosphere’ (Getty 2010: 161), whilst Oleg Khlevnyuk sees it as an attack on the influence of the Politburo (Khlevnyuk 2008: 253) and Marc Jansen emphasises the terrorism link as a plan to liquidate political opposition (Jansen 2002: 31).

— Lokhova, Svetlana (2014). "Stalin, the NKVD and the investigation of the Kremlin Case". In Andrew, Christopher; Tobia, Simona (eds.). Interrogation in War and Conflict.

Padlocks, after i've had more time to look ignore most of what i said at FTN (but still a little leery of Andrew and Lokhova). :Those using "Kremlin Affair", Getty, Davies, Wheatcroft, Khlevnyuk seem more well known, tho Khlevnyuk seems to use 'case' when writing without a coauthor. fiveby(zero) 16:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

• Kremlin Affair and an additional redirect from 'Kremlin Case'. Seems to be most common in well-known authors when they actually use as a name by quoting, capitalizing 'Affair', etc. Don't think a year in the title is necessary. fiveby(zero) 17:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.