Talk:Kenneth Williams

Welsh

STATING THAT KENNETH WILLIAMS WAS "WELSH" IS WRONG. BEING BORN IN ENGLAND TO ENGLISH-BORN PARENTS DETERMINES THE FACT HE WAS ENGLISH. A FEW THROWAWAY COMMENTS IN CHAT SHOWS DOES NOT NEGATE THE FACTS. CALLING HIM "WELSH" ON WIKIPEDIA IS CLEARLY AN ATTEMPT BY WELSH NATIONALISTS TO SUBVERT THE TRUTH, AND IT IS DISGRACEFUL - IT'S THE KIND OF CHAUVINISM THAT THE MAN HIMSELF WOULD'VE UTTERLY DEPLORED. IN THE ARTICLE, KENNETH WILLIAMS SHOULD BE CALLED EITHER ENGLISH OR BRITISH, BUT NOT WELSH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.6.69.71 (talk) 17:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know both Williams' mother and father were Welsh. But he wasn't Welsh. There is a brief discussion thread about this in the archive here. The article already says: "Williams stated in his diaries that he believed he had Welsh ancestors because of his parents' surnames (both his parents were, in fact, born in Wales)." I think that's enough.Martinevans123 (talk) 14:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Says he is Welsh https://nation.cymru/culture/watch-carry-on-star-kenneth-williams-speaking-welsh-on-tv-show-2/ so I will change unless evidence in contrary can be shown. Titus Gold (talk) 15:04, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

A Welsh newspaper that does not cite its sources, and that points out he was born in London but claims he thought of himself as Welsh. This is not enough to settle the matter, so please await a consensus before re-asserting your edit.

Statements by Williams himself, or a biography would ideally establish the matter. But in any case, it is not exclusively about how he felt, but also about how sources treat him. For instance, if a biography stresses his Welshness, and quotes him as feeling he was Welsh, that would be good evidence. If a biography calls him English or British but then just includes mention of his love for Wales and his Welsh roots, then what we have is fine. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:12, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

The fact the Newspaper is a "Welsh newpaper" should be irrelevant, and the article does indeed link to footage of Williams himself stating he is Welsh before speaking the language. For me that's good enough, if someone of full Welsh parentage who happens to be born in London still describes themselves as Welsh in their early 60s I think we can safely call that person Welsh. Cymrogogoch (talk) 16:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

I had missed the quote from the footage from him, which is good evidence yes. Plenty of sources (newspapers and others) call him English - more than call him Welsh by about 25% from my first look, and British is less than half that number, but raw numbers are not much good. I note that someone may say one thing in one interview and another elsewhere, so I am sorry, I do not think this is enough to settle the matter. I note there is a biography of him based on his diaries, and it would be very interesting to know what the biographer says on the subject. I am leaning towards agreeing with you that Welsh is better, but to put the matter to rest, we need better sources. It does matter that we read sources critically and establish which audience they are writing for before trusting them as a single source. Per MOS:ETHNICITY, Decisions on which label to use should be determined through discussions and consensus. The label must not be changed arbitrarily. To come to a consensus, editors should consider how reliable sources refer to the subject, particularly UK reliable sources, and consider whether the subject has a preference on which nationality they identify by. So in summary, we have some good evidence that he referred to himself as Welsh - although we have not yet ascertained if he did so exclusively. We have a disparity of sources referring him to as English, Welsh and British (in that order). We have not yet had input from his biography. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

OK this is a good second reference to show that he did see himself as Welsh:

• Williams, Kenneth (1995). The Kenneth Williams letters. London : HarperCollins. ISBN 978-0-00-638092-4. Retrieved 23 February 2023. There was one moment when they talked of the endless mismanagement of the Whitehall government, and the his- torical sufferings of the Irish people, and this Pakenham made some crack about me having a nerve to show my English face in Dublin. I did the very slow take and riposted 'Wanna get your facts right dear, I'm Welsh.'{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: publisher location (link)

This biography calls him British:

• Butters, Wes (2008). Kenneth Williams unseen : the private notes, scripts and photographs. London : HarperCollins Entertainment. ISBN 978-0-00-728085-8. Retrieved 23 February 2023.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: publisher location (link)

In (Williams, 1995) above, he says on page 243: "Anyway, my mother was a Morgan, and my father was a Williams, so I suppose the ancestry can be said to be Welsh. But I don’t like nationalism. The very IDEA of devolution is mad. I don’t even like the sound of the Welsh language, and I think their insistence on retaining it is barmy. All those signs to be re-written! can you imagine?"

I note that he says "their insistence" so he was not apparently feeling very Welsh at that moment.

• Williams, Kenneth (1985). Just Williams : an autobiography. London : Dent. ISBN 978-0-460-04688-6. Retrieved 23 February 2023.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: publisher location (link)

Has: "I did it all wide-eyed with a Welsh accent [...] I was even more gratified when | read C. A. Lejeune’s notice for the picture: she referred to me as an ‘interesting new ‘‘Welshfind”’.’ That was true as far as ancestry went. My mother was a Morgan and my father a Williams."

Comment: in this anecdote he is only called Welsh because he played a part with a successful Welsh accent. However, he does again express his Welsh ancestry.

In the same source (Williams, 1985), he says: "Most of the people staying there were, like us, English and on holiday, " on page 195. He speaks a lot about the English. In another anecdote he refers to some rowdiness where someone says people like him and his friends make her ashamed to be English and he does not correct her. In the passage above in (Williams, 1995:243) he says he was born in London before mentioning his parents and Welsh ancestry. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Summary - My reading of Williams' own preference is as follows: He was not strongly nationalistic, and seemed to think of himself as both English and Welsh. However, there are two occasions where he clearly expresses his opinion that he sees himself as Welsh. Both of those were occasioned, but I found no equivalent cases where he insisted he was English. Biographers do not mention his nationality much at all, but when they mention it, they call him British. I would like more editors to discuss this, but my feeling at this point is that something nuanced in the lead would suffice, such as "Williams' parents were both Welsh, and despite being born in London, Williams saw himself as Welsh." I think the short summary should remain as British, per the biographies, unless we can show that sufficient WP:RS do otherwise. The (Williams, 1995:243) quote about not liking nationalism does seem to suggest, to my mind, that he would have objected to an attempt to make him wholly one and not the other. That is my view. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Some really good reserach by @Sirfurboy and I think the conclusion is fair. I would still advocate decribing him as Welsh (as he himself did in multiple sources) in the opening line, with discussion of his views and "Britishness" in the early life section, that would follow the consensus of similiar bio articles. Cymrogogoch (talk) 10:39, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, okay, I would be content with that. That is - Welsh in the lead, and an expansion as you describe in the early life section. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I have amended the opening line, added an InfoBox and expanded the early life section. While I have not discussed Williams' views on nationalism (I think we agree that there really isn't enough here to add anything worthwhile to the article) I felt that "English born Welsh actor" in the opening line would be a better summary than simply stating he was Welsh.

As you've said (and was mentioned in the archived debate) I think there is an element of Williams "playing up" his nationality for performative reasons. While this may well have extended to happily also describing himself as English, there is a paucity of good sources for this, while Williams' own writings (diaries and letters) and the video interviews all show Williams himself explicitly stating he is Welsh and even correcting those who refer to him as English. As such I am unsure what to add in support of his Britishness/Englishness.

As you rightly pointed out, we should be careful of singular sources and there seems to be only one instance of a young Williams accepting the term English (diaries), which goes against the rest of infomation in that source. While I don't think biographers or obituarians describing him as "British" really adds anything here, I do feel that the current edit could use something more about his "Englishness". But I don't see anything which would improve the article from the edit I have made today.

Happy to discuss further.

Cymrogogoch (talk) 15:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for this. Did we have an edit conflict though? Because I also updated to say he is Welsh etc. as discussed here and currently I only see my edit on the article, not yours. Updating the infobox is fine by me too. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:47, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Damn I think we did!

I've merged the two edits as best I can but I'm happy to give you final edit, have a look and take out/add anything and I'm sure I'll be happy. Thanks for your help with this. Cymrogogoch (talk) 19:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

All looks good to me, thanks (someone reverted the infobox so that will have to have a separate discussion). The one thing I am not sure about is the short description. I changed it from English to British, because British is what the biographies say. You have taken that to Welsh in line with the new lead. I am not strongly minded either way on that, but the short description doesn't have to follow the lead. I will leave it as it is for now, but if other editors want to say British in the short description, my !vote on that is neutral. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Apologies to 86.187.166.103, I wrote my last edsum without appreciating that was a different IP to the one who set it to English, and appreciate now you were reverting the other IP who had ignored the comment. But again, current consensus is that this should be Welsh. Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:02, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

What a very odd consensus. It's hard to refute he was English. It's easy to refute he was Welsh. It's not possible to refute he was British. It might be better to say he was British, but add a footnote about his own "belief" that he was Welsh. There is already quite a lot of detail about that belief in the article. 86.187.227.229 (talk) 20:53, 9 June 2023 (UTC) p.s. did you know that Haile Selassie was Jamaican.

If you think nationality is entirely to do with where you were born, perhaps. But Williams had the excellent claim to being Welsh that both his parents were Welsh, and as per the above, he asserted this. Normally I would agree that British would be better, but the curious thing is that Williams never referred to himself that way. British is one term he did not seem to use. We have very limited information from sources, per the source review above. But if you can find other sources that speak of him as British, or even where he speaks of himself as British, we could discuss further. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:15, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The British Comedy Guide says he was English, but IMDb goes with British as does gettyimages. He's also called British in Butters and Davies' 2010 book Kenneth Williams Unseen: The Private Notes, Scripts and Photographs. I also watched this 1983 episode of the BBC's Comic Roots. He doesn't say anything about being Welsh, or British, or English. But I think it should be added as an external link in the article. It's quite informative and, of course, very funny. 86.187.174.104 (talk) 11:50, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

You state that a link "doesn't say anything about being Welsh, or British, or English. But I think it should be added as an external link in the article." I am unsure what you are arguing for here or why this is relevant.

If you want to change Williams' nationality from Welsh to English or British I have to ask why? The current article goes into much (well sourced) detail on Williams' nationality as well as his birth and childhood in London. As discuss above, a number of secondary sources refer to Williams as English but these are none contemporary to Williams' life and up against his own numerous assertations that he or his family were Welsh.

As such it's really uncontroversial to state he is Welsh. Cymrogogoch (talk) 10:57, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

And just an additional comment on sourcing. IMDB is not a Reliable source per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Content is user generated. The others are not much better for our purposes. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:10, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I was half expecting that response. 86.187.230.39 (talk) 11:28, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Convenience break

Cymrogogoch, I'm not saying it's "controversial", I'm just saying it's debateable. This article is also "not contemporary to Williams' life." He loved to portray himself as eccentric and I see all of those numerous assertions as part of that portrayal. Yes, he could speak a bit of Welsh. Yes, he had Welsh parents. But he never lived in Wales. And he never normally sounded Welsh, in fact he usually sounded very English (often with a very affected "posh" English accent). Williams "being" Welsh might mean a lot more to UK editors here, but internationally I think most people who know anything of his career would think of him as being British, or even English. 86.187.230.39 (talk) 11:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree it is debatable. At this point we have clear evidence he called himself Welsh, and a lack of clear evidence that he or sources routinely call him British. I don't really object to a more nuanced lead that says something like "British, who asserted he was Welsh, being the son of Welsh parents," or similar. It would be good to get sources that tell us this. Preferably biographies. Per MOS:ETHNICITY, we can also look at how all the sources treat him in general (and especially UK sources), but the problem here is there is no unanimity on that. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:49, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I have looked into his Parents' Place of Birth. They were both born in London.

Charles G Williams details from Q1 1900 Birth Index for England & Wales -

Pancras, London, England

1b

83

The 1901 Census reveals his father Charles George Williams plus his parents Charles J Williams and Elizabeth Williams all to have been born in St Pancras, London.

Louisa Alexandra Morgan details from Q1 1902 Birth Index for England & Wales (note that births, deaths and marriages are indexed by the date of registration. You have 6 weeks to register a birth in England & Wales. So Q1 of 1902 will contain 1901 births.)

St Pancras, London, England

Volume:

1b

Page:

45

There are 5 Louisa Morgans in the 1911 Census in London. Without a birth certificate I cannot be certain which one is correct. All 5 of the potential Louisas have mothers born in England. 1 has a Welsh born father - but she can be discounted because she was born in 1900. (I have found her entry in the 1901 Census (taken in March/April 1901) - but it predates the birth of the Louisa we are interested in.)

I think it would be more accurate to describe him as English with a Welsh paternal grandfather. Kenneth Williams comments on his ancestry all appear to be assertions of what he believed. Did he ever actually verify it himself by a visit to the General Register Office?

It is a while since I watched the Kenneth Williams edition of Comedy Roots. Certainly the 1st part of it seems to very much depict a Londoner in London recalling London! The imitation of his mother's voice does not sound Welsh. I think if a viewing of the entire programme does not mention Wales - you have to ask if his Welsh identity was something he used when he was being contrary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmqt0eguBYs

Certainly watching some of the biographical programmes about him he was perfectly capable of being very contrary. WullieMoughan (talk) 11:30, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

I have now watched the programme Comedy Roots in full again. His Mother, father & one grandmother are all mimicked with a London accent. He refers to his love of German Romantic literature and music arising from a performance at County Hall in London. There is simply no mention of him being inspired by his Welsh ancestry at all. WullieMoughan (talk) 12:06, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, and this is a good bit of research for your first logged in edit. In terms of the description of Williams, what really matters is sources, and the genealogy is very interesting, as is what you say about mimicked accents, but constitutes original research. You might want to read about WP:OR, but the upshot is that we don't edit pages based on original research. Nevertheless what you have found is useful in furthering the debate. I think you may well be right about him asserting his Welsh identity to be contrary, yet he does it several times, and not for the same reason. One book about him calls him British, and that is all I could find from biographers. There was an anecdote (quoted above) where he seems to tacitly adopt an understanding he is English, but he does not state it. I would be content with a movement from the current status quo to a description that calls him British, but that he asserted his Welsh descent and called himself Welsh, or similar such edits. I do not see a strong case for calling him English based on the sources. My only concern is that British is not a term he ever seemed to use himself. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:50, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree with User:WullieMoughan about the Comedy Roots programme. Williams was a great mimic. But why would he present his mother, father and grandmother as strongly-accented Londoners, almost Mocknies, without a single trace of Welsh? On the other side of the coin, when would he really have had the opportunity or the need to argue he was English, or British? He was happy to tell people he was born in London and so, a bit like Wikipedia, go figure. 86.187.239.6 (talk) 21:03, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

The current source for the Welsh claim in this 1974 television interview with Mavis Nicholson. It seems we have no article for Thames TV's This Afternoon. At about 5:50 he confirms, somewhat indistinctly, that his parents were Welsh and that his "mother's people were all from Monmouthshire, Pontnewydd". That's it. Even if this claim were true (and reading all the above it seems a bit unlikely), this seems to be a rather thin source upon which to claim "he was Welsh"? Are there no other corroborating sources, at least for William's rather feeble claim? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 12:06, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

My researches of the 1901 Census for his father show 2 English born grandparents. In the 1911 Census the possible matches 5 from memory for his mother all have English born parents.

There is a 1968 interview when he was filming Carry On Up the Khyber (forgive spelling) in Wales. He does come across as liking to be the centre of attention.

I suspect on a basic “Passport Test” Kenneth Williams would not have been able to claim a Welsh Passport (if such a thing existed) as his ancestry is more remote than grandparents.

Without paying for certificates and digging into earlier Census (1891 and before) I suspect we are possibly looking at Great Grandparent(s) or Great Great Grandparent(s) of Kenneth Williams being Welsh.

I haven’t been able to establish a living memory link to Wales for Kenneth Williams. I suspect it maybe found. watching Comedy Roots is interesting - as I would have expected him to have gone back to his belief.

I have researched my own family tree and quickly smashed as false certain notions my late mother had grown up with about our roots! I’ve done the same for my partner. In short ancestors do not always come from where WE want/state them to be from.

However describing him as “Welsh” and not as “English, although he believed he had Welsh ancestry” seems like editing President Biden’s biography to call him simply Irish. WullieMoughan (talk) 14:02, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, of course. It seems Williams' mother had quite a "theatrical" side and she may well have invented all sorts of ancestry for her young impressionable son. I guess we will never know. I think Biden might actually have a stronger claim. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 14:17, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

this seems to be a rather thin source upon which to claim. Read up. The main source for his claim is:

• Williams, Kenneth (1995). The Kenneth Williams letters. London : HarperCollins. ISBN 978-0-00-638092-4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: publisher location (link).

There is a full sourcing discussion there. Please have a read of that. Again, editor's own ancestry research is original research. We can't use that. Take a look, instead, at what the published sources say. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:25, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

If that's the main source, maybe it should be added right next to the claim in the article? I guess the interview video does support the latter part of the claim. Thanks. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 15:30, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, good suggestion. I have added an earlier in text citation. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:05, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Is that the only page? I can see page 108, but the preceding pages are not visible to me in that view. I see you have added a quote above which explains that the context was him being accused of "having a nerve to show my English face in Dublin." So he was essentially trying to extricate himself from an embarrassing situation. And then he launches off into a fine little piece of melodramatic theatrical schtick, to get some more laughs. He was totally playing to the gallery here? Are there any instances of him saying he was Welsh in a totally straight and serious way (although the boundaries between fact and fiction were always intentionally "a bit blurred" with Williams, I think)? 86.187.172.138 (talk) 16:57, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see how what's on page 108 of The Letters (1994) supports a claim that "Both of Williams' parents were from Wales." It supports a claim that in October 1969 Williams said he was Welsh, in a televised Dublin chat show, when he was accused of being English, with that announcement being met with "the biggest laugh of the programme." 205.239.40.3 (talk) 10:07, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I think to call him just "a Welsh actor" is extremely misleading. His whole public persona was as a Londoner through and through. The cultural context of all his work was, without a doubt, the UK as a whole. We should describe him as British or, if we must, "British with Welsh antecedents" or words to that effect. Alarics (talk) 12:04, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I think it should be ‘English of Welsh parentage’ or even ‘Londoner of Welsh parentage’ he was only Welsh when it was convenient to an argument. He wouldn’t have called himself British because not many people used that description about themselves, it’s only over the last 30 years that has been used for anything but passports.To state that he was Welsh is completely misleading and is likely to make the reader call into question the verity of the whole article. Botticellireject (talk) 15:14, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

These latest two comments do tend to show the problem. In general I would tend to prefer "British" where the nationality is not clear, but as per Botticellireject, he didn't seem to call himself British. I disagree a little that it is only in the last 30 years people used the term British of themselves, but for Williams, at least, there is no evidence he would have described himself thus. The only thing he called himself was Welsh, but those mentions were indeed occasioned. We might have solved it with what sources call him, but there is no unanimity on that either. Biographers tend to avoid calling him any nationality, perhaps aware that it is a thorny issue. I am not opposed to "Londoner of Welsh parentage" (or "born in London to Welsh parents"), as we have, in the article, evidence that he called himself Welsh, but was born and raised in London. I am not convinced it is the best summary of the main text, but I think it is a fair one. I am not happy with "English of Welsh parentage" because he explicitly calls himself Welsh on more than one occasion, and does not explicitly call himself English. I would also be happy with a fudge per what his biographers do, and simply not mention the nationality in the lead, and leave it to the fuller text in the main to make it clear. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:05, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello - I’m the author of The Kenneth Williams Companion and The Kenneth Williams Scrapbook. Kenneth was not Welsh and neither were his parents - please see the family tree as presented in The Kenneth Williams Scrapbook. Any Welsh heritage do not appear until great grandparents or further. Whilst referred to in chat shows for effect, the reference of Welsh is incorrect. Thank you, Adam Endacott 95.150.152.87 (talk) 18:19, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Please provide the sources regarding his parents not being Welsh. Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

FindMyPast.com is the main source which is the standard used for genealogy. Both Louisa Alexandra (nee Morgan) born 20/12/1901 and Charles George Williams born 24/12/1899 were both born in London. The Morgan’s were from Marylebone and the Williams from Cheltenham in Gloucestershire via Middlesex. This is published on page xii in The Kenneth Williams Scrapbook, Fantom Publishing, 2021. I have also spoken with a 2nd cousin for my research and accessed the Kenneth Williams Archive at the British Library. 95.150.152.87 (talk) 18:35, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

FindMyPast is a primary source (or rather, the substantive information on it is) and a bit tricky. I have just had a quick look on ancestry, but, for instance, I find a Charles George Williams on almost that date in Wandsworth. I expect if I spend more time with it, I may well be able to verify what you say, but what we need here are secondary sources. To that end, this does look like a suitable secondary source. I have confirmed it is published by Fantom. I have no access to it. Assuming it does indeed verify this information, we certainly need to update the text that reads "Both of Williams' parents were from Wales." That is clearly in error, and I do not see it verified in the citations given. What does that book say about Williams' nationality though? Because other biographers do not spend much time on it, although Butters calls him British. From Williams' own point of view, the only time we see him expressing nationality is when he claims to be Welsh, but, as per the sources I found, there are a couple of passages where he seems to implicitly think of himself as English. As I think I have mentioned before, I would prefer British as a suitable catch all, but we seem to be scuppered by this being the one thing Williams never mentions. If, however, biographies are calling him British, that might be the best solution. It just needs the sources to back it up. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you - in my books the Scrapbook and The Kenneth Williams Companion refer to him as a British comedy actor. In my talks and interviews, I refer to him as a British actor. Difficult to share my research here unless we meet but this information has been verified by his remaining family. As The KW Companion is a reference work on his complete, there are direct quotes and detail on all his appearances that exist as to what he states about his heritage. The Companion can be used as a reference source also - The Kenneth Williams Companion, Fantom Publishing 2015 and updated and expanded paperback, 2023. Thank you for your time in correcting this - Adam Endacott, author and Kenneth Williams expert 95.150.152.87 (talk) 19:27, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Would you be able to share a paragraph and page number where he is referred to as a British actor? I'll be interested in other editor opinions too. Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:33, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

The Kenneth Williams Companion, Second Edition by Adam Endacott, Fantom Publishing, 2023 - page xiv, first paragraph - Foreword by Michael Whittaker - ‘… Only England could have produced such an exotic, talented and intense personality…’

Page 458 - Parkinson - 02/12/1972 -‘… introduced as one of Britain’s funniest comic actors…’

Page 584 - Joan Rivers: Can We Talk? - 24/03/1986 ‘… one of Britain’s most popular comedy actors…’

The Kenneth Williams Scrapbook by Adam Endacott, 2021, Fantom Publishing

Pages xii-xiii - Kenneth’s family tree

Page 1 - copy of Kenneth’s entry of birth in Islington, in the sub-district of Barnsbury in the county of London

Page 122 - Afterword by Bill Holland, first paragraph, ‘…yet he rests in the mind’s eye of every Briton worthy of the name…’

Kenneth Williams - A Biography, Michael Freedland, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1990

Page xiii, second paragraph, ‘… In his native Britain…’

I trust there is something suitable there - with thanks, Adam 95.150.152.87 (talk) 20:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Adam. It's unfortunate that your The Kenneth Williams Companion seems to be unavailable/searchable in preview form online. All these references to "Britain" and "British" wouldn't necessarily negate the claim that he was Welsh, of course. But it's beginning to become obvious that there are very few clear and unambiguous sources for that claim. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks from me too. I expect a consensus for some edits should start to emerge soon. Of course, the lack of online copy is no bar to the work being used as a source. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, of course, the book is a perfectly reliable source here. Especially when it is being quoted by its author! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I did some basic research and quickly found that Kenneth Williams 2 parents were English born. I even found a recording of a biographical programme - where very clearly he mocks his aunt and grandparents as having English accents.

Personally, I am coming to the view that the Welsh claims may reflect more the hopes of the person writing this article - than facts. 2.26.80.210 (talk) 20:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I am happy to provide a PDF version of The KW Companion and The KW Scrapbook if that helps with the case? (Though not for wider circulation). Michael Freedland's book from 1990 was in collaboration with Louisa and Patricia Williams (Kenneth's mother and sister). 95.150.152.87 (talk) 21:56, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again

Thank you for making the correction.

Can this sentence be amended also please to reflect our previous chat?

'Both of Williams' parents were from Wales...'

This is not correct - they were both born and raised in London. May I suggest that it reads:

'Both of Williams' parents were born in London with a Welsh heritage from several generations back...'

This can be referenced back to the family tree as published in my book, The Kenneth Williams Scrapbook, Fantom Publishing.

Many thanks

Adam Endacott 95.150.152.87 (talk) 10:21, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and made that change. Perhaps an explicit reference to The Kenneth Williams Scrapbook is also needed there to support that claim. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much - greatly appreciated and is now factually correct. Should I add the reference or is this something you do? Adam 95.150.152.87 (talk) 12:37, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure someone could manage that. Could you possibly provide the relent page numbers (if there are any)? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:59, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Super - thank you very much.

Page xii in The Kenneth Williams Scrapbook by Adam Endacott, Fantom Publishing, 2021 95.150.152.87 (talk) 13:25, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Adam, for your involvement in this discussion, which has been invaluable. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Could of sworn Kenneth Williams died in 2005!

It mislists(?) his death as being in the year of 1988! 2A00:23C7:2B13:9001:C599:16AB:8915:7F65 (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

All of the references including this one and the many obits (see this example) confirm April 1988. Perhaops you are thinking of a different Kenneth Williams. MarnetteD|Talk 03:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

This article in The Independent was published in 2005. Perhaps you were thinking of that? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 12:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. Oh! Sheeny! What's occurin'? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:07, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Wesleyan/Methodist

It's the same thing. Jack Upland (talk) 03:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not. There are Calvinistic methodists too. Those who followed Whitefield et al. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Anti-Welsh

Williams made disparaging remarks about Welsh people, the Welsh language and Welsh nationalism. This should be mentioned in the article. 2A00:23C5:C419:D301:8:F6D:B714:7605 (talk) 11:12, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

He also occasionally described himself as Welsh, or at least of Welsh heritage? Perhaps you have some examples of those remarks, from WP:RS sources? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:27, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

He made disparaging remarks about Welsh language activism, but not about the Welsh people. I thought we had a reference in there somewhere to the language remarks, but they are not particularly relevant to anything - it was a one off occasion. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:36, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Ah, here it is, further up the talk page. I quote myself:

In (Williams, 1995) above, he says on page 243: "Anyway, my mother was a Morgan, and my father was a Williams, so I suppose the ancestry can be said to be Welsh. But I don’t like nationalism. The very IDEA of devolution is mad. I don’t even like the sound of the Welsh language, and I think their insistence on retaining it is barmy. All those signs to be re-written! can you imagine?"

• Williams, Kenneth (1995). The Kenneth Williams letters. London : HarperCollins. ISBN 978-0-00-638092-4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: publisher location (link).

Cheers. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:44, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Many thanks from reminding us. I'm not sure the IP will be able to provide any more, but we'll see. Perhaps that's what they were thinking of. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:57, 20 April 2025 (UTC)