Talk:Kalash people

Cite errors

@Isaidnoway: yes, I noticed; I'll fix them. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Sub-header

@Joshua Jonathan: I find the header "Indigenous or West-Eurasian" unnecessary. Neither Kalash are fully/mostly west Eurasian nor they are "indigenous" (don't know what it's supposed to mean). The only thing notable is the Macedonian/Alexander/Greek descent part, which is covered and should have a sub-header. PA - It is obvious that they are a SWAT/Gandhara derived population like a lot of other groups from that region. The apparent distinctness is due to isolation and drift. Ping @Austronesier:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: I prefer a subheader, to have a better overview. But another one, in line with your explanation, is perfectly fine. The phrase "indigenous" gave me the impression that there are two views, "indigenous" and something related to the Indo-Aryans. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:04, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk @PadFoot2008 Looks like the entire revamp was primarily done to remove 'Ancient Hinduism' and replace it with 'Vedic religion' under the guise of depiping. Should only report whats noted in sources not what we think is correct or how it should be. Look out for other pages. 2409:4089:AD98:4C14:C590:F56C:544E:CBEE (talk) 15:30, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

"Ancient Hinduism"

@PadFoot2008: here you again: edit-warring on the miplaced phrase "ancient Hinduism." West's a generic encyclopedia; she's not a specilized author. Witzel, on the other hand, is a top-authority, and doesn't use the phrase "ancient Hinduism" at all. Worse, he says (italics Witzel) "an ancient, common substrate (TUITE 2000, cf. BENGTSON 1999, 2001, 2002). These must be separated from what may appear to be Vedic." Ergo, he isn't even sure those elements are Vedic. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:26, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

West is still a reliable source. You would need consensus for your changes. I'm open to discussing here. You should too before making changes of your own mind. PadFoot (talk) 17:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

• Barbara West (2010), Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania, Infobase Publishing, p.367: "Their religion is a form of Hinduism [...] the religion of the Kalasha is much more closely aligned to the Hinduism of their Indian neighbours that to the religion of Alexander the Great and his armies." West doesn't even us the term "ancient Hinduism." - Infobase Publishing is an educational publisher; Barbara West has a PhD, but is, of course, not comparable to Michael Witzel;
• Witzel, Michael (2004). "Kalash Religion (extract from 'The Ṛgvedic Religious System and its Central Asian and Hindukush Antecedents')" (PDF). In A. Griffiths; J. E. M. Houben (eds.). The Vedas: Texts, Language and Ritual. Groningen: Forsten. pp. 581–636. - Michael Witzel is an aboslute authority on the Vedic religion, who also doesn't use the phrase "ancient Hinduism" here; he does mention "Hindukush ritual has many IIr. and IA features, too", though;
• Searle and Perlton refer to animism and ancestor worship.

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:03, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

She does use the term "Hinduism". There is also a quote still there in the body that uses the term. PadFoot (talk) 18:07, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, so a better phrasing may be "with Vedic or Hindu elements." See also Witzel p.3: "A few key features that highlight the position of Hindukush religion in between the IIr., BMAC and Vedic religions." IIR is Indo-Iranian. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:09, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008@Fylindfotberserk@Redtigerxyz @TrangaBellam @Kautilya3 "No one uses the term 'historical Vedic religion' either. Additionally, the user Joshua has a history of manipulating sources, cherry-picking quotations, and neglecting other sources that present different viewpoints. The user frequently references Witzel.Ill give you another example of cherrypicking. Witzel (1995) mentions the Vedic period starting from 1500 BC, but Witzel (1997) suggests it might be from 1900 BC, and Thomas Oberlies 1998 states atleast 1700 BC. However, this user chooses to completely ignore these variations and consistently promotes 1500 BC. Beyond contemporary Hinduism, this user also appears intent on pushing the dates of the Vedic religion as close to the 1st century as possible. Their bias isn't limited to South Asian religion; they also target most South Asian genetics pages. There is undoubtedly a strong ideological bias at play here. 2409:4089:AD98:4C14:35D5:1291:8259:6FEB (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, an IP... An even better phrasing may be: "With Vedic-like or Hindu elements." See also Witzel p.3: "A few key features that highlight the position of Hindukush religion in between the IIr., BMAC and Vedic religions." IIR is Indo-Iranian; Witzsel seems to argue that the Kalash and Vedic religion resemble each other, because they both are rooted in the same Indo-Iranian/Indo-Aryan religious tradition.
Richard Strand does indeed use the phrase "ancient Hinduism":

Before their conversion to Islâm the Nuristânis practised a form of ancient Hinduism, infused with accretions developed locally. They acknowledged a number of human-like deities who lived in the unseen Deity World (Kâmviri d'e lu; cf. Sanskrit deva lok'a-)."

References

Unclear what he's referring to here; ancient Vedic religion, or an early form of Hinduism? Anyway, "ancient Vedic religion" is indeed less appropriate, just like "ancient Hinduism"; I propose to use "With Vedic-like or Hindu elements." For the subheader, we could use "Indo-Aryan religion." And add Strand's quote to the note, of course. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:17, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Witzel compared elements of Kalasha religion to Nepalese traditions as well. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Here's some more from Witzel:

A few key features that highlight the position of Hindukush religion in between the IIr., BMAC and Vedic religions will be summarized and discussed in some detail, as they by and large even now remain unknown to Vedic specialists, in spite of BUDDRUSS 1960 and the selective summary "d'un domaine mal connu des indianistes" by FUSSMAN (1977: 21-35), who, even with an "esprit hypercritique comme le nôtre" (1977: 27), overstresses (post-Vedic) Indian influences (1977: 69; for a balanced evaluation of the linguistic features, see now DEGENER 2002). However, both Hindukush and Vedic mythology, ritual, and festivals, in spite of many layers of developments and mutual influences, tend to explain each other very effectively; cf. the similar case of Nepal (Witzel 1997c: 520-32).

So, according to Witzel, pre-Islamic Hindukush religion contains pre-Vedic elements, is to be situated "in between the IIr., BMAC and Vedic religions," and is closely related to the (ancien5) Vedic religion. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

The current references, including those authored by scholars James Minahan and Barbara West, do indeed mention 'Ancient Hinduism' or a 'form of Hinduism'. It should therefore be included and 'Vedic religion' can be included along with 'Ancient Hinduism' if Joshua Jonathan can provide a source using that term. Given that other tertiary sources used to provide an overview on the Kalash people mention the term, we at Wikipedia should reflect that. These are high grade texts that others use to learn about ethnic groups. The word 'animism' is non-specific and does not tell us much and so that should be removed. Orientls (talk) 02:17, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Did you really read my comments above? I suggested "Vedic-like," not "Vedic." The term animism is used by multiple sources; it tells us more than "ancient Hinduism," which is imprecise and used only in generic encyclopedias, whereas Witzel, an absolute authority, suggests that the Kalash-religion contains elements which may (italics Witzel) seem Vedic, but are better treated as elements of ancient Indo-Iranian religion, a substrate shared with the Vedic religion (which was the Indo-Aryan religion of a subset of the Indo-Aryans entering South Asia, not of all Indo-Aryans). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Heike Ruhland (2019), Peacebuilding in Pakistan: A Study on the Religious Minorities and Initiatives for Interfaith Harmony, Waxmann Verlag, p.107: "Their traditional shamanic religion is probably rooted in Indo-Iranian, pre-Zoroastrian Vedic traditions."
• A.G. Vinogradov, S.V. Zharnikova, Indo-European Ornamental Complexes and their Analogies in the Cultures of Eurasia, p.182: "... the pagan Kafir pantheon, which has preserved the relics of the most ancient Indo-Iranian mythological concepts"

So, "Vedic-like" should be "Indo-Iranian (Vedic- or Hindu-like) religion." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Dardic

@Joshua Jonathan: The linguistic group 'Dardic' has been recently questioned by linguists, which you have added today. Excerpt from Indo-Aryan languages#Groups - The Dardic group as a genetic grouping (rather than areal) has been scrutinised and questioned to a degree by recent scholarship: Southworth, for example, says "the viability of Dardic as a genuine subgroup of Indo-Aryan is doubtful" and "the similarities among [Dardic languages] may result from subsequent convergence". Besides, we have, for example - The Dogras or Dogra people, are an Indo-Aryan ethno-linguistic.. rather than The Dogras or Dogra people, are an Indo-Aryan Western Pahari ethno-linguistic... - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I'll remove it. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Mara

As an aside: the article has two alinea's on male purity and female unpurity: "There is a special role [...] impurity occurs." Compare Buddhism and Mara, temptation, 'death', and celibate life, aiming for 'the deathless'. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Islam

Zaheer-ud-din: "With the strengthen of Muslim rule in Chitral in 14th century C. E. most of the Kalash embraced Islam gradually, except a small number of them who up-hold their religion and customs." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:22, 15 March 2025 (UTC)
And "ancient Indo-Iranian (Vedic- or Hindu-like) religion" was changed to "Vedic Hinduism," without any explanation. This has been discussed before; "Vedic Hinduism" is a misnomer. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:42, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Origins

So, you have one paragraph that says: "the Kalash population is composed of maternal western Eurasian lineages (as the associated lineages are rare or absent in the surrounding populations). The authors concluded that a western Eurasian maternal origin for the Kalash is likely."

Then, only two paragraphs later, it says: "The study also showed the Kalash to be a separated group, having no membership within European populations."

So, do they or do they not have a lot of European ancestry? In some of the photos of blue eyed blondes, some of them sure look like they'd fit right in in western Europe! 2600:1700:BC01:9B0:861:96C2:590C:3617 (talk) 21:24, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

Possessing mtDNA categorised as 'west Eurasian' ≠ European ancestry. The gene associated with blond hair originated among a group of ancient Siberians which entered continental Europe as part of later migrations. The Kalash apparently has loads of such ancestry, also note population drift, selection and small sample size. By the way, this is getting forumy, typically not entertained in Wikipedia per WP:TALK#USE - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:39, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

Kalash traditions

@Joshua Jonathan: Why are you undoing edits the source clearly states they where from Nuristan and migrated to Chitral but your claiming its a tradition or a folklore and thats not true. What is your argument regarding this?? Wikipedian reader 1234567 (talk) 12:57, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

Because you changed

According one Kalash-tradition, their ancestors migrated to Chitral Valley from the Waigal Valley of Nuristan Province, Afghanistan, or a location further south, called "Tsiyam" in their folk songs and epics, and possibly located near Jalalabad and Lughman in Afghanistan. Another tradition claims descent from the armies of Alexander who were left behind from his armed campaign, though no evidence exists for him to have passed the area.

into

The Kalash originally were living in the regions of Nuristan province, their ancestors migrated to Chitral Valley from the Waigal Valley of Nuristan Province, Afghanistan, or a location further south, called "Tsiyam" in their folk songs and epics, and possibly located near Jalalabad and Laghman Province in Afghanistan. Another tradition claims descent from the armies of Alexander who were left behind from his armed campaign, though no evidence exists for him to have passed the area they live in today.

References

which is problematic for several reasons:

• If you had paid attention, you would have noticed that this alinea mentions two traditions, not one;
• If the second tradition is correct, there is no need to mention "they live in today," as this suggests that they migrated to this area before Alexander's conquests. That seems unlikely, goiven Dani's comment: "It seems that the Kalasha speaking people were expelled from this territory by Nuristani tribes some centuries ago.";
• Nuristan is already mentioned in that sentence; no need to mention it twice.

Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:24, 19 April 2025 (UTC) Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:24, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

No but Dani has only stated that they where from Nuristan originally but his statement doesn't sound like its just a guess and it may be true or not true.

I know that being descents of Alexander's soldiers is just a folklore and not true that I stated it as a tradition. Wikipedian reader 1234567 (talk) 18:33, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

Dani is not the only source. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:02, 19 April 2025 (UTC)