Talk:Kalaripayattu

Edgar Thurston-quote

Part I

@Avf12e I have noted that recently you added that kalari is based on hinduism into the lead without a proof , now you are adding something related to urumi into the history section (to prove your point again) when the source you provided only mentions about a community/caste and says nothing that it is related to kalari or it is for kalari, it is you assumption ,it is based on the dressing style. Kindly discuss here before making such changes as the it is a very old artform which have influenced so many cultures . Bilgiljilll (talk) 03:14, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Avf12e, you re-inserted diff the Edgar Thurston-quote with the explanation

'Urumi' weapon is unique to kalari, and it's construction requires fine knowledge metallurgy. No where else we can find this flexible sword worn around waist and is a character of this period. Something like samurai sword

despite my explanation diff

WP:UNDUE; no mention of Kalaripayattu; and Raj-era source, which are usually rejected at Wikipedia

Undue is cooroborated by Bilgiljilll; what does this info have to with kalari? And it's a Raj-era source from 1909; Rah-era sources are generally not considered WP:RS. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

 Courtesy link: WP:RAJ

Though I feel it is not fair to completely reject all the raj era sources as many of them which existed before and after are also being rejected unless it is cited in a scholarly article (Peer reviewed) but this is what Wikipedia follows here Avf12e. Jeraxmoira (talk) 06:52, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The quote is used in this all India magazine , an article on kalripayattu.

The reason people are using this quote as a reference is because the weopon 'Urumi' is uniquely to Kalari and people can't simple use it like a knife or sword.

This was a culture during medieval period in kerala that Kalari warriors used to tie this flexible sword around their waist and unfasten the sword when an enemy shows up. This is not continued after the medieval period.

This is something unique to kalari and no where in the world you can see this weapon and this mode of attacking style. Though thurson has not mentioned explicitly the word kalari, but the 'flexible sword' Urumi and it's attacking style is evident and belongs to kalaripayattu, that's why people has used his reference in article like these.

1. We cannot completely reject this quote citing this is raj era source

2. The relation with the Kalaripayattu is evident and been used by authors in other kalaripayattu articles like these Afv12e (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

As I have mentioned previously, only Peer reviewed scholarly articles will be considered as reliable sources on this topic. Not magazines. You can try searching on Google Scholar, JSTOR or some other similar platform! Cheers. Jeraxmoira (talk) 20:55, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you!

I will search for it. My concern is that Peer reviewed articles are very minimal related in kalaripayattu in total, not much peer reviewed scholarly articles are available on kalarippayattu topic. Afv12e (talk) 21:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Also the 'rejection of Raj Era sources' in Wikipedia is primarily concerned with Castes and communities articles in India.

Please enlighten me if I'm wrong. Afv12e (talk) 21:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Raj Era source are confined to castes and communities in wikipedia.

We are just here talking about a weapon, and it's attacking style. If possible, we can omit the name of the community name at the start.

It won't harm in using the quote of an attacking style of a kalari weapon. Afv12e (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

You cannot omit part of a source as you like. See WP:FRUIT. If you can frame the sentence as Sitush did in the last line of the discussion you linked, it may be fine. Again, that can also be challenged by other editors. Jeraxmoira (talk) 04:33, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Part II

yes, peer reviewed scholarly articles on kalaripayattu does mention this . Restored back. Afv12e (talk) 10:29, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Afv12e, Firstly, how did you come across the article that you cited above? Why does the article have 17-November-2023 as the published date? Are you the author Manohara Krishnan that is mentioned in the article?

W.r.t the restore that you did, you did not cite the source that you mentioned here, so I am reverting it again. Do not proceed to restore without consensus, Thanks. Jeraxmoira (talk) 10:48, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I was searching for the articles related to this for the past days. No I'm not the aithor.

I have cited in the edit the source I mentioned here. You can recheck. Afv12e (talk) 11:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

My bad, yes you have cited it. But then again, there is no way you found that article by searching as it not indexed in google or anywhere yet. Jeraxmoira (talk) 11:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I was searching on journals pages with keyword Kalari thurson urumi , was extensively searchtfor these past days in major journal pages and going through it. Afv12e (talk) 11:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

As I said, this looks orchestrated. Even when you search for the word 'Kalari', only that particular article pops up . I would suggest you to find some other reliable sources and then restore the content. Otherwise, take this to WP:3O or WP:DRN Jeraxmoira (talk) 11:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I have gone to the site and searched for the keyword 'kalari' and this article pops in because this is published yesterday.

I think under this one there in only one article.

I have been searching for scholary sites to find peer reviewed papers for the source.

This is a disgrace that you are now telling just because the paper is published yesterday, it is fabricated ! Afv12e (talk) 15:43, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a peer reviewed scholary article on Kalaripayattu and other source ( a news source) also took this source on usage of Urumi weapon.

As from our discussion above these were the conditions to add it back.

I think this well sufficient to add that back to the article. Afv12e (talk) 15:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Your quote can be summarized to "Weapons used in Kalari include the Urumi, a flexible, whip-like sword made of thin pliable steel." Your "peer reviewed source," Manohara Krishnan (2023), Kalarippayattu: The Ancient Martial Art of Kerala and its Arsenal, International Journal of Social Science and Humanities Research, Vol. 11, Issue 4, October 2023 - December 2023, looks odd; see here and here for a warning signal. Anyway, your source is superficial; wonder what search-string for ChatGPT would give such an article... Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 20:12, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

To note, there is something here and here with a very similar name, Kalarippayattu: The Ancient Martial Art of Kerala and this article Afv12e cited has "... and its Arsenal" added to it. Looks like it was exclusively created for restoring content related to Urumi. The abstract of that article has 50-65% AI generated content warnings when run on multiple AI generated content detectors. Jeraxmoira (talk) 21:13, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

3O

Can whoever made the WP:3O request please very briefly summarize which source exactly is contested to support which article content and why it is contested? Sandstein 10:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:3O request was made by Afv12e . Source in question - . Contested because it was published a week after this article was getting attention. Journal is published in an unreliable/ unmoderated platform.

There is also a similar journal which does not have the "and its Arsenal" added to it on the title. The source in question also flags for AI generated content warnings. Jeraxmoira (talk) 10:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

OK, and which article content exactly is to be sourced to this publication? Sandstein 19:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Afv12e tried to add . Jeraxmoira (talk) 15:19, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Kalaripayattu - Age

The word 'Kalari' (களரி) for combat ground is found Akam 54th verse in Sangam verses, where the poem is describing a combat like duals , where warriors come and fight:

முது மரத்த முரண் களரி(This is the word 'Kalari),

வரி மணல் அகன் திட்டை, 60

இருங்கிளை இனன் ஒக்கல்

கருந்தொழில் கலி மாக்கள்,

கடல் இறவின் சூடு தின்றும்,

வயல் ஆமைப் புழுக்கு உண்டும்,

வறள் அடும்பின் மலர் மலைந்தும், 65

புனல் ஆம்பல் பூச் சூடியும்,

நீல் நிற விசும்பின் வலன் ஏர்பு திரிதரும்,

நாள்மீன் விராய கோள்மீன் போல,

மலர்தலை மன்றத்துப் பலருடன் குழீஇக்,

கையினும் கலத்தினும் மெய்யுறத் தீண்டிப், 70

பெருஞ்சினத்தான் புறக்கொடாஅது,

இருஞ்செருவின் இகல் மொய்ம்பினோர்,

கல் எறியும் கவண் வெரீஇப்

புள் இரியும் புகர்ப் போந்தை; (59-74)

Martial Art Field

Shifting sands have spread in wide

striped patterns and old trees

provide shade in an arena where

strong men show off their strengths.

They gather with their many relatives

and hordes of people from their clan.

Warriors eat roasted shrimp and boiled

field tortoises. They wear adumpu flowers

that grow in dry sand, along with white

waterlilies that bloom in ponds.

The crowds milling around in the vast

common grounds are like stars that

rise up with strength and mingle with

planets in the blue sky. Men with great

body strength, filled with rage, hit body

against body and fight with hands and

weapons without backing off.

Fearing the stones from the slingshots of

strong men, birds flee, abandoning the

palmyra trees with spots.

Notes: வலன் (67) – பொ. வே. சோமசுந்தரனார் உரை, நெடுநல்வாடை (1) – வலப் பக்கம், வலன் ஏர்பு – அகநானூறு 43, 84, 188, 278, 298, 328, நற்றிணை 37, 264, 328, குறுந்தொகை 237, ஐங்குறுநூறு 469, பதிற்றுப்பத்து 24, 31, நெடுநல்வாடை 1, பட்டினப்பாலை 67, முல்லைப்பாட்டு 4, திருமுருகாற்றுப்படை 1, மதுரைக்காஞ்சி 5 – வல மாதிரத்தான் வளி கொட்ப. கல் எறியும் கவண் வெரீஇ (73) – பொ. வே. சோமசுந்தரனார் உரை – பனை மரத்து உச்சியில் இலக்கு வைத்து எறிதலின் ஆண்டு வாழும் பறவைகள் ஓடின என்க. இங்கனம் இலக்குக் கொண்டு கல்லால் எறிதல் உண்மையால் ஆண்டு நிற்கும் பனைகள் கல்லேற்றின் வடுவுடையன என்பார், புகார்ப் போந்தை என்றார். Meanings: முது மரத்த – with old trees, முரண் களரி – arena where brave men show off their strength, வரி மணல் – sand ripples, stripes of sand, அகன் திட்டை- wide mounds, இருங்கிளை – big group of relatives, இனன் ஒக்கல் – clan people, related people (இனன் – இனம் என்பதன் போலி), கருந்தொழில் – war business, harsh business, கலி மாக்கள் – arrogant warriors, proud warriors, கடல் இறவின் – ocean shrimp’s, சூடு தின்றும் – roasted the flesh and ate, வயல் ஆமை – field tortoises, புழுக்கு உண்டும் – boiled and ate, வறள் அடும்பின் – adumpu flowers in dry sand, Ipomoea pes caprae, மலர் மலைந்தும் – adorned with flowers, புனல் ஆம்பல் – white water lilies growing in water, பூச்சூடியும் – wearing flowers, நீல் நிற விசும்பின் – in the blue sky (நீல் – கடைக்குறை, poetical license which consists in the shortening of a word by elision of one or more letters in the end), வலன் ஏர்பு – climb on the right side, climb with strength, திரிதரும் – roaming, நாள்மீன் விராய – with the stars, with the sun, கோள்மீன் போல – like the planets, மலர்தலை மன்றத்து – in the vast common grounds, பலருடன் குழீஇ – joining together with many others (குழீஇ – அளபெடை), கையினும் – with their hands, கலத்தினும் – with their weapons, மெய் உறத் தீண்டி – hitting body against body, பெருஞ்சினத்தால் – with great anger, புறக்கொடாஅது – not showing their backs and leaving (அளபெடை), இருஞ்செருவின் – in huge battles, இகல் – enmity, மொய்ம்பினோர் – men with strong bodies, கல் எறியும் கவண் வெரீஇ – fearing the stones shot by slingshots (வெரீஇ – அளபெடை, வெருவி என்ற வினையெச்சம் திரிந்து அளபெடுத்தது), புள் – birds, இரியும் – move away, flee, புகர்ப் போந்தை – palmyra palms with spots

Considering

Most of the Akananuru was likely composed sometime between the 2nd and 5th century CE

Also Word Kalari used here with the scenario of martial arts fighting between two, The martial arts should be old as such and in the lead it says Kalari originated in 1200 ce, which much recent. We have the quote of Duarte Barossa died at 1521 talking on Kalari training and can't image that kalari developed just 300 years back of that.

Currently in Malayalam word 'Kalari' is used for both Kalaripayattu martial arts and for the place where kalaripayattu martial arts being taught. So Akam verse which is of 300ce - 600 ce should be talking about either of the two, in conjunction the above dual (Angam mentioned in the article) scene.

Just a google results, and can be seen in many articles:

The word kalari appears in the Puram (verses 225, 237, 245, 356) and Akam (verses 34, 231, 293) to describe both a battlefield and combat arena. The word kalari tatt denoted a martial feat, while kalari kozhai meant a coward in war

So the age of Kalaripayattu in the lead should consider to be changed from 1200 ce to maybe Sangam era of akam to 300ce - 500ce

Afv12e (talk) 04:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

See WP:OR and WP:DONTGETIT. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Restoring sourced content

I recently expanded the article with sourced content supported by reliable citations.These edits were reverted If any parts need modification please discuss it here and give genuine citations and source so we can reach consensus. Unsourced removals may conflict with Wikipedia's verifiability and neutrality policy. Happy to discuss further- thank you. Malabar muse (talk) 03:56, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2026

Revert edit by sockpuppet User:Orunaalkallan, which disregarded earlier discussion and WP:HISTRS. Phillip B. Zarrilli's thesis is the only scholarly source available and determines the earliest known date using peer-reviewed methodologies. Other sources are circular references that claim the extraordinary date of 300 BCE (some even 3000 BCE) without providing their source or explaining how they come up with that date. ~2026-11071-30 (talk) 07:39, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

 Done –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:48, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

Agari was not the first instance of a character of Indian origin in manga

This claim that under the pop culture section that Ravi is the first character of Indian origin introduced in a Japanese manga seems ludicrous, off the top of my head Buddha from Saint Young Men (started in 2006) predates this by more than a decade. Also I am unable to find any secondary source confirming that "Agari" actually was published.Spellsstick (talk) 04:27, 15 March 2026 (UTC)