Talk:Kadayif

Pastry dough?

@M.Bitton: The usual meaning of the expression pastry dough is the dough used to make the pastry. The usual meaning of confection is a sweet food (finished product). The only source (Ayto) uses "confection", yet out article says, "pastry dough". There are probably ways to make ends meet here (I am not an expert in the culinary field), but this requires some changes in the text of this article IMHO: either (1) the terminology can be changed to reflect the source, or the use the term "dough" here can be somehow explained to match the source. Викидим (talk) 10:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Dan Palraz:, re-pinging @M.Bitton:. Викидим (talk) 10:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

@Викидим: I have been meaning to expand this article, but just didn't have the time to look for the proper sources (those that know the difference between this and the Turkish pastry), such as this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by M.Bitton (talk • contribs)

An {{under construction}} might help to slow people like me down :-) --Викидим (talk) 10:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Here's another source that will probably come up. I don't particularly rate Gil Marks as his claims tend to be hit and miss. M.Bitton (talk) 13:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 13:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

There is also this source. M.Bitton (talk) 13:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems like researchers use many word combinations for the Turkish dessert: "Dolma kadayif, burma kadayif, künefe and tray kadayif are among the traditional dessert varieties produced using tel kadayif" Викидим (talk) 18:45, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but all of them, including what the source that you cited calls "Turkish", have the same origin (Qataif). Unfortunately, there aren't many good sources about the subject (I counted three so far, four if we include Gil Marks). I'll keep looking and if nothing else is found, I'll rename this article "Qataif" (assuming you and others agree) and use the sources that we have to expand this article. If you have a better idea, please do not hesitate to share. M.Bitton (talk) 19:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

References

Disambiguation

We have Kadayif, Kadayif (pastry), Qatayef, Kataifi/Kadaif (redirecting to Knafeh, where neither word is even mentioned). These five, and the re-redirection activity here all call for a WP:Disambiguation page. Викидим (talk) 10:24, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Ideally, this article should be renamed "Qataif" (the original Arabic word). M.Bitton (talk) 10:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

IMHO we need a page that bring all Kadayifs together so that the man on the Clapham omnibus like me can figure out which one they are looking for. Викидим (talk) 10:34, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

That could be done once we expanded this article to explain how they are all related. M.Bitton (talk) 11:00, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Adamtt9, Lazesusdasiru, Arminden, IamNotU, Rosguill, Largoplazo, and Scope creep: Викидим (talk) 10:50, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Seems like a merge of Kadayif (pastry) into Qatayef would consolidate the most relevant content--I imagine M.Bitton is correct about which romanized title to move the article to. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I would never recognise Romanian "cataif" if hidden under many of the guises listed above. From a Central or West European perspective, all "Oriental/Eastern" sweets are similar: dough, nuts, sweet syrup. But once you enter the fray and take into consideration what is absolutely typical and obligatory for each type of dessert in one specific country or sub-region (and there alone), the differences become very clear. Romanian cataif MUST have thin, crispy noodles on top. Many of the other desserts listed above (kadayif, kadayif pastry, qatayef, kataifi/kadaif, knafeh) simply don't, and have very little in common beyond being "Oriental" and sweet.

Common etymological roots of the name mean little when talking about dishes, which have evolved in very different ways across the huge geographical area where the approximate name and concept has spread over the centuries.

Cross-ref as much as possible, especially under "etymology" or "origin", but the same they are most certainly not. Arminden (talk) 21:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

We should obviously follow sources as closely as possible. From what I recall, however, the sources at Kadayif (pastry) directly identify it with Arabic qataif, do not specify any details that would differentiate kadayif from qataif, and further provide additional links to subtypes which are differentiated such as Tel kadayıf, Ekmek kadayif (and also, perhaps erroneously, Kunefe) _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorting

This is my attempt to sort out the meanings of kadayif along with the sources used for that. Please note that I do not cook myself, do not eat Middle-Eastern sweets unless I am in ME (not frequently), do not know the ME culture otherwise. My sources are pretty random, as I am going for clarity, not precision here. So, do not shoot the piano player, but feel free to correct the list and replace sources. --Викидим (talk) 21:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Kadayif may refer to either unfinished product (like dough) or confection. Note that tray kadaif might belong to both groups. In Turkish cuisine Kadayif is a generic name for a group of pastry desserts found in the cookbook Melceü't-Tabbâhîn (1844).

• Unfinished products
  • Kadayif flour, special flour made from bisquit class wheat
  • Wire kadayif, also tel kadayif and string kadayif, semi-processed product of mixing wheat flour and water, cooked and optionally fried, vermicelli-like, Arabic products made of similar dough are cold knafeh
  • Tray kadaif, per Turkish standard TS 10344 it is a semi-processed (baked) water and flour mix product
• Confections
  • Tray kadayif, a dessert produced using tel kadayif and walnut. Variety of oils, hazelnut, sugar syrups can be added
  • Yassi kadayif, a pancake resembling Arabic qatayef dumpling (while katayif comes from qatayef linguistically, there is little overlap in actual desserts) Also flat kadayif, Arab kadayif
  • Turkish künefe is filled with cheese
  • Ekmek kadayifi or bread kadayif is made by pouring syrup on the bread. If leftover dry bread is used, it is fodula kadayif
  • dolma kadayif, stuffed kadayif - walnuts wrapped in tel kadaif and deep-fried
  • burma kadayif is made from tel kadayif in Diyarbakır
• Yet unsorted
  • white kadayıf, creamy kadayıf, palace wire kadayıf

Bezirgan declares "stone kadayif" to be the same as "flat" and "bread". This does not jive with other sources, so I am discounting Bezirgan.

Başar & Boz talk about lean kadayif and yufka kadayif. Well "yufka" is "thin" and filo dough, but no corroboration found for "yufka kadayif".

References

Sources

• Walczak-Mikołajczakowa, Mariola (2023-04-23). "Turkish Borrowings in Bulgarian Lexis Related to Cuisine and Cooking" (PDF). Przegląd Humanistyczny (66/4): 93–101. doi:10.31338/2657-599X.ph.2022-4.7.
• Bezirgan, Muammer (2024-06-06), Turkish Desserts and the Place of Desserts in Turkish Cuisine (PDF), doi:10.5281/ZENODO.11509656, ISBN 978-2-38236-680-6
• Fidan, Zeliha; Kübra, Aktaş (2024). "Improvement of bread kadayıf formulation with wheat germ addition and different fermentation methods".
• Başar, Burak; Boz, Hüseyin (2023-05-04). "Effect of different oils and sugar syrups on the properties of tray kadayif (traditional Turkish dessert)". Journal of Ethnic Foods. 10 (1). doi:10.1186/s42779-023-00178-3. ISSN 2352-6181.
• Savlak, Nazlı Yeyinli; Köse, Ergun (2013). "Bazı Özel Amaçlı Unların Kalite Özellikleri" [Quality Characteristics of Some Special Purpose Flours]. Akademik Gıda (in Turkish). 11 (2): 125–130.
• Civelek, P.; Kotancılar, H.G.; Türkoğlu, K. (2024). "Investigation of The Effect of Using Whole Wheat Flour and Different Additives in Bread Kadayif on Acrylamide and Hydroxymethyl Furfural (HMF)". Food Science and Engineering Research. 3 (1): 68–78.
• Krondl, M. (2011). Sweet Invention: A History of Dessert. Chicago Review Press. ISBN 978-1-56976-954-6. Retrieved 2025-01-04.
• Seyyedcheraghi, K; Kotancilar, H G; Karaoglu, M M (2019). "Determination of acrylamide and hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) values as affected by frying duration and temperature levels during the preparation of tray kadayif dessert". Applied Ecology and Environmental Research. 17 (2): 4007–4017. doi:10.15666/aeer/1702_40074017.
• Başar, Burak (2017). Farkli yağ ve şeker şurubunun tepsi kadayifin duyusal ve dokusal özelliklerine etkisi [Effect Of Different Fat and Sugar Syrups on the Sensory and Textural Properties of Tray Kadayif] (Master thesis) (in Turkish). Erzurum: Ataturk University.

Observations

Based on the sorting experiment above, here are some of my observations:

1. Kadayif is a very generic name, so Kadayif probably should be made into WP:disambiguation or WP:set index
2. maybe this new Kadayif is worth merging with Kadayif (pastry)
3. Kadayif term is not confined to pastry products that are made from vermicelli-like strands of dough, so Kadayif (pastry) shall reflect this reality
4. Sources clearly spell the difference between Kadayif and Qatayef, so these articles most likely are worth keeping separate
5. Tel kadayıf is a semi-processed ingredient, and thus worth keeping as a separate article
6. Tray kadayif is the tricky one as it can be a finished product, like kunefe, or if Seyyedcheraghi et al. are to be trusted, a semi-processed ingredient (can some one find the relevant Turkish standard?)
7. the rest of the tel kadaif-based products can be lumped together into kunefe, IMHO

--Викидим (talk) 19:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Plans

1. There were no objections so far, so I am planning to turn this article (Kadayif) into WP:outline (or WP:set index) along the lines suggested on this page above under the #Sorting.

Pinging recent participants: @M.Bitton, Rosguill, and Arminden: --Викидим (talk) 08:38, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

There was no objection either to what I suggested above. M.Bitton (talk) 11:30, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know what this suggestion entails. Please just mind the core of what I wrote:

"... Romanian cataif MUST have thin, crispy noodles on top. Many of the other desserts listed above (kadayif, kadayif pastry, qatayef, kataifi/kadaif, knafeh) simply don't , and have very little in common beyond being "Oriental" and sweet.

Common etymological roots of the name mean little when talking about dishes, which have evolved in very different ways across the huge geographical area where the approximate name and concept has spread over the centuries.

Cross-ref as much as possible, especially under "etymology" or "origin", but the same they are most certainly not." Arminden (talk) 13:36, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

It doesn't look like any of the sources examined so far have discussed the Romanian dish, so that seems to be out of scope for now. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:30, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with you that the generic Kadayif has many disparate meanings (see #Sorting above). The questions in front of us are, IMHO:

1. Do we need an overview of all the kadayifs / qatayefs / cataifs out there? My answer to that is "definitely yes", as without such an overview the confusion is palpable.
2. Should this overview be a
   • WP:disambiguation (this is my understanding of your position: things are very different, although spelled similarly),
   • WP:outline (this is my weak preference: things are different, but related in non-trivial way and deserve a brief overview with explanations and sources), or
   • WP:set index (things are somewhat similar, but different upon a close look)?

   Note that my #Sorting above can be used for the content of this overview in any case, so I am looking for input on this as well.

3. What would be the name of this overview article? I proposed to usurp Kadayif, as it is currently not developed, but I am not married to this title and wide open to other suggestions (if we decide to go the disambiguation way, Kadayif (disambiguation) is the natural place, if outline is preferred, Outline of kadayif is available).

Викидим (talk) 22:46, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I thought that I have raised the objection against merging Kadayif and Qatayef by citing Krondl 2011, who explicitly stated that while related linguistically, these things have little in common otherwise (the "Arab Kadayif" notwithstanding). Sorry for not being clear about it. Викидим (talk) 22:32, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Seeing no feedback for two weeks, I will be moving with my preference (outline). To avoid the discussion in this article, while in search for a better title, I will use Outline of katayif. Pinging @M.Bitton, Rosguill, and Arminden:. --Викидим (talk) 08:35, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

It is extremly popular in Greece apparently, according to a family member. I was planning send it back to Afd, when my family member mentioned it and then I saw a travel programme on it, purely by chance, saying it was very popular in Greece. scope_creep^Talk 09:36, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the "outline" format. It sounds appropriate, except that it posits a hierarchy or chronology - what came 1st, 2nd, 3rd... etc. - and nobody seems to know who adopted what but changed what. So it will look more like a list than a genealogical tree, but that's OK, as long as all items are linked here in all technically possible ways, and where we happen to know that several are closely related in a group (I don't know, maybe in the Balkans), cross-ref them among each other. Arminden (talk) 11:04, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

I merged Kadayif (pastry) into this article without reading the talk page--oops. Sorry not to have listened to the careful thinking here. I'm reverting those changes. But I think that particular merge should be performed without further deliberation; actually it should go the other way around--this page should be merged into Kadayif (pastry), to keep the wikidata items in line.

Now I understand the "outline" page, though I'm not sure that form achieves the desired objective perfectly. Its content is useful, however.

I agree that Kadayif and Qatayef should remain separate. The Turkish wikipedia pages Kataif and Kadayıf make a similar distinction to that distinction, with appropriate wikidata items. The Arabic wikipedia page on this topic unambiguously corresponds to Qatayef, which is correct based on my experience; there is no Arabic wikipedia page corresponding to the Turkish Kadayıf. Will Hanley (talk) 20:20, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

I agree with not merging Kadayif and Qatayef: there is at least one reasonably solid source explicitly stating that these do not have much in common, with the exception of the etymology. See the details in Outline of kadayif. Викидим (talk) 21:04, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

1. Note that there is also Tel kadayif that can be both a final pastry or a half-baked product.
2. There is also a mysterious tray kadayif that can be frequently found in the Turkish research works written in English, but apparently has no analog on Turkish Wikipedia. I strongly feel that is is yet another way to say "tel kadayif" in some of its meanings, but found no good RS so far. Note of caution: I am very much not an expert (but have read a lot of sources both in English and in Turkish before compiling them into the Outline of kadayif).

Викидим (talk) 21:11, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

A stub

See Outlook of kadayifOutline of kadayif. --Викидим (talk) 21:18, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Why do you want us to look at a nonexistent article? Largoplazo (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Try Outline of kadayif _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:26, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I think this looks great, and should be moved to be at Kadayif. Jpatokal (talk) 21:55, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

That's a terrible idea. M.Bitton (talk) 21:58, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

I am not arguing (here) either way, but trying to understand the problem. Do you disagree with the term "kadayif" having multiple meanings? Or do you have other issues with the Outline of kadayif? Викидим (talk) 22:02, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

The outline of kadayif seems to be a collection of pastries, most of them in Turkish, while Kdayif if the common name for the pastry dough. M.Bitton (talk) 22:09, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

The sources provided do not clearly state this fact IMHO. Of the two sources present, the first, Ayto 2012 seemingly describes what we here call tel kadayif (a product version), not a a dough. The second source indeed states that it is "dough" that is "shredded" (making tel kadayif?). After that, however, as a synonym, knafeh is listed, this is definitely a finished product. Викидим (talk) 22:26, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

To clarify: I think the current lead of Outline of kadayif, which incorrectly implies that this is only "Turkish pastries", needs work. However, the rest of the content, which covers kadayif-the-noodle as well as kadayif-the-pastry, seems very comprehensive. Jpatokal (talk) 19:45, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I propose merging Outline of kadayif into Kadayif. There's no reason to have two short articles on this type of dough—the list of desserts can be merged into this article. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:30, 8 August 2025 (UTC)

Personally, I have no problem with a all-encompassing article on kadayif. However, we are in a situation where there are multiple articles on the subject, including, in addition to this one:

• Kadayif (pastry)
• Qatayef
• Ekmek kadayıfı
• Knafeh, which is by nature a kadayif pastry

I have no objections against bringing all these together (note also many more kadayif variations in the Turkish Wikipedia), but it might be easier to have a WP:disambiguation. The outline is exactly this disambiguation, IMHO. Викидим (talk) 16:38, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

A clear disambiguation is needed

@Klöterisch: This article uses the title Kadayif. This word is used (alone or with qualifiers) to define oh so many things, from the flour to finished desserts. We have few articles on the subject already, Turkish Wikipedia has a lot of them. Some king of a link to WP:disambiguation is needed as a WP:hatnote. A {{outline}} was used for that purpose for quite some time. The other articles were cross-linked through the same machinery. You have removed this links here (and in other places) with an edit summary that appears to me to be factually incorrect: includes sentences like „Cataif, a Romanian dessert with crispy noodles on top“ - the section quoted is "See also", it is not expected to contain complete sentences. Please help me understand your position by answering a couple of questions:

1. Do you agree that some other articles, like Kadayif (pastry) and Qatayef, describe items that can be searched by the reader that stumbles upon this article?
2. If the answer is yes, what navigation would you like to see for the reader to be able to quickly reach these articles? The removed template "outline" served this purpose before.

Викидим (talk) 16:55, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

1. Yes, a reader with eyes can see that qatayef and kadayif are different foods.

2. Why would he need an outline in the first place? He knows what kadayif is from this article and that knafeh and other desserts made with it exist. What he does not need is a manipulative article that describes itself as the „Outline of Kadayif“ while apparently only covering turkish versions of desserts made with that dough. Whats also bad is that knafeh there is called künefe and described as „Turkish künefe is made with cheese“, well every knafeh is made with cheese, thats the entire point and why even use a turkified version of the word when the dish is arabic? Probably because the article basically only talks about what variations of dessert made with kadayif are made and known in Turkey. Well in that case I‘d title this badly written article „Outline of Kadayif variations eaten in Turkey“. Klöterisch (talk) 17:47, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

(1) Please stay WP:CIVIL and follow WP:AGF. manipulative article violates both. (2) We are colleagues here, so if you are unhappy with a particular text, you can try to improve it. Removing the links to disambiguation while acknowledging the need for such (a reader with eyes can see that qatayef and kadayif are different foods is exavctly what {{distinguish}}, {{about}}, {{other uses}}, and yes, {{outline}} actually exist for) does not seem to me to be constructive. Please stop deleting the links and let's improve the disambiguation situation together. (3) The Outline of kadayif includes a link for qatayef (and clearly states that this is a very different dish), so this is clearly not an issue. (4) There are more lines about Turkish dishes than Arabic in the outline for a simple reason - there are more names for different desserts that have "kadayif" in their name - and, correspondingly, more articles on Wikipedia. Treat the outline article as a WP:disambiguation with explanations, it is no more than that, Викидим (talk) 20:31, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

Alright, but first off, I did not acknowledge Its need. I just said that the difference is obvious, but what I have moticed is that you may be attacking a strawman, since you try to make it seem like qatayef is the arabic version and that kadayif is the turkish verison If Im not seeing this wrong, but infact, both are arabic desserts, or dough strings (in case of kadayif) used to make desserts like the Arabic Knafeh, or the Turkish tel kadayif. As youve said, I can then improve that article and make it more global in adressing actually all kadayif variations and make it an actual well-written article. Klöterisch (talk) 21:10, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

First of all, a full disclosure that might be useful:

• I truly do not care about these desserts (and don't even like any of them).
• My only connection to Turkish culture is approximately a week I spent in Turkey as a tourist (not at the resorts)
• My only connection to Arab culture is approximately two weeks I spent in Egypt as a tourist (not at the resorts)

Therefore, I am as impartial as it gets here and therefore it should be easy to persuade me to change the texts as long as I understand the reason.

Situation in which apparently (and I think that you would agree with me) kadayif and qatayef is the same word used for two different desserts depending on the spelling, kadayif is also 10 other desserts, one of which is the same as qatayef but is called knafeh (if my narrative is slighly off, just let me know) calls for some disambiguation, so that the reader who landed on a wrong page due to essentially a spelling variation knows where our other articles on the subject are. This disambiguation can be achieved through some hatnotes. Since there are clearly more than two meanings (we have four articles at least, Turkish Wikipedia - more than 10), a dedicated disambiguation page seems to be an obvious solution, referred to from all the articles of the kadayif/qatayef/knafeh/... cycle.

There was a long discussion (above on this page) about how to proceed, I had an idea and, slowly, suggested how to proceed. Seeing no opposition, I have posted the Outline of kadayif as it exists now. That said, I am not married to its text and ready to discuss changes, but the proposal should not include, IMHO, cutting the reader off an easy navigation to articles on a variety of deserts related to qataef linguistically or in the culinary sense. Викидим (talk) 22:31, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

Alright then Klöterisch (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

I am planning then to restore the {{outline}}. Викидим (talk) 05:31, 5 July 2026 (UTC)