Talk:Junnar

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History of Junnar

Please the name of Alfansy Nikitin should not be continously getting readded in this city's history where he spent two months as he in his diary has described very negatively of Indian country from this city to Bidar with severe prejudices of its natives and culture in real Non-Soviet History which Soviets falsely made him as first person of europe for foundation of Indo-Soviet ties which was nothing in its real story history. ~2026-24433-33 (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a paid-for advert. The NPOV policy means that it would be very wrong to delete mention of this 15th Century account. NPOV "means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:54, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

History of Junnar

In 1470, the Russian merchant Afanasy Nikitin spent two months in Junnar during the monsoon season. In his travelogue, The Journey Beyond Three Seas, he described the town's geography and recorded the challenges he faced under the local governor, Asad Khan, who seized Nikitin's horse and unsuccessfully pressured him to convert to Islam [1][2]." ~2026-24365-06 (talk) 12:52, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia with international readership.You can not delete something which is not to your liking.BTW, if you seriously want to edit here, I recommend you get a username.Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 16:19, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

no that will not work the facts about Nikitin is very wrong that he vividly described about Bahamini Sultanate in 2 months. In his book of Journey Beyond three seas he has written very opposite of this place Junnar with strong prejudices of its native,culture and weather which must be edited or completely removed for mentioning. These are all done during the time Soviet renarratives of telling their story history to gain geopolitical support in India during Cold War. ~2026-24365-06 (talk) 18:21, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources for your criticisms of The Journey Beyond Three Seas?-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:27, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Do you want the proof then will you agree and allow me to edit. ~2026-24360-80 (talk) 18:40, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Please provide the reliable sources for your criticisms here.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:46, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

see India in 15th century by author R.H Major published for Hakluyt society. ~2026-24565-00 (talk) 01:40, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Proposal to balance historical observations and historiography

I suggest we update the "Observations" and "Legacy" sections to include a more balanced view of Nikitin's journey, drawing from both his original text and modern historiographical analysis.

Currently, the article emphasizes a mid-20th-century "friendship" narrative (often linked to the 1957 film *Pardesi*). However, scholarly sources indicate that Nikitin's original account contains significant criticisms and personal struggles that are currently omitted.

• • Specific points to include:**
• **Socio-Economic Criticism:** Nikitin’s observation of the stark wealth gap, noting "the countrymen are very poor, but the boyars are rich and live in luxury."
• **Trade Issues:** His discouragement regarding the Indian markets, specifically that he found "no goods for the Russian market" and faced heavy taxes.
• **Cultural Dissonance:** His recorded "shock" at local traditions and his documented "spiritual crisis" regarding his religious isolation.
• **Historiographical Shift:** Acknowledge that Soviet-era translations often minimized these "negative" aspects to promote diplomatic goals, as noted by modern scholars.

• • Reliable Sources:**

1. **R.H. Major (1857)**, India in the Fifteenth Century, Hakluyt Society. (Provides the scholarly translation of his criticisms). 2. **Gail Lenhoff (1989)**, "Trubetzkoy's 'Afanasii Nikitin' Reconsidered." (Analyzes how the original text was re-narrated in the 20th century). 3. **The Hindu (2011)**, "Voyage beyond the three seas." (Validates the "unprejudiced" yet critical nature of his account).

I believe these additions are necessary for WP:NPOV. Thoughts?

~2026-24565-00 (talk) 02:38, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Well I found India in the Fifteenth Century. Please can you provide more details. Using citation templates would help. For example:

• Major, R.H. (1857). "The Travels of Athanasius Nikitin of Twer.". India in the Fifteenth Century. Translated by Count Wiekhorsky. Hakluyt Society.

When citing books, it helps to include the page numbers you are referring to. In the case of India in the Fifteenth Century pagination is by chapter - so the chapter on The Travels of Athanasius Nikitin of Twer has pages 3-32, but other chapters may have their own page 3.-- Toddy1 (talk) 03:06, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

The DOI link below only allows free access to the first two pages of Trubetzkoy's Afanasii Nikitin Reconsidered. I assume that this is the article you meant.

• Lenhoff, Gail (1984). "Trubetzkoy's Afanasii Nikitin Reconsidered". Canadian American Slavic Studies. 18 (4). doi:10.1163/221023984X01170.

-- Toddy1 (talk) 04:57, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

• Gurukkal, Rajan (31 May 2011). "Voyage beyond the Three Seas". The Hindu.

This is refers to a book:

• Minayev, Ivan Pavlovich (2010). Old India. Har-Anand Publication. ISBN 9788124115978. This book is also known as Old India: notes on Afanasy Nikitin's voyage, though the book cover displayed by The Hindu gives the title as Old India.

Minayev's book is not listed by well known internet bookshops.-- Toddy1 (talk) 05:19, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

There is also an article in Scroll.in

• Kamalakaran, Ajay (27 November 2021). "Pilgrimages, conflicts and naked women: A Russian merchant's impressions of 15th-century India". Scroll.in.

-- Toddy1 (talk) 05:27, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Detailed citations for Afanasy Nikitin’s observations

Thank you for the suggestion. I have compiled the specific details and formatted them using the appropriate citation templates for the article.

Detailed Citations and Supporting Quotes from Nikitin

• • 1. Observations on Socio-Economic Disparity**
• Major, Richard Henry (1857). "The Travels of Athanasius Nikitin, of Twer". India in the Fifteenth Century: Being a Collection of Narratives of Voyages to India. London: Hakluyt Society. p. 14.
• **Supporting Quote:** "The land is very overstocked with people; those of the country are very poor, but the boyars are rich and live in luxury; they are carried in silver litters..." (p. 14).

• • 2. Trade Discouragement and Economic Criticism**
• Major, Richard Henry (1857). India in the Fifteenth Century. p. 21.
• **Detail:** Nikitin expresses frustration regarding the commercial viability for Russian merchants, noting there were "no goods for the Russian market" (p. 21) and detailing the high duties and personal risks involved in trade.

• • 3. Cultural Dissonance and Religious Struggle**
• Major, Richard Henry (1857). India in the Fifteenth Century. pp. 16, 25–26.
• **Detail:** He records his personal "trauma" regarding local customs, including cremation and dietary laws. On page 26, he explicitly laments his spiritual isolation in a "heathen" land, famously referring to his journey as a "sinful voyage" because he had lost his Christian calendar and was forced to navigate religious pressures.

• • 4. Secondary Historiographical Context**
• Lenhoff, Gail (1989). "Trubetzkoy's "Afanasii Nikitin" Reconsidered". Comparative Studies on Muslim Societies. 18 (4): 577–592.
• **Context:** This source provides the necessary secondary analysis to discuss the "Soviet renarrative," explaining how Nikitin’s original religious crisis and criticisms were minimized in 20th-century portrayals to emphasize diplomatic "friendship."

I believe these detailed citations will allow us to update the article with the precision required for high-quality historical entries. ~2026-24565-00 (talk) 05:23, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2026

Please the name of Nikitin travellor has to be removed for falsely written as vivid description of Bahamin Sultanate during his stay for 2months in 1470 as the reliable sources are provided from 1857 author and submitted in the talk section which Soviets hid from India during Cold War.~2026-24753-82 (talk) 07:00, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Please show how reliable secondary sources support what you are saying. e.g. provide a quotation from specified reliable newspaper article saying this, or a quotation from a reliable academic journal (and saying which page the quotation is from), or a quotation from a specified book that gives the page reference.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:13, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Detailed Citations and Supporting Quotes from Nikitin

• • 1. Observations on Socio-Economic Disparity**
• Major, Richard Henry (1857). "The Travels of Athanasius Nikitin, of Twer". India in the Fifteenth Century: Being a Collection of Narratives of Voyages to India. London: Hakluyt Society. p. 14.
• **Supporting Quote:** "The land is very overstocked with people; those of the country are very poor, but the boyars are rich and live in luxury; they are carried in silver litters..." (p. 14).
  • 2. Trade Discouragement and Economic Criticism**
• Major, Richard Henry (1857). India in the Fifteenth Century. p. 21.
• **Detail:** Nikitin expresses frustration regarding the commercial viability for Russian merchants, noting there were "no goods for the Russian market" (p. 21) and detailing the high duties and personal risks involved in trade.
  • 3. Cultural Dissonance and Religious Struggle**
• Major, Richard Henry (1857). India in the Fifteenth Century. pp. 16, 25–26.
• **Detail:** He records his personal "trauma" regarding local customs, including cremation and dietary laws. On page 26, he explicitly laments his spiritual isolation in a "heathen" land, famously referring to his journey as a "sinful voyage" because he had lost his Christian calendar and was forced to navigate religious pressures.
  • 4. Secondary Historiographical Context**
• Lenhoff, Gail (1989). "Trubetzkoy's "Afanasii Nikitin" Reconsidered". Comparative Studies on Muslim Societies. 18 (4): 577–592.
• **Context:** This source provides the necessary secondary analysis to discuss the "Soviet renarrative," explaining how Nikitin’s original religious crisis and criticisms were minimized in 20th-century portrayals to emphasize diplomatic "friendship."

~2026-24607-33 (talk) 07:27, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

The paragraph you kept trying to delete on 20-21 April was:

• In the 1400s, the Russian traveler, Afanasy Nikitin spent two months in Junnar during the monsoon season. He describes vividly the life in the Bahamani-ruled area around Junnar.

I do not see anything in the quotations above that contradicts that paragraph.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:01, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

not proper contradiction but its still misleading for readers as the traveller described the place with watery and dirt and hence with tragic journeyin book named India in 15th century.Hence it must be removed else I will considered you acting pro western mindset just like in cold war era based on false reasons and I will complain for your illegal rejection. ~2026-24864-25 (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Are you trying to erase history? Afanasy in his book describes what he saw in Junnar during his travels. In the article, it only mentions that he spent two months there, why is that objectionable? Rather than spending time on just these two sentences, I would recommend finding descriptions of Junnar from other sources too, given the more than two millennia history associated with the town and the surrounding areas! Thanks, and please get a username. Jonathansammy (talk) 15:38, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Not just trying to erase the history whose journey was tragic but also to convince you that this all were turn during cold war era when Nikita Khrushchev himself falsely turned Nikitin into romantic figure of early indo soviet culture and also claiming once person from europe to reach India and in fact first person Marco Polo who also reached Maharastra near thane but nowhere mentioned in Wikipedia.This gives impression cold war minset of describing whether of medevial or modern period thus erasing its real part and views. Hence since then you have continued to use as a source Soviet renarrative history of Nikitin whose influence of soviet mindset of brothhood based on false reasons is still seen in public of soviet union successor rather than with actual history.Hence overall it makes insult to the nationality shamefully of Soviet Union's successor nation just like North Korea forcefully does to its citizens using cult personality.Had Soviet union not existed Nikitin's journey would have never been shared.It is tragically that Soviet Union committed insulting and fraud acts against original nationality just in pressure otherwise it would never and therefore must delete as a useless part and treat travellor like ordinary guest ~2026-24669-54 (talk) 16:14, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

and he is not been described in any other place in india as checked. ~2026-24692-47 (talk) 18:24, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

Regardless, do you agree that he came to India, and spent time in Junnar before going to Bidar? Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 22:09, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

yes I do agree but that was his forceful stay due to bad weather conditions even just for two months even in watery and dirty conditions and once again I would say important that must understand Not just trying to erase the history whose journey was tragic but also to convince you that this all were turn during cold war era of dirty politics. ~2026-24855-49 (talk) 00:56, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

Ibn Batuta just spent a night in Bhatkal on the west coast India before proceeding further but even that gets mentioned in his memoir so on that basis two months is an eternity.He may been disparaging about India and indians but that is not grounds for removing the content from this article.Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 16:15, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

But in this case it is different his journey to india was by mistaken and very tragic and he was trapped here in Junnar due to bad weather which was rainy and dirty everywhere and also he was forced to convert to Islam if you read proper history from Book India in 15th century after from calling Indians with black faces.Due to think such tragedy and insult here for any Travellers deserves his mention whose answer is simply no. Also his is mentioned due to dirty politics playes during Cold war by Nikita Khrushchev based on lies and myth . Aren't you ashamed of this. ~2026-24935-19 (talk) 02:39, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

Please stop writing nonsense. Tragic is when your 12 year old daughter is killed by a Russian drone, not when it rains and the roads are muddy on your trip abroad. The English-language translation published in London in 1857 had nothing to do with the Cold War.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)his real history the tragic has strong meaning and described primarily because of the extreme hardships he endured during his journey and his death just before reaching his homeland.

The tragic elements of his journey include:

Violent Beginnings: His 1466 trade expedition began with disaster when his ships were captured by robbers and another was wrecked in a storm on the Caspian Sea. Having lost his goods, he could not return home to Tver without facing debt and potential imprisonment, forcing him to continue deeper into unknown lands to find new trade routes.

Religious & Cultural Isolation: As a devout Orthodox Christian, Nikitin felt a deep sense of spiritual loss and isolation. He struggled to keep track of Christian holidays and felt pressured to convert to Islam, eventually adopting the name Khoja Yusuf Khorasani to survive and move freely in India.

Severe Homesickness: His travelogue, The Journey Beyond Three Seas, is filled with a profound longing for Russia. He famously wrote, "May God protect the Russian land! There is no land in the world like it," despite also criticising the injustice of its rulers.

Death on the Threshold: After nearly six years away, Nikitin died in 1472 (or 1475) near Smolensk, only about 400 kilometres from his home in Tver. He never saw his family or homeland again. Special:Contributions/~2026-25166-22|~2026-25166-22]] (talk) 17:43, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

I propose removing the mention of Afanasy Nikitin from the main 'History' summary. While Nikitin's travelogue is a primary source, his presence in Junnar was limited to a two-month monsoon stay in 1471. Dedicating a full sentence to a passing visitor in a summary meant to cover 2,000 years of history is a violation of WP:UNDUE.

Proportionality dictates that this space be prioritized for the Satavahana dynasty, which established Junnar as an early capital, or the Maratha Empire, given the local significance of Shivneri Fort as the birthplace of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj. Nikitin’s observations—while historically interesting—did not shape the political, religious, or administrative development of the town. This detail is better suited for a 'Notable Visitors' list or the specialized 'Afanasy Nikitin' article rather than a concise summary of Junnar's local history. Special:Contributions/~2026-25166-22|~2026-25166-22]] (talk) 18:10, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

Please see WP:NPA. Focus on the content, not editors. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 17:54, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

I should also add that you do not have consensus for your change, therefore continuing to hop between temporary accounts to remove this will only lead to your edits being reverted and the page being protected for a longer period of time. Using large language models to write arguments for you also does not help you. Mellk (talk) 18:39, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

No you have to remove the Nikitin one as it was only revealed to India about its history by Nikita Khrushchev while meeting with Jawaharlal Nehru who quickly wanted establishing alliance through silly excuses and lies by romanticising Nikitin as a development of early Indo-Soviet culture bonds and portraying West as an imperialists. If you think its a lie then check and read in details about history to properly understand about them before arguing as your sign of argument is totally irrelevant and absurd. ~2026-25148-14 (talk) 04:46, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

We already have a reliable source cited. You need to do better if you want to prove that Michael H. Fisher was duped by propaganda. Mellk (talk) 08:48, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

what reliable do you have and what do you mean Micheal h.Fisher? ~2026-25316-72 (talk) 10:06, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

The book cited is Visions of Mughal India: An Anthology of European Travel Writing (2007). The author is Michael H. Fisher. Mellk (talk) 10:27, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

No you can't carry on this is not true and fair at all . It's only one source of reliability but other majority reliable sources which I shared says the opposite of what you think. Hence you must agree that this all were done on the basis of dirty politics during cold war era when Nikita Khrushchev himself falsely turned Nikitin into romantic figure of early indo soviet culture when meeting with first Indian pm Nehru in 1955 and also claiming first person from europe to reach India and in fact first person was Marco Polo who also reached Maharastra near Thane but he is nowhere mentioned in Wikipedia.This gives the impression of cold war style mindset of describing whether of medevial or modern period thus erasing the Nikitin's real history views.Since then modern diplomats of both India and Soviet Successor's have continued to use Soviet renarrative history source of Nikitin whose influence of Soviet and now russia mindset of brothhood with Indians based on false reasons is still seen in public of soviet union successor rather than with actual history. ~2026-25257-58 (talk) 12:44, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

Please morally dont ignore the Soviet era revealed facts based on dirty politics. You must remove as it is not really that important to be in summarized form but in detail facts as this man's name and presence no impact in india. ~2026-27196-46 (talk) 08:52, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

you have to remove immorally way mentioned of Nikitin its not fair at all? ~2026-35499-72 (talk) 15:40, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2026

In the 1400s, the Russian traveler, Afanasy Nikitin spent two months in Junnar during the monsoon season. He describes vividly the life in the Bahamani-ruled area around Junnar. ~2026-27942-95 (talk) 10:26, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

References

It is not clear what you want. You used Template:Trim; this template trims leading and trailing (but not interior) whitespace from a string. -- Toddy1 (talk) 11:21, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

This I want you to remove it permanently because it is falsely justified through myth by renarration of this traveller during Soviet era while developing partnership with India under pressure during which later historians Michael Fisher blindly wrote this myth rather than real history. ~2026-28870-51 (talk) 10:27, 14 May 2026 (UTC)

This issue has already been discussed with you in previous sections. Please stop raising it over and over again, using different, irrelevant excuses.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:04, 14 May 2026 (UTC)

If it seems irrelevant excuses (Personal attack removed) which is not and cant be tolerable if you go on with your way. ~2026-29007-18 (talk) 07:46, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Please see the diff of the revert by ScottishFinnishRadish at 14:45, 22 April 2026 (UTC).-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:43, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Between the WP:IDHT and the WP:PAs mixed in with WP:CIR, it's become quite obvious that Wikipedia isn't for this TA. Blocked. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:15, 15 May 2026 (UTC)