Talk:Joyce Castle

Sources (see talk page header)

The cited sources do not alone assert notability. Coverage must be significant - one published source may be inadequate while others may not be reliable. Further information regarding the type and number sources required to verify claims made in biographies of performing artists, and establishing notability can be found at WP:RS, WP:GNG, and WP:ENT. --Kudpung (talk) 02:01, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Lead Paragraph

As explained in the Wikipedia Manual of style, the lead section should be "an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents", (my emphasis). This may be the only part of the article the reader reads, so it's important that it is concise and to the point about the subject's notability. Currently this article starts out telling the reader all about ;

• Castle's family, marriages and divorces
• her first minor parts when she was in education
• her day job at the start of her career
• where she studied
• where she lived

None of this is important, or has anything to do with her notability. It is generally detail best left to the article body. Very few people are seeking out this article on the basis of who her second husband was.

I would suggest that ;

• The detail of her family and early life be reduced to just note where she comes from.
• The stuff about her personal life is removed completely (unless it can be demonstrated it plays an important part in her notability?).
• The detail about her other jobs and education be removed completely. They play no part in her notability and are amply covered in the article.
• The detail about her first roles be limited to perhaps her first leading role, and not let it delay getting to the point of her major roles which make her notable.

Thanks. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 08:44, 18 May 2026 (UTC)

Also, as noted in the first paragraph, what is an active career? Is this different from a career? Is it possible to have an inactive career? I think this would be better phrased as "a career that was active over seven decades." --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 08:57, 18 May 2026 (UTC)

Respectfully, I disagree with your take on MOS which would ignore entire sections of the article. The lead should summarize the whole and briefly summarize the entire article, not just the last section of it. Further, some of the things that you are claiming aren’t relevant, such as her marriages to a famous sculptor and an internationally famous tenor (who should have an article) is just weird. Her dad is also notable as he played in minor and Major League Baseball and would therefore pass NSPORT. Her family connection to well known notable people would absolutely be pertinent in a biography summary. I also think it would be odd not to mention her 22 years as voice professor at KU. I note that as a distinguished professor she meets criteria 5 of WP:NACADEMIC so the assertion that her teaching doesn’t confer notability is not true. Frankly the comments here appear to be from drive by editing rather than someone who actually has read the materials and researched Castle.4meter4 (talk) 09:16, 18 May 2026 (UTC)

I second EscapeOrbit's comments. The lead is full of unessential filler words and asides ("they married around the time she graduated") and unnecessary dates. The lead also jumps around chronologically and and is repetitive: "She attended KU where she graduated in 1961." "At KU she met..." "While a student at KU... ", then back in time to "summer of 1958": the college only needs to be named once in this paragraph, and her college career, if need mention at all in the lead, could be streamlined into one or two sentences. "Castle was primarily active in Europe for the next decade, but occasionally returned to the U.S. to perform" reads like someone telling me a story, not concise, lead-style writing. And unless a divorce was particularly notable it almost never belongs in prose in a lead. As Stunk & White wrote: "Vigorous writing is concise". The lead should emphasize what Castle is most known for by highest quality sources, not simply things she has done. --Animalparty! (talk) 02:35, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

I agree that that the initial attempt was not perfect, and I've sharpened the text for emphasis. I disagree though on certain points. Her marriages and divorces to the sculptor and tenor are covered in high quality sources in pretty much every feature article on the singer that have profiled her life and career. Her marriage to the tenor is emphasized in her relatively tiny entry in the Großes Sängerlexikon (which also has an entry on her ex-husband). Given the fame of both husbands, that is not surprising. Likewise her teaching career has also been a focus of multiple recent publications. A distinguished professorship over more than twenty years is not minor thing. That said, I've worked to tighten the intro more around what has made her important, and have tweaked the lead paragraph. I've removed some extraneous facts, and worked to focus the lead. I hesitate to start adding specific roles to the lead given that articles on her career tend to focus on her surprisingly large repertoire and ability to create many different believable characters in a diverse range of parts with multiple sources referring to her as "the mezzo of a thousand faces". Her premiered works and Mrs. Lovett and Augusta Tabor might be ones worth mentioning given her achievements in those roles, but then when you start naming parts it feels unbalanced in emphasizing her extraordinary range. I've opted instead for quote on the types of roles she has specialized in playing which emphasizes diversity. Best. 4meter4 (talk) 21:46, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. Track your hook after promotion. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Dclemens1971 (talk) 16:35, 15 June 2026 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that opera singer Joyce Castle specialized in portraying nymphomaniacs, witches, lesbians, mothers, the mentally ill, and men?

• Source: *Mears, B. J. (November 1988). "Joyce Castle: Inquiring Mind. The mezzo-soprano who specializes in portraying nuts, mamas, lesbians, nymphomaniacs, witches, and men". Opera Monthly.
• Davis, Lela (December 4, 1988). "Singer Captures Opera World's Heart". The Beaumont Enterprise. p. 11D.

• • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Robert E. Lee cake

5x expanded by 4meter4 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 164 past nominations.

4meter4 (talk) 00:06, 20 May 2026 (UTC).

Detailed and meticulously sourced article on a "character mezzo". I believe that this more precise description would make the hook more interesting than some general "opera singer", even if some may not know what it is, - they can learn from a link. I also think that we should not put in wiki-voice what one critic observed. How about using the exact quote? - In the article, I don't think we need to teach readers interested in this singer what Shakespeare's given name and life were (one example of many), but that's unimportant for DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:10, 21 May 2026 (UTC)

• alt 1 ... that according to one critic character mezzo Joyce Castle "specializes in portraying nuts, mamas, lesbians, nymphomaniacs, witches, and men"?
• alt1a ... that according to one critic opera singer Joyce Castle "specializes in portraying nuts, mamas, lesbians, nymphomaniacs, witches, and men"?

@Gerda Arendt: Done as asked. I also gave a second alt without character mezzo in case it gets objected to as "specialized knowledge". Last time I tried using quotes though I got overruled by the promoter which is why I didn't go with that this last time. They are both there now in case the promoter doesn't like quoted text in a hook. If you wish to make copy edits go for it. I've never been one to feel the need to remove given names as I assume readers are ignorant of historical writers and composers. That is your pet peeve. Not mine.4meter4 (talk) 14:54, 21 May 2026 (UTC)

thank you for the quote hooks, I approve both but believe that the more specific alt1 is also more interesting. Just saying "opera singer" leaves a broad range, - like saying "scientist" without specifying if musicology or chemistry. - I'll copy-edit if I find the time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:09, 21 May 2026 (UTC)

Date of birth

Some sources say 1944 and others 1939 — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:12, 21 May 2026 (UTC)

She confirmed it is 1939 in her 2022 interview with Opera America cited in the article elsewhere. There is also the primary documents (birth certificate etc) in ancestry all supporting the 1939 birth year. Regardless, her age is given in many early newspapers reports from when she was a teenager and college student. Nothing supports a 1944 birth year when reconciling when she was in high school and an undergraduate school and when she married her first husband and the age reported in her wedding announcements from 1961 (age 22). For a long time Castle tried to shave years off her age, which is not uncommon with theatre performers as that impacts what jobs they get hired for. She even stated she had never been on the stage until 1970, but all you have to do is go into newspapers.com and you'll literally find newspaper coverage on her work on stage professionally from 1958 on. She has not been the most reliable reporter on her own career which is why independent materials are necessary, and claims made in interviews need independent fact checking. 4meter4 (talk) 14:34, 21 May 2026 (UTC)