Talk:Josh Kerr

Scottish/British

Just checking in on another couple of athletes to see if there was a convention:

Laura Muir and Megan Keith are stated as 'Scottish'

Jake Wightman (who is Scottish) stated as 'British'

Keely Hodgkinson is stated as 'English'

~2026-40532-43 (talk) 17:19, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

In his sport he competes for Britain, hence British. That is the determining factor. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 17:28, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

He competes for both. Scotland isn't a member of the IOC, Great Britain is, hence at the Olympics he is British. Scotland is a member of the Commonwealth, hence at the Commonwealth Games, he is Scottish.

There is an article covering this debate and long story short, it's an open question steeped in politics. Skyeliam (talk) 19:41, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

Under "international competitions," I count 12 where he competed as British and 1 (Commonwealth Games) where he competed as Scottish. So for this article I think the appropriate choice is clear. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 19:46, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

As @~2026-40532-43 noted, Keely Hodgkinson is described as English, but has also competed primarily for GB, not England. The Commonwealth Games are (to my knowledge) the only such event where people can compete under the flag of the constituent nations of the UK, and they only occur once every four years, whereas the European Athletics Championships are biennial and World Athletics Championships are biennial, meaning their are considerably more opportunities to be "British" rather than "Scottish," "English," "Welsh," or "Northern Irish."

By the way, I'm not weighing in on whether Josh Kerr should be considered one or the other, simply supplying information and informing that this is a more complicated issue than "the athlete competes under this flag at X, Y, or Z event," and also noting that this is a politically charged issue (there is an aphorism amongst Scots that "Andy Murray is British when he wins and Scottish when he loses.")

The fairest way to settle this would be to find a source as to what Kerr considers himself, as the above-linked essay suggests. Skyeliam (talk) 20:53, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

C4 News report today describing him as "British" twice with no reference to Scotland -- or even Edinburgh -- whatsoever, so I think the Andy Murray effect is alive and well. One was almost surprised that the item afterwards didn't assert that the UK had beaten Fiji at Rugby Union.

UK media -- OK, English media, let's be candid about it -- does have a bit of an identity crisis when it comes to the "constituent countries". The entity in question can flip in the course of a single sentence, without a flicker of awareness in the writer or speaker. But to follow the sources is the best available course. Wikipedia editors left to their own devices are even more oddball -- just look at the number of articles on "English" musical acts devoid of any source whatsoever as to their Englishness, and often wildly contradictory to their accents or indeed passports.

As best as I can tell, Kerr does seem to identify as Scottish from his statements, as well as having been born, grown up, and competed in the Scottish junior system. Of course we should also give due weight to his running under the "GBR" tag at global championships, as well as being US-based. ~2026-39276-06 (talk) 00:37, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

What teams he's competed on has no bearing on what his nationality is and as far as I'm aware there's no policy saying otherwise, as Skyeliam notes that's just a matter of which ones Scotland competes at as a country.

"Scottish" is the more precise description and the reader will understand from that he is also British, it seems the cleanest approach unless someone can find a source of him explicitly preferring one description or the other. JaggedHamster (talk) 09:29, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposition that “what teams he’s competed on has no bearing.” A Wikipedia essay that discusses the relevance of national teams for describing British sportsmen is literally linked earlier in this discussion!

What about the compromise “a British runner from Scotland?” This is the same compromise that the article for Pep Guardiola uses. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 12:15, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

What general principle does this "compromise" embody? That every English Olympian should be "a British athlete from England"? Or the Andy Murray rule that any sufficiently successful self-identified Scot is thereafter simply British? ~2026-39276-06 (talk) 15:18, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

The principle that he is notable for his participation in athletic competitions. As described in the essay shared previously, the team he usually represents in those athletic competitions is therefore the most notable nationality for the lead. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 22:37, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Given that the same essay also stresses the subject's self-identification, robust sourcing and not edit-warring to impose one's own preference, that seems selective at best, and given its comments about uniformity, closer to flying entirely in its face. Were that to be the decisive criterion, we'd have a policy or guideline saying "UK Olympians are to be described as 'British'" in terms. We very much do not. ~2026-39276-06 (talk) 02:07, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

There's no need for you to tie yourself in knots like that: He's Scottish and also British. It's more important that Scottish athletes are identified as such because not all of them necessarily support the union (this also goes for the other home nations). Of course, anyone who's Scottish is also British by definition, so why not use both? Why does it have to be either or? ~2026-28280-91 (talk) 22:02, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

Because cramming both into a single predicate phrase is clumsy, and reads like something no human being would ever utter. i.e. is written by an early AI bot, a committee, or George Lucas. If we can introduce both naturally -- e.g. by stating his representation country separate from his notional nationality, that's fair enough. Which is effectively what we have at present, but "Andy Murray rule" editors may feel that buries the lede. ~2026-39276-06 (talk) 00:56, 22 July 2026 (UTC)

It's a phrase that's encyclopedically accurate, which should be appropriate given that Wikipedia is supposed to an encyclopedia. I don't know whether you're from the UK, but describing people as "British and Scottish" is perfectly natural. If you were to insist on one, then in this case you should adopt "Scottish", because you can infer that that individual is also "British" by definition.

To put it another way, my dad was a republican and if he was still alive, he'd bristle at being referred to as "British" rather than "Scottish". Not all non-English people feel that way, but to simply refer them all as "British" removes a part of their identity, which for some of them is incredibly important. ~2026-28280-91 (talk) 18:50, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

Well as you might discern from my other comments on this page, I think it's pretty clear from his self-id and the pretty universal pattern in other such cases (the ironically almost eponymous exception being Andy Murray), I'd strongly favour "Scottish".

Yes indeed, if someone is asked about their identity or nationality, it would not be unusual for someone to say "I'm Northern Irish and British", or "I consider myself British and Scottish, in that order", or such like. But it reads very oddly as a driveby attributive in a biography. Nor, with all due regard to the NOUNIFORMITY principle, it's unclear how one might universalise such a practice, or even selectively extend it to other articles.

Given his representation of GBR in global and continental championships, I do think that should be made clear relatively early in the lead section. ~2026-39276-06 (talk) 20:56, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

Requested move 19 July 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 04:15, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

---

Josh Kerr (runner) → Josh Kerr – Clear primary topic since breaking the mile run world record. No need for disambiguation page. Sahaib (talk) 09:31, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

• Support as per nom. 162 etc. (talk) 16:45, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

Oppose - It is hard to say who is more important. I think it is better to leave it as it is now. MrCryptoNerd (talk) 06:31, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Support clearly the primary topic with regards to long-term significance and usage. Checking pageviews for each article shows this one has been getting significantly more traffic even prior to him breaking the world record. JaggedHamster (talk) 09:38, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

• Support with a hatnote to the Rugby player. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:06, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Support per nom. KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 13:42, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Support also, per nom. Appears the most notable of those in the disambig. Johnson524 17:13, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Support he's been the most notable Josh Kerr arguably for a long time, this world record further cements it. AdmiralAckbar1977 ^{talk contribs} 19:23, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Support per JaggedHamster.Seems pretty clearly the more notable. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:35, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

Support, per nom and AdmiralAckbar1977. He's been at ~100-300 pageviews per day even before breaking the record, while Kerr the rugby player has been at ~10-50. Zorblin (talk) 14:23, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

Slightly ambivalent. "Currently gets more clicks" is a fairly weak test given recency bias, not to mention us having only two such articles at present. Of course it must be said the mile record is a pretty big deal, so long-term significance seems likely. Holding off until the end of the athletics season wouldn't be a terrible idea. ~2026-39276-06 (talk) 16:58, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

Support per nom. He's also won two Olympic medals and a World Championship gold. He seems clearly more notable to me than the rugby league player. ~2026-28280-91 (talk) 22:09, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

• Support per nom, with hatnote.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:37, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

Support per nom. Caleb Stanford (talk) 05:37, 22 July 2026 (UTC)

• Support Far more notable of the two. Plectiscus (talk) 5:00, 22 July 2026 (UTC)

Support per nom. Stronach (talk) 09:07, 22 July 2026 (UTC)

• Looks like some mighty deep snow. Randy Kryn (talk) 09:46, 22 July 2026 (UTC)

  I've seen more blizzard-like conditions, but if someone were to do an early BOLD close I don't think they'd been in palpable danger of ending up hauled off to Arbcom. ~2026-39276-06 (talk) 05:00, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mile time in lead

The mile at 3:42.66 should be put back into the lead paragraph, it was taken out at least twice maybe more. Presently, readers of this article who are interested Kerr's accomplished have to go way down the page to find out Kerr's record time. Per the notability of the event in relationship to the subject, it seems lead paragraph worthy. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:37, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree, what we have is rather burying the lede. If a bald two-decimal-places string of digits makes some squeamish, a more prosey way of conveying the info would be to say 'first man to run under three minutes, forty-three seconds', which apparently also reflects his specific ambition for the run. ~2026-39276-06 (talk) 04:56, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. Track your hook after promotion. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected, closed by Narutolovehinata5 (talk) 05:33, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

( Comment or view )

( Article history links:

• Hicham El Guerrouj
• Josh Kerr (runner)

)

• ... that Hicham El Guerrouj set a mile world record of 3:43.13 in 1999 that stood for 27 years, until Josh Kerr broke it in 2026?

• Source: https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a73175937/josh-kerr-breaks-mile-world-record/

• • Reviewed:

5x expanded by KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 13:23, 24 July 2026 (UTC).

• @KnowledgeIsPower9281: Not eligible. Please read WP:DYKNEW.--Launchballer 20:07, 24 July 2026 (UTC)