Talk:Inverted Castle

Suggest move to Dracula's castle (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night)

There are some sources that are about the normal castle rather than the inverted one. The article could discuss the entire castle as a level - there doesn't seem to be any particular reason it needs to talk about the Inverted Castle only. . (I'm not sure if it should be Dracula's Castle or Dracula's castle, but I assume the latter.) ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if Inverted Castle was chosen for WP:NATDAB reasons? Your proposed name is...long. I'm indifferent, just giving some passing thoughts. Sergecross73 msg me 15:44, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind Dracula's Castle (Castlevania) but that would imply it was talking about its appearance in all the games, which the sources don't really talk about too much outside of SotN. Still, perhaps due to its reception with SotN it could support a more primary sourced coverage of how it pops up in each game. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

IDK, like some of the discussion involves the non-inverted castle, but by and large, the reception and significant coverage seems to hinge on the Inverted Castle aspect of the level. It's kind of like how Minus World, by necessity, needs to cover World 1-2 in order for it to make sense. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:38, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd argue the most substantive discussion, which I posted above, talks about the castle in general. Meanwhile, the only significant one talking about the Inverted Castle is the fairly short Game Informer article with only one observation about it.

The inversion of the castle is obviously a "woah" moment, but there's nothing incredibly special about it in particular besides the realization that the original's level design was impressively more complex since it supported being upside down.

I pretty much think this move is strictly necessary for the article to even be notable, because by itself, the Inverted Castle part isn't. The castle as a whole entity just squeaks by. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:30, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I mean, the articles that talk about the castle as the primary topic in the article center the Inverted Castle as the most important detail. The reason why the castle is notable is its inverted counterpart, and all reception deals with that aspect of the area. The legacy section is also exclusively based on the Inverted Castle. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:47, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Statements such as: The castle is draped in a strange fabric of baroque mainstays and Roman pomp. This is not a complaint but a compliment to the artists. The art style feels contemporary and holds up great, just as “The Prisons” and its population of miserable inmates remain timeless after 250 years. and ...here is a pervading sense that these structures are too large for any conceivable use. The vaults in “The Prisons” have no ceiling and stretch on seemingly forever. Likewise, Dracula’s castle is immense, even for a castle of decadent scale. and The parapets stand in unnatural arrangements. There are towers where the castle lacks a necessary foundation, floating in midair. The entire architectural body is sitting on top of an underground river. The whole thing is suggestive of an architect gone mad. Have nothing to do with the Inverted Castle at all and are general statements about the Dracula's Castle art and level design. Similarly, Beginning with Symphony of the Night, a castle was much more than just candles and stones. It was a vast maze that embodied an esoteric view of the individual’s journey through consciousness. While many would tread the main paths, only a few adepts would ascend to the highest tiers of completion percentage. is not about the Inverted Castle. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:33, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I didn't argue that the articles were exclusively about Inverted Castle, but the subject of, say, "Symphony of the Night was designed to work upside down" is centered around the Inverted Castle, even if the article also discusses Dracula's Castle. The regular castle is clearly the less notable aspect of this area. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 01:50, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Little participation, but no doubt a consensus to move. Seems reasonably explained. (non-admin closure) - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 23:28, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

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Inverted Castle → Dracula's Castle (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night)Dracula's Castle (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night) – As discussed above but unable to reach any form of consensus, I don't believe the Inverted Castle alone is independently notable, however, there are various other sources from Kill Screen and GamesRadar+ talking about the castle in general from Symphony of the Night that render it notable when the scope is widened slightly, hence the name change. The disambiguation may be long, but it reflects the fact that only the castle's SOTN incarnation is actually notable as a location and level. I am starting a move discussion to see if a specific consensus can be reached. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 15:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 20:42, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

If only the SOTN castle is notable then isn't Dracula's Castle (Castlevania) enough? WPscatter ^t/_c 06:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The castle exists in every Castlevania game, so I figured the disambiguation would specify further so as to avoid people adding facts about every incarnation of the castle in the entire series, which would inevitably happen if it was solely "Castlevania" as the disambiguation. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:04, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support original proposal. I agree with the argument in the nomination, and I think the longer disambiguation is a worthwhile protection against scope creep. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 7 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

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Dracula's Castle (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night) → Inverted Castle – The article is almost exclusively a discussion of the Inverted Castle. The entire Reception section is about the Inverted Castle, the Concept and creation section is almost exclusively about the Inverted Castle, and the claim in the previous discussion that it was not independently notable is strange given the fact that almost every source talks more about it than the regular castle. To me, the fact that the regular castle has only two sources that don't talk about the Inverted Castle makes the current title odd, considering that multiple sources identify the Inverted Castle as being responsible for elevating Symphony of a Night as a whole. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 14:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Per the previous discussion, the Inverted Castle is still non-notable. Sources generally agree that the overall level design of SOTN is what is good about it, not just the Inverted Castle. (It's literally just flipping the previous levels upside down, so I fail to see how it could really be that much better than what came before). ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 14:26, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
  • I do not remotely agree that the Inverted Castle is non-notable on its own. Identified as one of the greatest moments in gaming, identified by multiple sources as a major aspect of the game that improved it considerably, Game Informer article specifically about Inverted Castle, Jonathan Blow's commentary on it, etc. Also, the notion that the level design in general is what made SotN stand out, that's not supported by the citations. , , , , , these sources identify the Inverted Castle alone as elevating SotN, and I cannot find any sources in the article that claim the level design or original castle elevated SotN. Also, while you may not be able to appreciate what made it much better, the sources explicitly say why they think it is much better - the fact that the game is designed to be played upside down, the fact that they think it works, the fact that it was a cool secret is why they say it was elevated. It's not really relevant whether we can understand what makes the critics feel the way they do. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 14:47, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    Yeah, um... I don't agree with that stance at all. If you go to the last one from RPG Fan for example, it does say that "it is the Kojima-worthy opening and inverted castle that transforms my like for this game to outright respect," but then in the very next paragraph it also says "I was obliterating enemies left and right, taking in the sights and sounds of Dracula's Castle" and "it is Symphony of The Night's castle that brings me back, begging to explored again. It is impeccably designed, made magnificent by that beautiful 2D art." This seems to be cherry-picking to support your concept that the Inverted Castle is somehow more notable than the level as a whole. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 15:21, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    The Inverted Castle is Dracula's Castle though. You can find examples of Dracula's Castle being mentioned, even praised, but it is rarely more than an afterthought. For example, the source I just added praises the normal castle, but only to point out how much more interesting and important the Inverted Castle is. Furthermore, you seem to be treating the quotes as coming from the same person, when it's multiple people commenting. The first example is not talking about Dracula's Castle, it specifically refers to the opening, which is not at all reception for the regular castle. I may have missed some of the quotations in RPGFan, but it's not cherry picking to point out how many sources - a majority of sources touching upon what elevates SotN - attribute it to the Inverted Castle, either primarily or fully. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    The second quote is also not really of any value, as it seems like you're arguing that Dracula's Castle and Inverted Castle are separate concepts - and while it's possible they used it to refer to only the non-inverted castle, that would be OR on your part. At most, it tells us that the person thought that the first part of the castle was fun too, but it's not commentary comparable to critics arguing Inverted Castle helped elevate SotN as a whole. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    "Inverted Castle" does not refer to the castle as a whole, only the flipped-upside-down second castle level that is accessible from an optional secret true ending if you free Richter Belmont. See Reverse Castle on FANDOM. This article seems to have misidentified it as the entire castle, but that is not the case. Maybe that is from whence the confusion stems.

    So yes, I am arguing that they're separate concepts, or at least that the inverted one is a subtopic of the entire castle. When you're talking about the Inverted Castle, you aren't talking about the normal one. I don't think it would be considered OR to say as much. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

    My point is that Dracula's Castle does not exclude the Inverted Castle. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 02:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  • Also this source that talks about Inverted Castle in significant detail. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, see discussion above and previous RM. 162 etc. (talk) 17:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Video games has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I feel the overall twist is the most notable aspect, and trying to force it as a discussion about the castle as a whole creates a weird "undue" issue where a smaller element of discussion is tied to the larger reaction.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  If it were just about the twist, it wouldn't merit an article at all. If the choice is between a twist that isn't notable and a game level that is, I'll pick the one that supports an article. I'd have no problem with this move if I believed Inverted Castle on its own was notable. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  • I don't see that to be the case at all. Most of the citations are about the twist or provide significant coverage of the twist. Only two sources actually provide significant coverage of the regular castle itself. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 05:03, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 1 April 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) {{GearsDatapacks|talk|contribs}} 12:08, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

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Dracula's Castle (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night) → Inverted Castle – For this discussion, I will be seeking to get a broader consensus (previous discussions were based on two people in the first and five in the second. With that being said, I find it a little strange that the article is titled as "Dracula's Castle", but the article says almost nothing about the non-Inverted castle. The "Summary" section is exclusively about the Inverted Castle, "Concept and creation" is half Inverted Castle, and the "Reception" section is almost exclusively Inverted Castle (if not exclusively). To me, the fact that the significant coverage for the Inverted Castle, even disregarding the content that is not yet implemented, dwarfs SotN's Dracula's Castle is incredibly telling. This feels like making a coatrack article, like if we merged World 1-1 into a Mushroom Kingdom article or Water Temple into Hyrule, acting like the reception for them can count as reception for the series' worlds. In those scenarios, like Inverted Castle, it's taking the very evidently more notable subject and making it into a sub-aspect of a larger article that, without the Inverted Castle, is non-notable. Pinging all previous participants: @Kung Fu Man: @162 etc.: @Zxcvbnm: @ModernDayTrilobite: - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 00:43, 1 April 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 03:24, 9 April 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 11:08, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

Support Per Cukie's reasoning. This has been a long one coming I've been mulling over, and even considered proposing a few times myself.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:58, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose As in the last discussion, it's clear that as a whole, the castle as it appears in SOTN is notable with significant coverage in reliable sources, but Inverted Castle alone is not, or even if it was, it would be too much of a WP:OVERLAP for its own article. The stated "problem" with a lack of information is not grounds for a move, it is surmountable if additional information and reception were added. It doesn't seem like a good-faith attempt was made to add this information first. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:54, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
• Support. Focusing on what the contents of the article is at present, it is about the Inverted Castle. All discussion here is about the Inverted Castle. Anything regarding the article's contents and then if the Dracula's Castle name could be gone over later, but it is obvious to me what exists right now. A quick skim of the sources also suggests to me that Inverted Castle is a more common name anyways. That, combined with WP:NATDAB, and the case here seems clear. λ NegativeMP1 03:27, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

  If we're seriously basing a discussion that ought to be about immutable traits of the article on things that are subject to change, then sure, I'll go and add the information that is missing when I get the chance. I don't feel I should have to, but if it means it will render the logic being used here moot then so be it. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 03:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

  I feel like you do kind of have to put in at least a small amount of effort as part of your attempt to change the focus of the article, like I'd say that a good-faith effort to not worsen the article by creating a mismatch between name and content is really important. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 03:54, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

Comment: Am I understanding it correctly that the article was created as Inverted Castle in 2020, was dedicated to that alone for 3 years and never challenged about notability, was then moved by a requested move that had minimal participation with the justification being that the main map of the game is WP:NOTABLE while the inverted version of the map is not WP:NOTABLE on it's own, but in the 3 years following the move was completed nobody was actually able to update the article to reflect the new scope, leaving it dominated by a non-notable topic, and now this move request is saying that they should swap places because the supposedly non-notable topic is clearly more notable than the supposedly notable topic? I have to say you guys have managed to create quite the situation here.

If I've got all of that right I suppose the question that should be deciding the outcome of this is if the article was not updated after the change of scope due to nobody being bothered to do it or because nobody was capable of doing it. Which of these two do you good folks think is more accurate? Or have I missed the mark entirely here? ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 10:04, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

I believe it's possible to update it to be more about Dracula's Castle from SotN, but it would either result in the article focusing less on Inverted Castle despite the sourcing being there, or the article still having an outsized focus on the Inverted Castle. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:27, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

I mean looking at the article that was just posted in the comment below me I feel like it would make sense for Inverted Castle to be an article on its' own. There doesn't seem to be anything that makes the normal castle stand out as a video game map enough for it to have it's own article rather than being covered on the article for the game itself, but Inverted Castle appears to be very significant on it's own. If it wasn't for Inverted Castle, would there be a separate article for the map of this game? I doubt it. ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 18:23, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

I would agree with this assessment. In addition to what's present in the article, I also found this paper that talks extensively about the Inverted Castle and themes it represents: Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:55, 7 April 2026 (UTC)

Support the move. ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 01:37, 8 April 2026 (UTC)

• Support. A few years have passed since I commented on the other RM; looking back over the article and spot-checking its sourcing, I disagree with my 2023 self and am inclined to support the "Inverted Castle" title after all. The presence and merits of the Inverted Castle seem to have received much more RS coverage than Dracula's Castle more broadly; even sources like , which discuss the game in general, tend to discuss the overall level design solely in passing but devote significant space and commentary to the Inverted Castle and the writer's opinions about it. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:06, 2 April 2026 (UTC)
• Note While it's not a massive amount, I made a start at adding reception for the base castle. Already it's clear that in a lot of the sources that discuss the Inverted Castle there is also discussion about the normal one. I'm still convinced that the castle as a whole is notable, and calling it solely "Inverted Castle" does not make sense. A lot of the sources about Inverted Castle are just listicles with "cool gaming moments" or the like, not substantial. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:28, 7 April 2026 (UTC)

  I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense for an article that is primarily talking about the Inverted Castle to be titled Inverted Castle as a result. As far as significant coverage, Inverted Castle currently has the following: , "Space and place as expressive categories in videogames", , , , and . While other sources in the article are lists, I would consider it superior to have adequate sigcov to demonstrate notability plus having these lists, as opposed to the uninverted castle, which has far less. The legacy section is also only about the Inverted Castle, it should be noted. There is also this source, which talks extensively about the Inverted Castle and what it represents: Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:54, 7 April 2026 (UTC)

  Also , where game designer Zack Manko identifies the Inverted Castle, particularly the discovery of it and the sense of achievement he felt, as his favorite gaming memory. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:03, 7 April 2026 (UTC)

• Support based on the rationales and observations made by the nom, Negative and Triolobite. Upon my own analysis, with the exception of the concept section (which in itself is quite small and still talks about the Inverted Castle a decent amount), this article is almost exclusively about the Inverted Castle. Even with the handful of lists on this article, as Cukie mentioned they are supplementary to the other sources that are supplying SIGCOV. I believe this to be a standalone subject and unless the improvements change the overall content of the article, I can't in good conscience say this should be labelled an article about Dracula's Castle. CaptainGalaxy 22:51, 7 April 2026 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting for further discussion. While most editors support this move, I'm not willing to close the discussion without a single relist given the past two discussions found a consensus for "Dracula's Castle". BilledMammal (talk) 03:24, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Video games has been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 11:07, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There looks like consensus for a move; however, given the history of moves of this page, I'm giving this another relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, TarnishedPath^talk 11:08, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

• Support per nom, Maltazarian, and CaptainGalaxy.

Whipmywillows (talk) 17:21, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.