Talk:Intersectionality/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

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Potential source to integrate - Sidanius

The Theory of Gendered Prejudice: A Social Dominance and Intersectionalist Perspective Jim Sidanius, Sa-kiera T. J. Hudson, Gregory Davis, and Robin Bergh The Oxford Handbook of Behavioral Political Science Edited by Alex Mintz and Lesley Terris, DOI: 10.1093/oxfordhb/9780190634131.013.11 "This chapter argues that while intersectionalist and critical race theorists have qualitatively (and occasionally quantitatively) drawn attention to the fact that the racial and gender dimensions of oppression are both interactively implicated in the maintenance of group-based inequality, a fully satisfactory empirical analysis of the dynamics of racism and sexism has yet to be achieved. Using the theoretical frameworks of evolutionary psychology and social dominance theory (SDT), this chapter offers an alternative understanding of the intersectional entanglement of racism and sexism. This chapter introduces the theory of gendered prejudice, a derivative of SDT, and posits that a satisfactory account of racism, or what social dominance theorists generalize as “arbitrary-set” oppression, is a deeply gendered phenomenon." I don't have time to integrate this right now, but am posting here to remind myself and in the hopes that someone else might beat me to it. Pengortm (talk) 00:07, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Suggest to remove (or mostly remove) the chatty and unsupported last part of the "Historical background"

The essayist of the last part of the "Historical background" style is not to going to cut it on wikipedia, as per WP:NOTESSAY --Thorseth (talk) 05:26, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thorseth: this is why it's tagged with "This below part is written like a personal reflection, personal essay, or argumentative essay". However, as it seems to be summarising the work of an academic, Claudia Jones, the content could likely be repurposed into something encyclopedic, which would likely be better than removal. However, I wouldn't object to outright removal either. — Bilorv (talk) 16:44, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

"Psychology"

I think the article is not neutral in its formulation in the way it tends to oppose what psychologist discovers and intersectionnality. It is true gay black men can be seen as a positive more positive than black men. Only what intersectionality points out is that this positivation has not a duration nor a long term efficacity. It is a "fetichization". Also intersectionality perfectly know people tend to favorize the status quo that's the main thing of it. It is my first review i dont know if I should argue longer or if I do right but here is my view HarpoIV (talk) 17:32, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi HarpoIV and welcome to Wikipedia! What we do here is edit, not review. If you see a problem, fix it yourself. We don't have the volunteer labour to implement all the requests people make with the intention that someone else should do it.

Wikipedia is based on reliable sources so an alarm bell in your comment is that you don't cite any. You seem to be arguing based on your own experience or reasoning. This isn't what an encyclopedia does. We document the experiences of others and the reasoning of experts, by summarising reliable sources.

If you've read sources that are relevant to the topic, dive in and add them in the relevant sections of the article, with short summaries of their key points. If you want to improve what the article already says, read the existing sources given and rewrite the summaries to stick more accurately to what they say.

When you make bold edits, sometimes you get reverted. That's when you turn to the talk page: to discuss with other volunteers about your changes, whether they fit the policies and guidelines we operate by, or whether they address the issues with the article. — Bilorv (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

How intersectionality is playing out in practice

I'm interesting in this topic. This paper looks cool - but I couldn't get acccess: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0160597620988591?journalCode=hasa

Talpedia (talk) 20:40, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

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synthesis of references

For instance, black men are stereotypically perceived as violent, which may be a disadvantage in police interactions, but also as physically attractive, which may be advantageous in romantic situations.

none of these sources make any suggestion that criminality is attractive or advantageous in romantic situations, for black males or anyone else.

the Lewis studies also say nothing about intersectionality; words like "crime" or "violence" occur nowhere in them.

Pedulla (2014) does not say that black males are advantaged romantically by criminal stereotypes. His study has nothing to do with attractiveness or romance. what he says is that black males are disadvantaged by their stereotype of criminality, and that gay black men are able to transcend this disadvantage by being perceived as harmless, resulting in increased employment opportunities.

This is the conclusion of Pedulla (2014) which is linked here. anyone can bypass the paywall at www.sci-hub.se:

While extant research has explored in significant depth the ways that black men and gay men face discrimination in the labor market, less is known about how these marginalized social categories combine with one another. Building on insights from the SCM and the BIAS map, ‘‘intersectionality’’ research, and the literature on counterstereotypical information, I argue that the stereotypes associated with gay men (i.e., being effeminate) can counteract the negative stereotypes that whites often have about black men as being threatening, criminal, and violent. In turn, I expect that gay black men will fare better than straight black men when they are evaluated by whites in the job application process. The empirical findings provide support for this claim. While I find evidence of discrimination against gay white men, compared to straight white men, the effects of being gay differ by race. When I examine the evaluations of the black male applicants in the experiment, I find evidence that the gay black applicants receive higher salary recommendations than the straight black applicants. I also find support for the claim that variation in the perceived threatening nature of the gay and straight black applicants assists in accounting for this difference.

2603:8080:2C00:1E00:9557:D38D:359C:E140 (talk) 15:28, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

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Empirical evidence ...?

Can someone please make an effort to explain what seems to be an almost complete lack of empirical evidence for these theories? Words like "factors" are used multiple times seemingly completely divorced from any idea about mathematical factors which would describe actual attributes or relations between multiple attributes. Are these theories able to predict that Asian women in America now out-earn white men, or that African immigrants to the US seem to do better than non-immigrants with the same skin color? Do the theories actually predict effects that are beyond what a multivariate statistics would show as multiple compiled effects, or is the core of the argument that multivariate statistics should always be used when analyzing privilege and discrimination? Or do the theories not hold any predictive power at all, since this is covered so sparsly? AndersThorseth (talk) 21:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

It might be good to add a section on empirical confirmation of the theory - should a literature that explicitly addresses this exists. You can sort of express the concept of intersetionality mathematical as the inclusion of interaction terms RACE * GENDER * STATUS in a simple statistical model, which is to some degree "testable" and a thing that people do in statis. I suspect people who work on this theory would claim other evidence to support their theory besides statistical evidence - such as the ability to explain interactions qualitiatively in a broad range of settings. But let me avoid engaging in too much WP:FORUM, and actually ee if we can find sources to add to the article Talpedia (talk) 09:27, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, its really good feedback. I will see what I can find also, regarding statistics. AndersThorseth (talk) 20:29, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@AndersThorseth: Just a warning about finding sources because I don't want you to go looking for sources and then have people dislike them. Of course you are free to ignore me! Directly mentioning "intersectionality" and being in a journal related to intersectionanlity and relatively recent and a secondar sourcey would be a win. I might actually target etymology because there is a bunch of mathematic language like "matrix of oppression" entering into the field. The other place you might find this sort of stuff is if statistical evidence for intersectional theories. Some of the stuff that intersectionality is difficult to quantify (sometimes I suspect "deliberately" in the sense that humanities live where science cannot). It'd be interesting if there was evidence for different interaction effects in different situationns or with different groups. One of the words that I saw in some of the literature for intersectionlity was "additive" which when mapped into statistics is to assert the absence of this "intneractive term". My suspicious as with most theories is that they are "sort of truth some of the time" rather than fully true of false - the question is always the bounds. Talpedia (talk) 21:04, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

In 2022 a paper was published in Entropy that attempted to do exactly that: it proposed a formal interpretation of intersectionality in the context of information theory and uses the idea of partial information decomposition. Briefly, when considering the information about an outcome (say, income) that is disclosed by the joint state of an individual's race and sex, intersectionality was identified with that component of the information that can only be learned when race and sex are known together (i.e. statistical synergy). Using partial information decomposition, it is possible to partial out this synergistic information from redundant and unique information.

Varley, T. F., & Kaminski, P. (2022). Untangling Synergistic Effects of Intersecting Social Identities with Partial Information Decomposition. Entropy, 24(10), Article 10. https://doi.org/10.3390/e24101387 2601:801:2:3FF0:0:0:0:393D (talk) 21:23, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Intersectionality& Existentialism

1.intersectional analysis of Celestial Bodies by Jokha Alharthi. 2.Elements of existentialism in Celestial Bodies. 42.111.225.113 (talk) 02:06, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Intersectionality

what are the three approaches of intersectionality? 42.111.225.113 (talk) 02:07, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

This page is for discussion regarding the content of the article, not to get answers for a school assignment. Read the article, you may find your answer there. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 06:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

7 October 2023

The section title says it all.  This article is a word salad conveying almost no useful information.  It mostly reads like original research of someone who has smoked too many joints.

216.152.18.132 (talk) 06:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Your comment just says to me "I don't understand enough of terminology to understanding the article and am pretending it is imposible to understand", but sure less jargon is good. Talpedia 07:03, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

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Holistic approch to equality

A section or the inclusion incorporating a holistic approch to equality should be added. Introducing historical references. Foristslow (talk) 02:16, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Why? What does a holistic approach to equality have to do with the subject of the article? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Speciesism

I have reverted the new speciesism content. Is there a reliable source that shows it plays a meaningful role in groups' and individuals' social and political identities? - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 03:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

If you go to the page of the original article. I think that you will find everything that you need there. Foristslow (talk) 05:07, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. And we already have an "Intersectionality in Animal, Human and Familial Violence" section in the Intersectionality article. A separate section on speciesism seems too far from the focus of this article. Maybe drop the "people who support animal exploitation also tend to have intersectional bias" thought into the Psychology section? - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 18:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I just saw another editor's edit summary referring to WP:COATRACK. That's my concern. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 18:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

A discussion of speciesism seems off-topic for this article, despite the fact that some sources used for speciesism and critical animal studies use an intersectional framework. That by itself only means that intersectionality is a relevant topic in discussions of speciesism, not vice versa. I'm not seeing much in the disputed material relevant to intersecting and overlapping social identities. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 18:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The term intersectionality is broad, but I do agree with what has been said about the major heading of speciesism, I can include a sub heading under the section that I created Intersectionality in Animal, Human and Familial Violence" (Personal attack removed) Foristslow (talk) 23:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

This is very FRINGE and not part of any mainstream discourse around intersectionality afaik. It does not warrant inclusion EvergreenFir (talk) 05:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

understand, here is a link to a paper.

https://www.academia.edu/37256448/Intersectionality_and_Speciesism

https://epress.lib.uts.edu.au/student-journals/index.php/NESAIS/article/view/1469/1582 Foristslow (talk) 08:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I have not needed to go to the dark web for these two papers, first page of google when you search speciesim and intersectionality, there seems to be quite a lot to warrant this subsection. Foristslow (talk) 08:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

The first paper appears to be a student essay, which is not a reliable source. The author is listed as a graduate student. The second paper is from a journal for "emerging scholars in Australian indigenous studies", which is a fairly niche topic. Once again, the source is using an intersectional framework to discuss issues of speciesism and animal rights. That doesn't make it particularly relevant to an article about intersectionality itself.

Typing a combination of keywords into a search engine will return sources that use both; that doesn't mean that those sources are authoritative or that the keywords are particularly related to one another. The best practice is to find the most reliable sources on the topic of the article and then summarize what they say; otherwise you may end up working backwards from the assumption that a given term or topic is relevant, which may or may not be true. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC) edited 16:32, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

A couple papers does not make this any less FRINGE. Is it covered in any secondary or tertiary sources? EvergreenFir (talk) 16:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, you've added -

To the researchers, this is analogous to racism — the fallacious belief that races exist as branches on the tree of life, and that some species, races even lineages are superior to others .Some have said this has led to prioritizing humans and human culture over everything else and accepting that ecosystems and life within them should be destroyed to make way for humans.

First question, what is "this"? - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 03:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

References

holistic approch to equality Foristslow (talk) 02:13, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Is this an answer to my "this" question? - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 06:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Apologies that was a typo. Thanks for your time and input. I will have a look at your suggestions and will respond soon. Thankyou again Foristslow (talk) 10:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence of that paragraph, minus the words "species" and "lineages", was lifted directly from UC Berkeley's website. I've removed the copyright violation, but the material (a comparison between speciesism and racism) still seems off-topic in this article. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

("still seems off-topic in this article" Now that the section has been re-written, that is my question as well. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 17:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC))

Hello, I supplied a reference from Jonathan birch, Nature magazine. What do you think of that article. Foristslow (talk) 02:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is another Australia article that may be of interest https://epress.lib.uts.edu.au/student-journals/index.php/NESAIS/article/view/1469 Foristslow (talk) 02:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

As I (and now others) have stated, the review of Peter Singer's book Animal Liberation Now seems off-topic. I already responded to the Emerging Scholars in Australian Indigenous Studies journal article above. Maybe it would be more helpful to explain why this material is relevant to an article on intersectionality. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I missed that entry it seems that your comment went unnoticed by myself, I don't normally answer a question with a question in risk of being talked the wrong way but this time it seems to be appropriate. Can you outline the parameters of what you are looking for as the content for this article Intersectionality.Thankyou. Foristslow (talk) 08:17, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• The parameters we are discussing is that the content should be on topic in relation Intersectionality and fit within an encyclopedia article.

Topic. This article is about "a sociological analytical framework for understanding how groups' and individuals' social and political identities result in unique combinations of discrimination and privilege." The "Speciesism, culture and ecology" section seems off topic because it makes no reference to Intersectionality whatsoever.

Fit. The article gives examples - not a complete list - of Intersectionality factors: "gender, caste, sex, race, ethnicity, class, sexuality, religion, disability, height, age, and weight." If the article contained comparisons of each factor (named and unnamed) to each other factor it would be way too long. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thankyou for your time and efforts. Make alterations as you deem fit. If you see this inclusion has value keep it, if not remove it. Foristslow (talk) 18:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

It has value, but not enough. I'm removing it.

Thank you for engaging in this discussion with an open mind. I wish more editors did that. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

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Updates and reorganisation

So, there was a lot of repeated info and random insertion of text in strange places. I've gone through and made a series of edits to condense material and reorganise it. I think it's in a much better state now, although it still needs globalising more generally.

Anyone have any thoughts on where to go next to improve this? Or any other feedback? Lewisguile (talk) 19:29, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

adding to the healthcare section under applications

There is a lot more information that could be added to this section and with more detail. The current section begins to scratch the surface of healthcare and intersectionality, but much more history could be discussed.

• Can discuss maternal mortality and racial disparities
  • Medical racism results in Black women experiencing higher rates of pregnancy-related deaths, even after controlling for socioeconomic status so can discuss that
  • Role of implicit bias among healthcare providers in pain management and medical decision-making (lime studies showing that Black patients’ pain is often underestimated)
• Social determinants of health!
  • Elaborate on how factors like housing, employment, food security, and environmental racism impact health outcomes through an intersectional lens
  • Discuss the role of climate change and environmental pollution, which disproportionately affect marginalized communities
• Medical experimentation
  • Tuskegee syphilis study, forced sterilization of of Indigenous and Latina women
  • Mention how medical research often excludes people of color and women, leading to treatment disparities
• Policy in healthcare reform
  • Orgs working towards intersectional health justice like SisterSong, The National Black Women’s Reproductive Justice Agenda, and The Disability Justice Collective

Ananyamunjal (talk) 20:15, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

This all seems sensible enough. So long as you can use reliable sources for all of it, I can't see anyone complaining. Go ahead and add the text you'd like to see in there, and I'm happy to give it the once-over if you'd like a second set of eyes on it. Lewisguile (talk) 14:37, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Adding to representational intersectionality sub-section

I want to begin by defining the term much more succinctly—drawing from Crenshaw’s own explanation—then fleshing out sub-sections with evidence/examples/sources (e.g., “Film & Television,” “Advertising and Marketing,” “News Media”) showing how intersecting identities are distorted or erased in each field. I want to use both scholarly works (like those above) and real-world examples (e.g., stereotypical characters in popular shows, ad campaigns that tokenize race and gender) to balance theoretical grounding and its manifestations.

Definition

Representational intersectionality is the study of how intersecting identities (e.g., race, gender, class, sexuality) are depicted in cultural narratives and media, creating or reinforcing overlapping forms of marginalization. This concept, introduced by Kimberlé Crenshaw, highlights that stereotypical or one-dimensional portrayals in popular culture often perpetuate harm against groups with multiple marginalized identities. Below are a few areas where representational intersectionality appears most clearly, alongside brief examples of relevant scholarship that could be cited to strengthen a Wikipedia section on this topic.

1. Film and Television Tropes

• Key Issue: Black, Latina, and Asian women are frequently constrained to narrow portrayals—hypersexualized, “sassy,” or docile—that erase the complexity of their intersecting identities. These patterns uphold intersecting stereotypes (racist, sexist, classist) and can shape societal attitudes or even violence against women of color.
• Sources to Cite:
  1. Crenshaw, Kimberlé (1991). “Mapping the Margins: Intersectionality, Identity Politics, and Violence Against Women of Color.” Stanford Law Review 43(6): 1241–1299.
     • Explains how one-dimensional media images can feed into real-world biases and violence.
  2. hooks, bell (1992). Black Looks: Race and Representation. Boston: South End Press.
     • Offers a critical examination of the “pornographic myth” of Black female sexuality and how it manifests in film and TV.

These works show that limiting women of color to singular characteristics (e.g., “fiery Latina,” “submissive Asian,” “angry Black woman”) perpetuates oppressive social norms that conflate racialized and gendered stereotypes—core to representational intersectionality.

2. Advertising and Marketing Campaigns

• Key Issue: Advertisements often rely on “exotic” or “hyper-feminine” imagery for certain racial groups, reinforcing stereotypes about women of color as commodities or objects of consumption. Such portrayals can perpetuate existing hierarchies of gender, race, and class.
• Sources to Cite:
  1. Collins, Patricia Hill (2000). Black Feminist Thought: Knowledge, Consciousness, and the Politics of Empowerment. 2nd ed. New York: Routledge.
     • Discusses “controlling images” of Black women and how marketing industries exploit these stereotypes for profit.
  2. Matsuda, Mari J. (1993). Words That Wound: Critical Race Theory, Assaultive Speech, and the First Amendment. Boulder, CO: Westview Press.
     • Though focused on speech, Matsuda’s analysis of racialized images can apply to the visual language of advertising, illustrating how representations can wound marginalized groups.

A discussion of advertising shows how everyday media (from commercials to print ads) shapes public perception and entrenches intersecting stigmas.

3. News Coverage and Journalism

• Key Issue: News outlets often frame stories involving women of color through sensational or stereotypical lenses. Such coverage can ignore socioeconomic contexts or broader structural inequalities, effectively “flattening” the narrative of complex identities.
• Sources to Cite:
  1. Crenshaw, Kimberlé (1989). “Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex.” University of Chicago Legal Forum 1989 (1): 139–167.
     • Explores how legal and societal discourses fail to capture the distinct experiences of Black women, an argument extendable to media reporting.
  2. Miyazato, Chelsee (2016). “Intersectional Feminism 101.” Athena Talks on Medium.
     • Though less academic, this succinct piece gives a more contemporary snapshot of how intersecting oppressions appear in the digital/news sphere.

This part is of special contemporary relevance. I want to emphasize how news coverage can perpetuate biases—e.g., using tropes about immigrants, single mothers, or “criminality”—and thus shape broader perceptions of marginalized communities. Yz1141 (talk) 17:27, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Adding updates regarding disability particularly the “Research” and “political intersectionality/political” sections

I believe there can be updates to the research section. Currently, the page reports that there was not much research when it came to applying an intersectionality lens to people who suffer from oppression. There is research on this topic. For example, researchers have worked on exploring the intersectionality of gender, disability, and poverty in South African qualitatively. Another article shares its exploration of intersectionality among disability, gender, race, and age from data in National Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) Research Project. They have discovered that there are specific clusters of groups that are particularly at high risk of experiencing disability harassment. These examples can show and update this section that there is research that is applying intersectionality lens including the theme of disability to research literature.

Also the current political intersectionality section does not address anything global when it come to politics or laws that apply an intersectional lens and disability. An article does analyze current global human rights with an intersectionality lens focusing on disabled people belonging to racial or ethnic minorities, disabled women, and disabled children. There are significant limitations and a lack of human rights for these groups according to the article. I think adding an international view would benefit the page and show what the status and application intersectionality and disability can have on an international political stage.  

Zjl10 (talk) 17:41, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Race, Gender, and Medicine

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Venn diagram

A three-set Venn diagram

The article is illustrated with a four-set Venn diagram. From a mathematical point of view I love this diagram; too few people are aware how to show all 16 combinations of four sets in a Venn diagram! However, this is widely beside the point in this article. A three-set Venn diagram like this one would make the point just as well - and that means, it would make it far better, as far more people would be familiar with it. Nø (talk) 17:24, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

Actually, showing a Venn diagram that people are less familiar with, and is just as correct, would give them something new to take in, and therefore is better, in my opinion. Lova Falk (talk) 05:41, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Wikipedia is educational (among other things), but we should not aim at teaching a rather exotic mathematical thing is an article on a sociological subject to which it is irrelevant. What I'm describing as exotic and irrelevant is not four sets intersecting, as such, but it is representing this in a Venn diagram. It's not rocket science, you might say, but it is not well known either, even among the mathematically literate. The point the diagram is meant to make, in relation to the subject matter, is made just as clearly with a three-set Venn diagram, which will be way more familiar to a vast majority of readers. Nø (talk) 20:53, 17 September 2025 (UTC)

I agree, readers are not served by the more complex and less recognizable Venn diagram. In the worst case, the presence of a novel, colorful, abstract shape could be misinterpreted literally as an emblem/logo/symbol for the concept of intersectionality. A commonly used visual is an Euler diagram showing overlapping circles/ellipses/stadiums annotated with examples of factors of privilege/discrimination (gender, race, class, sexuality, disability, to pick five) would be helpful to readers. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 02:26, 18 September 2025 (UTC)

I agree that a diagram with specific examples of factors could make sense, but on the other hand, the idea of intersectionality is not limited to any specific factors. For now, I'll replace the diagram with the three-set generic Venn diagram. Nø (talk) 07:06, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough, you have an ally. 🙂 Lova Falk (talk) 12:43, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Women in Politics

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Response: Political

Hi. I noticed a problem with the Political section of the Repsonses section. It gives undue weight to critism of intersectionality. WP:NPOV. PipFowler (talk) 17:50, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Fixit. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 22:13, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

okie dokie PipFowler (talk) 22:15, 15 November 2025 (UTC)