Talk:Iliad

Regarding the Epic Cycle

This article states that the Iliad is "a central part of the Epic Cycle," however, the article on the Epic Cycle states that it "is more often used to specify the non-Homeric poems as distinct from the Homeric ones." Thus the two articles seem to contradict each other. Rdvaldesdapena (talk) 16:49, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

The Illiad's date of composition should be revised to be mid 7th century bce

First More recent Scholarship questions the 8th century bce dates and puts the Illiad in the 660's/640's Bce and the Odyssey in the 630's/620's Bce or even later.

The Scholars notably include: Martin Litchfield West,Van Wees and Peter Gainsford/The Kiwi Hellenist) (who is an academic with a youtube channel and an entire blog dedicated to Homeric Authorship) as well as many other scholars.

The reasons why a 7th century date is close to universally accepted in 2026 (all the 8th century or earlier dates that are shown in mass media are based on circular logic):

1----the gear in the text is iron age gear (as in typical hoplite shields, precursors to corinthian helmets etc) the few weapons that are bronze age like chariots do not function like how actual Mycenaen chariots functioned or can simply be explained as false archaism's as Gainsford puts it-----

2----The Illiad appears to allude to Saite Egypt and the Greek Mercenaries there (not 1177 Bce), The 663 bce siege of Thebes is also very likely referenced as well.

3------the illiad is not featured in solidly dated artistic depictions until the late 7th century bce and all the cultural traits of the Illiad match more with later Lyric poems from the mid 7th century bce than even Hesiod which Gainsford and Litchfield date earlier to c. 700 bce.

4------The material culture described in the Illiad matches the Orientalizing period (680-575 bce), there are Phoenicians very prominantly present even though prior to 1000 bce when the poem is set they did not exist, the Hittites do not exist in the Illiad and the Khettioi are likely a tribe of Phrygians, Greek art in the text matches exuberant 7th century oriental influences, Phoenician type metal bowls which only started appearing around 675 bce also appear adding yet more anachronism's.

5-----The Illiad's list of ships is more a folk geographic text intended to reverse various contradictory migration accounts of the various greek groups and blend them together to create a reconstructed map of greece from that time.

6------Some of the Placenames that people think give credence to a earlier Illiad were inhabited long after the Bronze age (for instance Mycenae was a city that fought at Thermopylae and Herodotus mentions it as a current habitation, same for Pylos, Knossos and Thebes plus Olympia and Argos which are mentioned did not exist until the late 8th century bce

7--------The language of the text matches Ionic Greek of the 7th century bce not Mycenaen Greek or even 8th century bce Ionic.

8--------that Homeric Heroic Virtues , administation and even Goverment match 7th century realities.

9-------There might be references to greek colonies in Magna Graecia and other western lands, (also Colchis a region that did not exist pre 650 bce being in the Odyssey also clearly put a 7th century bce date on that text as well) putting a bronze age origin firmly to bed for the Odyssey at least.

10------Troy was inhabited in the 7th century bce and for a millenium afterwards as a Greek City only being abandoned around 500 CE.

11------The Text is a reflection of the late 8th/early 7th century bce Aeolian colonization of Illios and fights against the local native population for control of the city.

12----Classical Greeks did not know when troy fell and guestimated dates that range from 1334 bce to 1194 bce thus implying they knew very little about that period they also put the fall of Troy in a month of the classical Attic Calendar.

13-------Iron is literally mentioned as a common material, like come on how more direct can you be. — Iliad 23.826–835

14-----The Trojans which were likely Luwian speaking are Greeks in the text and while Bronze sources do have greeks in troy like a certain Alaksandus most rulers of Troy identified in Hittite sources had Luwian names

Conclusion all the evidence put a 7th century bce date particularly 660/640 bce as borderline confirmed plus these studies have found almost 0 Bronze age remants in the text and put the Trojan war away from Legend and into Myth here is a quote from Kiwi Hellenist's Blog that summarised these points well:

1. there is inadequate evidence to corroborate the historicity of the Trojan War legend;
2. arguments in favour of historicity often give the Trojan War special treatment, while happily being sceptical about other legends like Heracles’ wars — not to mention much more recent ‘events’ like the Lelantine War (supposedly ca. 700 BCE) and the First Sacred War (supposedly ca. 600–575 BCE);
3. when looking for the historical context of the Trojan War legend, it makes much more sense to look at a more proximate setting, namely Greek colonisation of the Troad in the 8th century BCE. https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-trojan-war-2-homer.html

Citations:

---

Van Wees, Hans. “The Homeric Way of War: The ‘Iliad’ and the Hoplite Phalanx (II).” Greece & Rome 41, no. 2 (1994): 131–55. http://www.jstor.org/stable/643010.

West, Martin L. "The Date of the Iliad." Museum Helveticum 52, no. 4 (1995): 203–219.

The Making of the Iliad: Disquisition and Analytical Commentary. Oxford: Oxford University Press 2011 441 pp

GAINSFORD, PETER. (2012). Sibling terminology in Homer: problems with κασίγνητος and ἀδελφεός. The Classical Quarterly (New Series). 62. 10.1017/S0009838812000055.

M. L. West, The Making of the Iliad: Disquisition and Analytical Commentary (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2011). American Journal of Philology 133 (2012) 232-237.

Graziosi, Barbara. (2003). Inventing Homer: The Early Reception of Epic. The Journal of Hellenic Studies. 10.2307/3246273.

West, M. L. (December 2011). "The Homeric Question Today". Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society. 155 (4). Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: American Philosophical Society: 383–393. JSTOR 23208780.

Dalby, Andrew. "Homer's Enemies: Lyric and Epic in the Seventh Century." Archaic Greece: New Approaches and New Evidence, edited by M. Fisher, n.p., 1998 Theopedias (talk) 19:36, 4 January 2026 (UTC)

Patriarchy as a theme

Note: There is a similar discussion ongoing at Talk:Odyssey. Paul August ☎ 11:49, 20 May 2026 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be added? I daresay it's a subject that has received extensive treatment, at this point. Mevsherd (talk) 02:04, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

I restored this deleted text. Please discuss in a collaborative way before deleting large amounts of referenced material.

• Lattimore: "Once my kinsman, slut that I am. Did this ever happen?"
• Fagles: "...and he used to be my kinsman, whore that I am! There was a world ... or was it all a dream?"
• Rieu: "...my brother-in-law once, slut that I am – unless all that was a dream."

In contrast, two more recent translations, both by women, are more literal and consistent across genders:[20][21]

• Alexander (2015): "He was my brother-in-law, dog-faced as I am—if that ever happened."
• Wilson (2023): "...his brother, the former husband of my dog-face self—if any of these things took place at all."

(please sign your contributions) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mevsherd (talk • contribs) 00:35, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

I have questioned those additions before, to which you responded by removing the clarification requests. It's disingenuous now to complain about removal of material that reeks of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. I strongly agree with User:AirshipJungleman29 who repositioned this paragraph from a wholly inappropriate 1st to last. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:02, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

Since I was pinged: first sentence fails verification, the second is uncited, the fourth is cited to a non-reliable source, leaving only the third sentence as well-written. Then you have two more paragraphs which misrepresent Mukherjee in various ways while not being particularly concise with lengthy, largely unnecessary quotes. We finish up with a lengthy quote that could easily be paraphrased. Finally, this whole section is inserted at the beginning of the “Themes” section, clearly indicating that it is the oldest and most analysed aspect of the Iliad ... right? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:29, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

I think I addressed those in my edit summarized as " add clarification," and maybe other edits. I admit, I'm not used to looking in different places for communication from other editors. I never leave notes like that, and I'm not sure how to do it, so I don't look for them. I just use the Talk tab.

I moved the sub-section to the bottom of the section. Mevsherd (talk) 15:31, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

I will not comment, just now, on the concerns other editors have expressed, other than to say I share them. I do have one issue I would like to discuss. It seems to me that at least one of the things this new section is trying to cover is the treatment of Women in the Iliad (it also seems to be considering the different . This seems important and should be covered somewhere in the article. However this topic is not one of the recognized theme in the Iliad. So whatever else is decided here, unless anyone has strong objections, I intend to move this section out from under "Themes" and rename it to "Treatment of Women"(?). Paul August ☎ 16:28, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

It's a contemporary theme, rather than a traditional one. And, probably, one perceived mainly by readers and critics, rather than the author.

I do want to note, since there seem to be OR concerns, that there is significant media coverage of the differences between how men and women have translated the work, especially in the description of female characters. It is discussed in many reliable sources. Mevsherd (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

Is that a theme? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:30, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

Yes it may well be a contemporary theme, it is not therefore a theme found in the Iliad itself. Paul August ☎ 00:46, 17 May 2026 (UTC)

As Mevsherd, the author of the disputed section, now titled "Treatment of women", mentioned, that section deals with differences between how men and women have translated the work, the more natural place for it would be in English translations of Homer § Iliad § 21st century. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:34, 17 May 2026 (UTC)

I'm starting to wonder if people have read the article and the Iliad.

1. Gender is a theme found in the work by contemporary critics, authors, and reviewers. There are 100s of reliable sources for that, several in the section. I don't understand Paul August's comment "this topic is not one of the recognized theme in the Iliad." It is very recognized. In contrast, the "recognized themes" of Heroism and Time in this article are completely unreferenced.

2. Regarding Michael Bednarek's suggestion that the discussion of translations belongs in a different article: This article already has a Translations section, and it is more developed that the one Bednarek suggested (which is mostly lists).

The general antipathy, deletion, and tagging of what I wrote is inconsistent (to say the least), considering:

The entirety of "Heroism" and "Time" sections are unreferenced; the "War" section has a single reference that does not appear to be about war. Editors who believe in blanking based on sources should be blanking those.

Nearly all of the "Fate" section looks like OR, and probably a violation of Lattimore’s copyright.

Most of the “Depiction of infantry combat” section is referenced to the Iliad, making it blatant OR.

The long section “Influence on classical Greek warfare” has a single source.

The "Nostos" section is referenced only to the Iliad, making it pure OR. The OR argues: "Nostos occurs seven times in the poem, making it a minor theme in the Iliad itself." The depiction of enslaved women and misogyny occurs more than 7 times, so why doesn't that make patriarchy a theme? Particularly when 100s off reliable sources find that theme in the story.

The extensive quoting of Lattimore throughout seems against fair-use law. Mevsherd (talk) 17:10, 17 May 2026 (UTC)

Hm, Lattimore is available at archive.org, so does that mean someone put it in the public domain? Mevsherd (talk) 17:30, 17 May 2026 (UTC)

The section "Fate" has two sources. One is an anonymous blog at http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1375344

and the other is a study guide for a college class. Mevsherd (talk) 01:14, 18 May 2026 (UTC)

Working through:

1. Heroism - Maintenance tags added
2. Time - Maintenance tags added
3. War - Maintenance tags added. The reference included does discuss the actual contents of the section which is War and peace, but does not support most of the paragraph.
4. Fate - Maintenance tags added. Quoting from a source is fine, it depends on the amount. As to the specific copyright of Lattimore, it will have gone into public domain either in 1980, or will go into public domain in 2046, depending if they renewed the copyright in 1979. It being on the Internet Archive does not mean it is in the public domain, but linking to the Internet Archive in the citation is fine, due to the policies that Internet Archive have in place. Though presently we don't link to it.
5. Depiction of infantry combat - You are wrong, as while some parts are cited to the Iliad (Homer stating x, y, or z in text), we also cite three separate books in the section. And issue here though is using Ian Johnston's translation, as this isn't an academically published translation, so it should be swapped out, with the text adjusted to show the translation we choose.
6. Influence on classical Greek warfare - Again wrong, while Lendon is cited multiple times, the section also includes citations to Herodotus and van Wees.
7. Nostos - Maintenance tags added. Stating how many times it appears is not OR, stating it is therefore a minor theme is.
8. Patriarchy - You state 100s off reliable sources find that theme, and yet you provide near 0. Please actually provide some of these 100s of sources you claim.
9. Fate - Removed the User Generated content. Maintenance tags added.

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:21, 18 May 2026 (UTC)

On point 8, searching "patriarchy iliad" and "gender iliad" in GScholar returns at least dozens of results that are accessible to those without academic library access, so looking into these and pulling from them is likely to be helpful in the section you added to show the providence of such analysis in RS. And of course, if you have access to academic libraries, you will be able to pull from even more papers and books. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:03, 18 May 2026 (UTC)

Why are you following me around? There are millions of articles that could use maintenance and better sourcing. You know I feel harassed, and you have a history of disparaging my editing. At least you and AirshipJungleman29 have stopped blanking text. The point of my comment was that the justifications given for deleting my edits justify deleting the majority of the article. So, people hadn't read the article, had some agenda, or both. Mevsherd (talk) 17:12, 18 May 2026 (UTC)

You previously complained about not engaging with you on the talk page, but if you now don't want me to engage with you on the talk page that is fine and this will be my last comment to you. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:17, 18 May 2026 (UTC)

Update

• I added some sources, and a few lines.
• Ian Johnston appears to be a reliable translation. Wikipedia is full of translations that are not "academically published," and I found a review on NPR. His Web site says: "This document is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution CC by 4.0 and thus, provided the source is acknowledged, it may be (a) downloaded and distributed, in whole or in part, without permission and without charge and (b) freely edited and adapted to suit the particular needs of the person using it."
• Are honors theses reliable sources for non-controversial claims? Like "in the past fifteen years, a significant number of female authors have been turning to classical Greek and Roman mythology in order to rewrite ancient stories." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mevsherd (talk • contribs) 01:07, 19 May 2026 (UTC)

One of these sources can be linked either 1) directly to the PDF, or 2) to a Web page that lists it in an index. Is there a guideline or preferred style?

https://pjes.edu.pl/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/PJES_6-1_3_Tuhin_Shuvra_Sen.pdf

https://pjes.edu.pl/issues/6-1-2020/ Mevsherd (talk) 13:56, 20 May 2026 (UTC)

Synopsis

This is all in the past, when the story begin. It shouldn't be presented as the opening action

After nine years of fighting, the Greek army ("Achaeans") sack Chryse, a town allied with Troy. During the battle, the Achaeans capture a pair of beautiful maidens, Chryseis and Briseis. Agamemnon, the leader, takes Chryseis as his prize, and Achilles, the Achaeans' greatest warrior, claims Briseis. Chryses, priest of Apollo, offers Agamemnon and the Achaeans wealth for the return of Chryseis, his daughter. Although most of the Achaeans are in favour of the offer, Agamemnon refuses. Chryses prays for Apollo's help, and Apollo sends a plague to afflict the Achaean army. Mevsherd (talk) 02:12, 8 May 2026 (UTC)