Talk:IPS/UPS

Research topic for politicos in the audience

As I researched this article, it occured to me that there might be EU political interests at play when promoting sychronization with the baltic states, but coolness in establishing a dependency on the Putin controlled grid. I can see how Russia would really like to export electricity to the EU. Now, Natural gas is a good source of hard currency, but if electricity is exportable, then by cracky, that's a game changer for Russia. For example, Russia can build generation and export as much coal energy they can dig up and burn. Bonuse feature: Besides getting hard currency, it also gets political leverage. Putin gets a finger on the lightswitch of europe. -J JMesserly (talk) 05:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that we should keep this article about technical side and avoid speculations about political side. In general, I agree with your interpretation; however, the technical side of synchronization is very crucial. Creating synchronous grid from Vladivostok to Lisbon (or vice versa) is technically very challenging (and costly). In the case of Baltic states I think that as the EU wants to create a well functioning internal market, it is quite complicated in he Baltic area if these countries with very limited market size are not connected to the rest of the EU, but at the same time they are very well connected through IPS/UPS with third countries having different market rules and regulations. But as I said, this is just a speculation and doesn't belong in this article (if there are reliable sources, some information could be added to the BALTSO article). Beagel (talk) 09:25, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Besides technically challenging, it's not clear that it's the right way to do it. That is, if there were huge HVDC superfreeways spanning such distances, why would anyone want to move energy via HVAC side streets? I haven't read enough to understand whether an HVDC supergrid would make such an extended grid pointless. Re politics, my point was that it was a subject to research- to find out if there is any political friction going on, and if so indicate it in the article. Certainly, speculation has no place in the body of articles. Without question, I am with you on that. I am not with you regarding keeping the article devoid of anything but technical subjects. There are documented problems regarding significant differences in legal, regulatory, and operational standards that have to be worked out, besides whatever the potential realpolitik issues there may or may not be. I don't think I would be adding this sort of material anytime soon though as I am more interested in Chinese and North American GW issues at this time. -J JMesserly (talk) 08:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

About your first question, I think there are different reasons, not least the cost of converter stations. Concerning the synchronization of IPS/UPS with UCTE, this project is certainly worth for mentioning, particularly as the new report wa published recently. There are also two separate projects moving from the IPS/UPS system to the UCTE. First one concerns Ukraine and Moldova (western part of Ukraine is already part of the UCTE), second one concerns Baltic countries. Of course, there could be also political aspects, but as you mentioned, differences in legal, regulatory, and operational standards are also crucial arguments.Beagel (talk) 18:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Map request

An internal map would be nifty; I've linked an external one. -- Beland (talk) 08:25, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

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Recent updates

DA_HK: Just a reminder: while many RU sources may be suitable for technical specifications and similar information, they should be used with great caution in other contexts. For example, sources like TASS are explicitly listed as unreliable, see WP:TASS. Please rely on WP:INDEPENDENT and WP:SECONDARY sources where suitable. -- Mindaur (talk) 20:23, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

Thank you so much, I'll keep that in mind, I just added an OCED ref, next to the TASS ref on IPS/UPS. DA HK (talk) 21:08, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

Mindaur, hey hey, it'd be nice if you discussed here before constantly linking "occupation" in "BRELL" section. WP:NPOV, that section is about "Belarus, Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania" agreement and the history of the infrastructure formation icluding HVDC links, not about occupation or other agendas. Also discuss here before removing IPS/USP connector points, historical and present from the tree chart. Thank you, have a nice day :) DA HK (talk) 12:56, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

I support with the exception of mixing HVDC and synchronization in the same section. HVDC links and synchronized operations should be in different sections. Countries sections should not be merged. Also Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan are linked, as I understand from the sources. Also, the Kaliningrad Oblast is now isolated. _ruASG⁺¹  14:04, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@RuASG You're suggesting we move "Armenia and Iran" to "Proposed synchronization"? Let's do it.

IPS Kyrgyzstan, IPS Tajikistan and IPS Uzbekistan - connected with IPS Kazakhstan, so they're in the IPS section and not HVDC links

DA HK (talk) 15:54, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

I suggest to remove both former and proposed links. It's fine to discuss them, but there is no point to visualize them if there is no certainty (e.g. there is no formal agreement signed) that they will ever be implemented (also see WP:NOTCRYSTAL); that might create a false impression that there are legal agreements. -- Mindaur (talk) 16:40, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@DA HK: It's not NPOV, especially since there is an entire high-quality article written on the Soviet occupation (and the state continuity). Why it matters in this context? 1) Because it clarifies that the Baltic States didn't join IPS/UPS voluntarily; 2) it provides an important context why these countries did not wish to remain in the grid. -- Mindaur (talk) 14:23, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@Mindaur, thanks for the reply here, I'd like to reply to your comments:

Because it clarifies that the Baltic States didn't join IPS/UPS voluntarily = The Baltic states did not have a power system before the Soviet Union to begin with. The power systems of the Baltic states were created in 1960s while they were in the Soviet Union.

regarding occupation: in the the 1960s there existed Estonian SSR, Latvian SSR and Lithuanian SSR. They were Soviet republics. Estonia, Lativa and Lithuania restored their sovereignty and independences from the Soviet Union between 1989-1991. So the Baltic states joined IPS/UPS while there were Soviet republics. As mentioned, this article is about the grid, not political opinions on whether or not were the Baltic states Soviet republics or under occupation.

My edit suggestion: Historically, the IPS/UPS technological integration of the electricity systems of modern BRELL Agreement states were made in the 1960s, when they were the Belarussian SSR, Estonian SSR, Latvian SSR, Lithuanian SSR and the Russian SSR.

DA HK (talk) 15:49, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@DA HK:

• FWIW, Russia didn't have uniform electricity grid until after the war either. The power system was fragmented in the Baltics during the Interwar period, just like in many places at that time (but more importantly, the infrastructure was absolutely devastated after the WW2). Europe began building wider synchronous grids after the war.
• We are not elaborating about the occupation here, merely providing a wikilink to the relevant (and chronological) context. The existence of SSRs didn't make them legitimate. I should note that the disconnection project was just as geopolitical as it was technical; if not more: . That is very much the relevant aspect.

-- Mindaur (talk) 16:31, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

No comment? If so, I will restore to the previous (or, arguably, original) version. -- Mindaur (talk) 13:15, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

There has been a bit of edit warring going on in the article. I just reverted an editor who had made large non-consensus edits to the article three times.

I suggest that the article improvement be fully discussed and debated here. Then, proposals can be made to improve the article, and see if a consensus might be built amongst the several editors BEFORE repeatedly changing the article space. Cheers. N2e (talk) 15:18, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@N2e: I am not sure what "non-consensus edits" you are referring to. The version I restored (just added an additional reference about the 1960s) has been present since 10 Feb and was even added by another editor, here: . Anyway, let's get back to the point: I provided the reasons above why the context matters. Do you have any comments? -- Mindaur (talk) 15:48, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@N2e: It's been several days. Any comment? -- Mindaur (talk) 13:17, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

The edit warring that had emerged seems to have ceased, and the two editors involved seem to be reaching consensus in some discussions here on this Talk page. Article seems to be improving now, with smaller edits at a more measured pace plus discussion here on Talk of areas needing further improvement. N2e (talk) 10:49, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

The article now looks much organised! With sections divided into Background, UPS, IPS, supplies and HVDC links, and each of them having sub sections for current anf former. Thanks you RuASG. DA HK (talk) 08:12, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

DA HK: You also added the IPS/UPS#Baltic_states section, which claims that those links were used for energy supply. First, the section is completely unsourced. Second, the links were not used to supply energy further to the IPS/UPS grid (i.e. Russia / Belarus): quote the opposite, most flows were from Nordics (where the prices are low) to Baltics and then Poland (where prices are higher). Moreover, I think you are confusing the technical connections with the commercial trading arrangements. Grids like IPS/UPS do not facilitate trading; Nord Pool and other institutions or agreements do. Unless you can clarify (and back it up with sources), I intend to remove the section. -- Mindaur (talk) 13:21, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Mindaur, Agreed! IPS/UPS#Baltic_states section has been removed. DA HK (talk) 13:35, 18 February 2025 (UTC)