Talk:Hongwu Emperor

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Roadrunner:

I’ll acknowledge, this article needs a lot of work. I’ve already born the greatest share of the brunt though. But I know that you'll have fun contradicting me.

172

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The date of 1830 is obviously incorrect (he reigned from 1368 to 1398). I have replaced it temporarily by a "xxxx". olivier 13:47 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)

Ugh. Ugly title for this article. -- Zoe

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I should get around to more biographical information. If I don't, other contributors should take on this task.

I also agree with Zoe. A better title will make this article on such a significant historical figure more likley to be found on a yahoo or a google search. Let's have Roadrunner decide the new name.

172

I recommend either Hongwu, Emperor Hongwu of China or Hongwu of China - Zoe

Given the long history of Imperial China and the possibility of the reigning names of emperors repeating themselves, I will raise the suggestion of incorporating the dynasty in the title--something like "Hongwu of Ming China". Also, I don't have all my sources here, but I seem to remember that Yongle was also Hongwu's son, albeit a younger son. Hongwu's elder son died young, so that he was succeeded by his grandson Zhu Yunwen. A civil war erupted, and Yongle was eventually victorious. Also there were important monetary reforms in Hongwu's time, which led to major inflation and a decentralized currency. Generally not a bad start on an article, but there seems to be too much information about Yongle and the early Ming (important subjects, to be sure, but they can go into their own articles), whereas more on Hongwu would be valuable. The opening remark reminds me of a professor of mine in Chinese history teaching that Mao's rise to power should be seen in the context of traditional changes of dynasty in China. I'll buy that, but I wonder if this is the place to bring that up. Danny

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Hung-wu's one of the most significant figures in Chinese history, and indeed world history. Hung-wu or Hung-wu would suffice, just like Henry VIII can do instead of Henry VII of the Tudor Dynasty.

172

Actually, we use Henry VIII of England. Danny

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Well, we could have Hongwu, Hung-wu, Hongwu Emperor of China. Just redirect all of them to the same article.

172

There are two problems. 1. Consistency: we want the articles for all emperors of China to be titled similarly. 2. China never developed a system of reginal numbers. Where there other Hongwu's? Where there other emperors who shares the same name? How are we distinguishing between them? Danny

I think that, given that many wiki users won't be familiar with Chinese history, and that there is a clearly defined empire with a name that was reigned over, the name of the empire should be stated, so readers can immediately answer the basic questions, who?' and where?. We have a absolute unintelligable nightmare with Japanese emperors, given that one person refuses to allow the use of the Japan word in their title. At this stage, if you don't already know Japanese emperors, finding them on wiki is now the equivalent of trying to find a needle in a haystack (though efforts are being made to undo with mess). So the name we use should have three things

• a recognisable name
• as much historical accuracy as possible (given that we are dealing with an english language version of wiki and so cannot - or should not - translate everything literally if the meaning cannot be grasped by english language readers)
• a recognisable location.

I certainly would have no problem with in China's case incorporating a dynastic name but only if necessary. STÓD/ÉÍRE 02:22 Apr 7, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not set on it. Just a suggestion. There are also issues of spelling in English (Pinyin vs. Wade-Giles) and the actual names themselves--reign names, personal names, etc. It can be a mess if we are not consistent. Danny

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Hongwu Emperor is currently the most up-to-date spelling, I believe. Perhaps this will be a better title.

172

I think we should incorporate at least the word "China" in the title, and if the title comes in, it should come first. In cases of European monarchs, we do not include the title. Why would we include it here? Danny

If, as that god-awful battle over on the japanese emperors names pages suggested, eastern tradition places emperor after name, then we could do it, I suppose, rather than apply strict European naming standards to eastern monarchies. But I agree that China should stay; saying that there everyone can tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese, though regularly repeated on wiki, is simply wrong. Many people cannot tell. When you consider there may also be a list of Vietnamese emperors at some stage, it makes sense to clarify who came from where. Having turned [[{name} Emperor of Japan]] into [[{name} Emperor]], the last thing we need are more anonymous emperors appearing by the dozen on wiki. (Though I have that dreadful feeling that we will be swamped here like on the Japanese pages by 'purists' demanding we do just that, even if it produces unfindable pages!!!) Man the barracades to defend 'China'! (*big big smile*). Jeez, I never thought I'd hear myself say that!!! STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:36 Apr 7, 2003 (UTC)

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Does anyone want to add content and perspective to the article? Keep in mind that the posting is entirely mine and Chinese history, at least prior to the First Opium War, is not my area of expertise.

172

I minored in East Asian history, but that was almost twenty years ago, and I haven't touched the stuff since. There was an important economic component to his rule--major inflation because of paper money being printed and distributed without backing, followed by a decentralized currency, which eventually led to economic destablization. You've got a much better grip on economic issues than me. Could you check on that? Danny

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I've added more on economic policies with a particular bent on as to how they contributed to the aborted commercial revolution of the later Ming years.

172

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Compliments to 172 for this well-thought article especially the concise commerce paragragh; however I'd like to point out certain things:

1) Quote: "Hongwu noted the destructive role of court eunuchs under the Sung". Hongwu did take certain measures against court eunuchs but Sung dynasty was not noted for plaguing of eunuchs.

2) "Although Hongwu’s rule saw the introduction of paper currency, capitalist development would be stifled from the beginning. Not understanding inflation, Hongwu gave out so much paper money as rewards that by 1425 the state was forced to reintroduce copper coins given that the currency was worth 1/70 of its original value."

May you comment on this? I always think Yuan rulers were responsible of devaluing the paper currency; however Hongwu and his Confuscian schloar gentry's lack of monetary knowledge led them to wrongly blaming the introduction of paper currency as one source of devaluing and thus introducing silver for monetary exchange.

3)In my humble opionion, Ming's government's plaguing of commerce have gradually changed Chinese commerce self-supporting and inward, as noticed in the rise of certain specialized merchant groups. For instance Shanxi merchants specialized in currency exchange and banking, Huizhou and Anhui merchants in salt and rice. These merchant groups complemented each other, thus limiting needs of commercial services outside the coutry.

point#3 could be inserted in the Ming Dynasty article. As always, I'm open to discussion. -- User:kt2

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It's copper right after the abandonment of paper money. You don't see the rise of the silver money economy, I'm fairly certain, until the trade with the Portuguese. I'm fairly certain that the content regarding currency is fine.

I agree, though, point 3 belongs in the article. This is an important factor that I overlooked.

Thank you, kt2.

172

but I am pretty sure that Ming dynasty did see the first use of silver money, probably not in Hongwu's time (which I am not sure). IMO, they traded with Portguese and later Dutch for silver during mid-Ming because slmost all silver mines in China have been used up.User:kt2

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They abandoned paper money for copper in the late 15th century, before trade with the Portuguese.

172

Consort sacrifice sources

The sources cited here (e.g. 137) aren't really authoritative or mainstream--some journals from a teachers' college in Shandong, e.g. Is there any indication of the sacrifice from solid sources?

Who is "Sun Deyai"?

The name only appears in Wikipedia articles, and "yai" is not even a possible Pinyin syllable. What gives? Jogloran (talk) 17:07, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Looks like it's supposed to be zh:孫德崖 (i.e. Sun Deya). No idea where the invalid transliteration arose. Folly Mox (talk) 19:00, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Hongwu Emperor/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Min968 (talk · contribs) 14:51, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Векочел (talk · contribs) 15:50, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

Looking forward to reviewing this article about the founder of Ming China. Векочел (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

Initial comments

• "Guo's remaining son was chosen as his deputy." Does the source give the name of Guo Zixing's son?
  • Soon thereafter Chu had Kuo's younger son executed on a charge of violating military discipline. Dreyer (1988). p. 70
• "Zhang attempted to attack in late 1364, before the enemy could exploit the potential of the newly conquered territories, but their offensive was repulsed in the spring of 1365." Who is the their who launched this offensive?
• "A census was conducted to record the population listed in the Yellow Registers, while the land, its quality, taxation, and ownership were recorded in fish-cale registries." I believe fish-cale should be rewritten as fish-scale.
• "After China was reunified, there were difficulties in circulating coins, according to officials, due to insufficient quantities." You might reconsider rewording as "After China was reunified, officials claimed that insufficient quantities of coins caused difficulties in circulation."
• "Therefore, it is understandable why the exchange of banknotes for silver was prohibited." I'm inclined to remove this sentence, as the word understandable ascribes a judgement that is not line with neutral point of view. Alternatively, you might reword it as "Therefore, he sought to prohibit the exchange of banknotes for silver." (This sentence refers to the Hongwu Emperor.)
• "This shift towards Confucianism also resulted in the renewal of civil service examinations in 1384, with only required knowledge of the Four Books and Five Classics." Does the source state what texts civil service candidates were required to know before 1384?
  • The source does not mention this issue. (Dreyer 1982 p. 107, Li 2010 p. 24)
• "The implementation of the civil service examination system and the subsequent indoctrination of the nation's elite had a profound influence on the country's character." This sentence needs a source.
• "The abolition of the grand chancellor's office, equivalent to a modern prime minister, and the reform of central administrative bodies resulted in the loss of a strong representative for officials." The grand chancellor's office is elsewhere described the Grand Secretariat, and I think you should also use that description here.

Векочел (talk) 23:23, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

@Векочел: The points above have been edited. Min968 (talk) 06:22, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

• One more point. Does Dreyer (1982), p. 152 name his successor? "In recognition of his achievements, he was given the posthumous name Taizu, meaning 'Grand Progenitor', by his successor." Векочел (talk) 12:09, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

• • @Векочел: Edited. Min968 (talk) 12:15, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
    • @Min968: Thanks. I will pass it. Векочел (talk) 12:21, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wiki Education assignment: China and the World

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation–supported course assignment, between 21 August 2025 and 19 December 2025. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Liaodraon (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Liaodraon (talk) 01:30, 4 October 2025 (UTC)