Talk:Henry Biard

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 09:39, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the pilot Henry Biard made his first flight before taking his first flying lesson? Source: Longyard, William H. (1994). Who's Who in Aviation History. Novato: Presidio. pp. 23–24. ISBN 978-1-85310-272-1. Retrieved 2023-08-23 – via Internet Archive.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Jews Don't Count

Moved to mainspace by UndercoverClassicist (talk). Self-nominated at 09:26, 1 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Henry Biard; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: All in all, the article and the hook both meet all of the requirements for DYK and I have no reason not to pass this submission. JJonahJackalope (talk) 12:20, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Henry Biard/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mertbiol (talk · contribs) 18:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a fascinating and very well-written article about an intriguing man! I have made a few comments about the text below - mostly very minor. I have a few queries about some of the references, but no major problems that I can see. Mertbiol (talk) 18:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Matters UC thinks are resolved

• The final sentence of the second paragraph (starting "He joined and resigned from the Royal Flying Corps...") is long (52 words) - I suggest splitting it in two.
  • Agreed and done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, first sentence: The London Gazette (Reference [4]) spells Biard's first name as "Henri" and uses a capital "L" in the "de La Faye".
  • Good spot; changed (this is certainly his birth name).
• Second paragraph, first sentence: Reference [5] (Barrie Bertram) does not appear to support the dates "1907 and 1908" for Biard's attendance at Victoria College.
  • Wrong Bertram; fixed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Third paragraph: I found the description of Biard's first flight at Hendon a little confusing. Would it be better to rephrase "took off and flew the aircraft for two miles, crossing the aerodrome, picking up a mechanic and returning safely" to "took off, flew the aircraft across the aerodrome, picked up a mechanic and returned safely - a distance of two miles"?
  • Done, with a slight tweak to make absolutely unambiguous. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, second and third sentences (starting "He was the most experienced of six pilots..." and "The race was ultimately declared void"): These two sentences are both long (117 words in total) and a little tricky to read. In particular, it's not entirely clear if all six pilots flew the Sea Lion I in the 1919 Schneider Trophy, or if this was just Basil Deacon Hobbs. I suggest rephrasing and possibly moving the information about F. J. Bailey and Basil Deacon Hobbs to a footnote. It might also be worth splitting the third sentence (about the race being declared void) at the "but".
  • Done something here; the order wasn't great, but I think is better now. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Second paragraph, first sentence - "replacing the steam-powered ships who normally sailed" - please replace "who" with "that".
  • Done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Second paragraph, first sentence - "had struck in solidarity with the railway workers" - perhaps better phrased as "whose crews had struck in solidarity with the railway workers."
  • Done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Second paragraph, final sentence - I think reference [28] (Andrews & Morgan 1981) should be for pages 33 and 34 (Biard's search for Bailey is on p. 33).
  • Changed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Third paragraph, second sentence - ("Biard's reports on the performance of Mitchell's designs were an important influence on the development of several.") - missing word after "several".
  • Added "of them". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Final paragraph, final sentence - The London Gazette [19] says that Biard was a "2nd Lt" not a "lieutenant".
  • So it does - fixed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Please change the capital "V" for a lower case "v" in the subsection title.
• Second paragraph, final sentence - Please remove "fascist government" - reference [39] (Eves 2001, p. 83) simply says "political pressure", the race took place in Naples on 12 August and Mussolini did not become Prime Minister of Italy until 31 October 1922.
  • Good spot; changed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Third paragraph, first sentence - ("British participation in the Schneider Trophy in the early 1920s was received no government funding") - please remove the extraneous "was".
  • Done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Third paragraph, third sentence - I am not sure that "The British government refused to offer funding for the entry" is necessary as you have already said this in the first sentence.
  • Agreed; changed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Fourth paragraph, third sentence - Reference [44] (Andrews & Morgan 1981, p. 61) says that Biard's "airspeed indicator [showed] nearly 150 mph".
  • Added an almost. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Fourth paragraph, fourth sentence - please link Naples.
  • Done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Fifth paragraph, end of second sentence - please remove "Italian" from "aiming to create a false sense of security in his Italian rivals" - you've already made it clear that the Italians were the rivals!
  • Done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Fifth paragraph, final sentence - it might be worth linking "propellor" to propeller and "delaminate" to lamination.
  • Agreed: I think it helps with the technical nature of this bit (except linked to delamination). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• It might be worth switching the order of the seventh and eighth paragraphs, so that Pelgram's description of Biard's autobiography as a "a work of pure fiction" precedes the assertion that "the three Italian pilots had worked together to require [Biard] to gain height in order to overtake them".
  • Agreed; I've moved the "pure fiction" statement earlier, but kept the later stuff in chronological order. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, third sentence - I suggest deleting "to the aircraft" from "Mitchell made aerodynamic improvements to the aircraft"
  • Done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, fifth sentence - I think reference [60] (Andrews & Morgan 1981, p. 95) should be to page 65 (not 95).
  • Changed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, first sentence: I suggest removing "flying out" from "with a course flying out over Chesapeake Bay" to reduce the number of occurrences of fly/flight/flying in this paragraph.
  • Done (though I did smile at the suggestion of reducing the amount of flying in an article about a pilot). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, second sentence: "...and whose first flight Biard had carried out on 24 August" reads a little awkwardly. Perhaps a rephrase - or even just replacing "carried out" with "piloted"? (Would "maiden flight" work better than "first flight"?)
  • I've rephrased; "maiden flight" would allow a bit more brevity, but also runs up against WP:IDIOM (plus it's a slightly skin-crawling idiom when you think about it...) UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, third sentence: I suggest adding "had" to "since the French aviator Maurice Prévost had won the Gordon Bennett Trophy".
  • I'm really not sure on the grammar here, but the change certainly works, so have deferred and done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, fourth sentence (starting "According to the historian Constance Babington Smith...") very long - 62 words - I suggest splitting in two.
  • Agreed and done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, fourth sentence: The exact quote from reference [95] (Andrews & Morgan 1981, p. 96) is "set a new standard in marine aircraft".
  • Fixed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, seventh sentence: It's been a while since you last mentioned "Bailey", so it might be worth saying "F.J. Bailey" again.
  • Done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, eighth sentence: Please link "Newcastle" to Newcastle upon Tyne.
  • Done; I did consider spelling out, but the clunkiness doesn't really justify the clarity (as "upon Tyne" is so much more famous than "under Lyne"). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Third paragraph, second sentence: I think reference [104] (Andrews & Morgan 1981, p. 113) should be to p. 313 (not p. 113).
  • Changed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Final paragraph, first sentence: Please change "which" to "that", as you are defining the subset of Vickers aircraft that Biard continued to test.
  • Done (must admit I find that particular rule a little dated, but no objection to following it here). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• The references to Glancey (2020) ([2], [45], [46], [52], [59], [62], [68], [72], [75], [76], [82] and [85]) require page numbers. I have this book and I can look the pages up for you, if you need me to - just let me know.
  • I don't have the pages for Glancy and a few others; as you'll see in the source code, I used the Google preview of the ebook, which isn't paginated. Page numbers aren't strictly required by WP:CITE, but if you can track them down, I'd be very grateful. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:39, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• I am wondering if there should be earlier mention of the race location in the subsection "Schneider Trophy 1923: Cowes". At the moment, The Solent is not mentioned until the third paragraph and Cowes is only mentioned in the heading. Since Cowes and The Solent are probably less well known internationally than Naples and Baltimore, I'd suggest adding "at Cowes, England" or "at Cowes, Isle of Wight" or "over The Solent" or similar at the end of the first sentence of the first paragraph.
  • Good shout, done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:40, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Early life (1892–1919)

• First paragraph, second sentence: Reference [5] (Barrie Bertram) says that Henry was the "middle son" rather than the "second of three" (he could have been the third of five or even fourth of seven!)

1922 Schneider Trophy Victory

• It might be worth changing this subsection title to "Schneider Trophy 1922: Naples" to match the next two subsection titles (or changing the next two subsection titles to match this one!).
  • Fixed the V. I can see the argument, but the fact that he won it is one of the most important facts in his biography, so there's value in the header being able to direct a casual reader to the "right" bit. Equally, adding "1923 defeat" seems a little harsh! UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Schneider Trophy 1923: Cowes

• First paragraph, third sentence - I suggest rephrasing "moving its outer struts within the structure of the aircraft" to "repositioning its outer struts".
  • Not sure I see this one; precision of language is generally a good thing. I will freely admit to not really understanding all of the engineering stuff here, but it strikes me that at least some of our readers do and will be interested. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, fourth sentence - Would it be better to say "the modified aircraft" rather than "the new aircraft"?
  • Maybe; they did give it a new number, though, which I think means that they at least wanted to say that it was a whole new plane. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, fourth sentence - I suggest changing "50 hp more powerful than that used for the Sea Lion II" to "50 hp more powerful than before/previously" or similar.
  • I've now stuck "Sea Lion III" a bit earlier, so I think there's now a good balance between the two numbers, but not particularly committed to this point. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• Second paragraph, third sentence - this sentence is long (88 words). I suggest moving the final part (starting "during navigability trials on 27 September") to a footnote.
  • Have reworked, but kept in the body: there's a case for a footnote, but most people don't read them, and I think it's relevant to the withdrawal of the aircraft that it nearly killed someone, rather than it simply being a bit rubbish at flying. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Other work for Supermarine

• First paragraph, first sentence: I suggest replacing "he made the first flight of the Supermarine Southampton" with "he piloted the Supermarine Southampton on its maiden flight".
  • I see the repetition, but am reluctant to go with "maiden flight" for reasons above. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
• First paragraph, third sentence: Reference [93a] (Andrews & Morgan 1981, p. 91) does not appear to support "leading to the adjustment of its angle of incidence and subsequent total redevelopment".
  • Still to do. Done -- was the wrong page (now fixed). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Sources check

• I have checked the following references: [3] (see note above about the spelling of "Henri" and the capitalisation of "La" in "de la Faye"), [4], [5] (see note above about the number of sons of Raymond Biard and dates of Henry's attendance at Victoria College), [7], [14], [15], [17], [19] (see note above about Biard's rank), [24], [25], [26], [28] (see note about page numbers above), [34], [37], [39] (see note above about the start date for fascist rule in Italy), [41], [42], [43], [44] (see note above about the airspeed), [47], [48], [50], [51], [53], [57], [58], [60] (see note about page number above), [63], [64], [66], [67], [74], [81], [93] (see comment above), [94], [95] (see note above about the exact quote), [96], [99], [102], [104] (see note about page number above), [109], [110], [112], [117], [118], [119], [120].

Stopping here for now

Over to @UndercoverClassicist: Best wishes, Mertbiol (talk) 18:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking this on. I'll probably get to it piecemeal - one reply above so far. Appreciate your time and thoroughness. I understand most of the comments; expect most to be straightforward, but I'll let you know where I could do with a bit more clarification. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:41, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Putting the review on hold

There are just a few outstanding issues, so I will put the review on hold. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks: any objection if I move the resolved matters to a collapse template, so that I can see more clearly what's left? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, of course, that's fine. Mertbiol (talk) 21:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the collapse template is fine. For me, there are only two outstanding issues:

• Number of brothers
• Reference [93a] (Andrews & Morgan 1981, p. 91)

Best wishes, Mertbiol (talk) 10:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Yup - checking both of those. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:22, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

On the brothers: Bertram 2007a is fairly clear that he only had one brother when he was born (Old Victorian (OV) Henry Charles Amedie de la Faye Biard was born on 1st January, 1892 ... His brother, Walter Lucien, was a year younger ...), so I've added that as a multi-cite. I'm working away today but I've got Andrews and Morgan at home; I'll dig it out and check it when I'm back. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:29, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Found Andrews and Morgan; I had the wrong page. Now fixed -- I think we should be good to go if you're happy? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Final verdict

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

This is a very interesting and informative article. It is very well written and appears to cover all aspects of Henry Biard's life and career in depth. Congratulations to @UndercoverClassicist: for your hard work in bringing this nomination forward. It's been a pleasure to work with you on this review. I have no hesitation in promoting the article to GA status. Well done!

You don't need me to tell you what the next steps would/could be, but I'd certainly encourage you to go for an A-Class review at WikiProject Military history, if that's something you're considering.

Good luck with your other articles and I hope our paths cross again in the future. Best wishes, Mertbiol (talk) 12:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)