Talk:Harding Street raid

weapons section

The listing of weapons in the info box are the firearms owned by Dennis Tuttle found after the raid in a search of the premises. They are not weapons fired in the shootout. They are not Tuttle's phantom .357 revolver, nor any of the weapons used by the HPD to kill Dennis Tuttle, Rhogena Nicholas, and their dog, nor the phantom 9mm handgun allegedly seen by the informant. [[added: I will accept that Tuttle may have used a .357 revolver his relatives said he kept as a home defense weapon after gov't agents killed his dog and his wife.]

Jacob Sullum, "Here Is What Police Found (and Didn't) After Deadly Houston Drug Raid", reason.com, 11 Feb 2019. "The other four items in the inventory are guns: a 20-gauge Beretta ALS shotgun, a 12-gauge Remington 1100 shotgun, a Remington 700 bolt-action rifle, and a .22-caliber Winchester 190 semi-automatic rifle. The list does not include the .357 Magnum revolver that police say Tuttle fired at the officers who broke into his home, shot his dog, and killed his wife. Nor does it mention the 9mm semi-automatic handgun that the C.I. supposedly saw in the house the day before, which apparently disappeared along with the heroin and the money."

--Naaman Brown (talk) 22:07, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

The forensic team hired by the Tuttle and Nicholas families to investigate the shooting acknowledges that Tuttle did own a .357 mag revolver and kept it by the bedside for home defense. It does not appear in the published list of items taken by police in the search of the house. The families' team found .223 rifle casings and .45 ACP casings on the floor of the house, left behind by the police investigative team, along with other items of evidence. There were no fired casings matching the four Tuttle firearms listed in the search inventory. Listing Tuttle's rifles and shotguns as involved in the shooting is misleading. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 16:01, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I notice the four firearms recovered after the raid, and not actually used or shot in the raid, have been restored to the info box. None of the weapons fired at Tuttle, his wife, or their dog by police are listed. I think this is misleading and should not be in the info box. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 22:19, 27 September 2019 (UTC) The Tuttle couple's ordinary sporting rifles and shotguns recovered from a closet unused during the raid should not be used after the fact to justify the government overkill; this is like posting photos of Atatiana Jefferson's legally owned and licensed handgun to justify her summary execution. You want to list Pecan Park Raid weapons, list the weapons actually used and fired; Tuttle's .357 and the police .45 handguns, 12ga shotgun, .223/5.56 rifles. --Naaman Brown (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Additional references

• Barker, Aaron (2019-06-20). "Prosecutors urge HPD to hand over documents in Harding Street probe". KPRC-TV.
• Diaz, Mario (2019-05-13). "Private forensics team recovers 10 bullets believed to have been fired during Harding Street raid". KHOU.
• Diaz, Mario (2019-05-14). "Questions rise after private investigator finds new evidence in botched Harding Street raid". KHOU.
• Kennedy, Megan (2019-05-15). "Police probe of deadly botched Harding Street raid complete". KHOU.

WhisperToMe (talk) 08:07, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

https://www.click2houston.com/video/14-officers-now-have-attorneys-video WhisperToMe (talk) 05:40, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

https://www.click2houston.com/news/investigates/debacle-forensic-investigator-reveals-his-findings-on-the-harding-street-raid WhisperToMe (talk) 19:51, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

https://www.click2houston.com/news/2019/05/07/3-new-things-kprc2-has-learned-about-deadly-harding-street-shootout/ WhisperToMe (talk) 05:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

https://reason.com/2020/08/03/grand-jury-indictments-paint-a-picture-of-deadly-deceit-in-houston-narcotics-division/ WhisperToMe (talk) 20:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Houston-council-OKs-1-25M-contract-with-law-firm-16135986.php WhisperToMe (talk) 22:25, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

https://www.houstonchronicle.com:443/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Houston-council-OKs-1-25M-contract-with-law-firm-16135986.php WhisperToMe (talk) 18:35, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

FBI Tweets

Tweets from FBI Houston about the case:

• https://twitter.com/FBIHouston/status/1197171050477428736?s=20
• https://twitter.com/FBIHouston/status/1197178650958991361

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:48, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Pecan Park?

As a Houstonian this raid hasbren consistently called the Harding Street Raid. Thegunkid (talk) 18:35, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• @Thegunkid: You can do a Wikipedia:Requested move if you want. You can find evidence for such and the article can be moved. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 5 July 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) Raskuly 🐰 00:50, 14 July 2026 (UTC)

---

Harding Street raid → 2019 Harding Street raid2019 Harding Street raid – A lack of other notable raids at roads called Harding Street does not imply that a year is not necessary, factors such as how identifiable the incident does, and this incident does not appear to reach that level of notoriety. Please note that WP:NCWWW states that most events titles should say when, where, and what happened. Years are not WP:OVERPRECISION (please note that exceptions to the precision criterion are a result of the application of other naming criterion) or only usable for disambiguation (if this were the case, then part of NCWWW would be basically irrelevant, and guidelines and policies should work in harmony, not in opposition to one another).

Readers should not be confused if there have been other notable raids at a Harding Street because if there had been, it should be mentioned and linked to in the article, like with the distinguish template. Please also note that for WP:NOYEAR to apply, you must establish that the event is as remotely as easily recognizable as the examples of no year events. Additionally, the sentence "The date is not needed when the article pertains to events that are unlikely to recur" refers to events involving individual people or persons. And finally, if you look at sources, they emphasize the year it took place in: 2019. Raskuly 🐰 06:00, 5 July 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 08:45, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose as unnecessary WP:OVERPRECISION and per WP:CONCISE. This event is easily described as the Harding Street raid and there is nothing else on WP that could be described as the Harding Street raid. A move would just result in the shorter title redirecting back to the longer title. And the longer title might imply there was a Harding Street raid in some other year. Station1 (talk) 10:14, 5 July 2026 (UTC)

  Sigh. Raskuly 🐰 14:45, 5 July 2026 (UTC)

  Incidentally, of the 4 external links provided at the end of the proposal above, the headlines (ie., titles) of the articles are "Harding Street raid update: Harris County DA's Office says it dismissed 17 charges against 8 HPD officers", "Court rules that family can not sue officer who fired fatal shots in Harding Street raid", "Harding Street raid cops have charges dismissed in alleged overtime scheme", and "Fifth Circuit shields Houston police officer who was sued over deadly Harding Street raid". Station1 (talk) 19:17, 5 July 2026 (UTC)

  "The botched Harding Street raid happened in 2019"; "The decision comes more than seven years after Nicholas and Tuttle were killed inside their southeast Houston home during a January 2019 no-knock drug raid that was based on false information."; "The Harris County District Attorney’s Office on Thursday moved to dismiss 17 charges against eight former Houston Police Department officers — some involved in the botched 2019 Harding Street raid — for cases related to an alleged overtime pay scheme."; "The Houston Police Department officer who fired the shots that killed two people in the infamous 2019 Harding Street raid cannot be sued for using excessive force, a federal appeals court ruled Monday." Raskuly 🐰 19:52, 5 July 2026 (UTC)

  Right. The year is information that needs to appear in the body of the article, but not in the title. That's how all 4 of the cited articles do it and that's how we do it. Station1 (talk) 02:16, 6 July 2026 (UTC)

  Alright, you got me, but that isn't actually relevant to WP:NOYEAR or WP:NCWWW–that would be WP:COMMONNAME. This has never been a disambiguation issue. I tried to help you and Crouch understand NOYEAR and NCWWW. Raskuly 🐰 02:52, 6 July 2026 (UTC)

  Btw, you are welcome to participate in Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (events)#NCWWW. I told Crouch, but I forgot to tell you. Raskuly 🐰 02:54, 6 July 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose per Station1, the event can easily be described without the year. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:30, 5 July 2026 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Texas/Houston task force, WikiProject Law Enforcement, and WikiProject Texas have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 08:46, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose per Station1. Usually, articles about killings that have a city name in the title also include a year (2025 Anaconda shooting, 2025 Lexington shootings, 2025 Montgomery shooting, etc.), but when the title references a smaller unit like a street or neighborhood in a city it does not (Shannon Street massacre, West Street Massacre, Downing Street mortar attack, Wall Street bombing, Via D'Amelio bombing, etc.).

Wikipedian-in-Waiting (talk) 11:10, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

There is nothing in the guidelines which supports this. See 2023 Kingsessing shooting, and 2023 Ybor City shooting for counterexamples. Additionally, there exists countless examples of years in articles for events involving even smaller units like individual locations. Raskuly 🐰 14:56, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

I was sharing my thoughts about possible logic/reasons for the lack of dates in some articles. Another possible logic/reason would be that adding four digits before a street name makes it look like a street address, which adds more confusion than clarity and does nothing for findability. Regardless of the background logic, though, I still oppose renaming this article for the reasons stated by Station1. Wikipedian-in-Waiting (talk) 15:54, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

A lack of application of WP:NCWWW appropriately is in my view the primary culprit. However, I can see the argument that in this particular instance that the year might potentially indicate an address. In major cities, sometimes buildings are simply known by their address, and to a unfamiliar reader, they may think that this is some high rise somewhere that had a raid. WP:OVERPRECISION and WP:CONCISE are being misapplied however, that might be to actually put the full address in the title, like 7815 Harding Street raid in the latter, but that of course also runs afowl of WP:COMMONNAME. Raskuly 🐰 00:36, 14 July 2026 (UTC)

Oppose the proposed title would be a unnecessary WP:OVERPRECISION considering the fact that there are no other notable Harding Street raids, defined by this one being the only one with an article. Servite et contribuere (talk) 21:44, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

• Comment: I would recommend future participants thoroughly read WP:NCEVENTS. Subjects have different naming guidelines. The manner in which WP:OVERPRECISION and WP:CONCISION has been used in this and consistently in other event-related RMs has caused notable disruption for what should be easy moves, and has led to dialogue to try to tighten up the wording around WP:NCWWW specifically, as it attracts a lot of particular ire for whatever reason. RMs like this should not be dictated by the "luck of the draw" by whoever happens to take part. Raskuly 🐰 07:28, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

  It's a little bit condescending to suggest we haven't read NCEVENTS just because we disagree with your interpretation of policy and guidelines. If implementation of policy that has wide consensus disrupts the misapplication of guidelines that have at best local consensus, that's good for the encyclopedia. Station1 (talk) 18:50, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

  Apologies, I thought I wrote "future participants", I will amend that. Raskuly 🐰 20:43, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose: I am troubled by the misuse of WP:OVERPRECISION and WP:CONCISE to oppose WP:NCWWW-centered RMs, but I've realized that this is a special and established WP:COMMONNAME. It is highly unusual for anything like this to be known by a specific non-notable road, and as such WP:NCWWW is not applicable and the event passes WP:NOYEAR. Raskuly 🐰 00:50, 14 July 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.