Talk:German language

Luxembourg

@KoreaJAP: Luxembourgish is recognized as an independent language. You can't use its use in Luxembourg to argue that Luxembourgers are really speaking German. Furthermore, your changes have ignored that Luxembourg has three official languages. You can't claim that German is the "most widely spoken" when that is clearly Luxembourgish. Or else provide a source showing that Standard German is more widely spoken than Luxembourgish in Luxembourg.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:59, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I have corrected it. KoreaJAP (talk) 18:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Recognized minority language in Hungary

The recognized minority languages are not restricted geographically to individual cities or counties and thus German is a recognized minority language in entire Hungary, not just Sopron. This includes for example giving German names to babies, etc. Please correct the lead and the infobox. 2001:4C4E:24A1:FE00:7A14:F228:7166:600D (talk) 10:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Actual Number of German Native Speakers

Quote: "German is one of the major languages of the world, with nearly 80 million native speakers and over 130 million total speakers as of 2024" (source Ethnologue).

- Acc. to List of countries and territories where German is an official language: 87,875,432 + ca. 400.000 native speakers (South Tyrol + Poland) = 88,275,432 million.

(Plus at least 9,368,947 as second language (= 97,644,378); add another 8,128,752 (source: Template:German_L1_speakers_outside_Europe) = 105,773,130 million.)

- Acc. to Geographical distribution of German speakers: "It is estimated that approximately 90–95 million people speak German as a first language [...] ."

(Plus "10–25 million as second language (= 100–120 million), 75–100 million as foreign language". Because I'm getting anal-retentive here.)

So, who is solving the "Native Speaker" riddle?? Being off by about 20% for the group of native speakers alone (80 to 95 million) is truely something to behold. I know, "that's Wp for you", but anyway...

Another question: Can it be that Ethnologue is a bit biased? Maybe more recent sources could be found, as some are from the 2000's and 2010's. 185.16.53.129 (talk) 10:30, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

You’re citing other Wikipedia pages for your numbers? And how exactly do you think Ethnologue is “biased” against the total number of German speakers? Ethnologue is from 2024.—-Ermenrich (talk) 11:38, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

The real problem here, as I see it, is that the stats in the Infobox are not consistent with the stats from Ethnologue in the lede. The infobox stats are perhaps from more focussed sources, but are less recent, though the fact that they are higher does not suggest that they are for that reason not still more or less accurate. --Pfold (talk) 12:09, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

I don’t have access to the actual statistics from Ethnologue (a subscription is needed), but over 80 million people live in Germany alone, so even if we assume not all of them speak German, when you factor in just Austria and Switzerland, the OP is probably right that something is wrong with the 80 million number.—-Ermenrich (talk) 15:02, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

>You’re citing other Wikipedia pages for your numbers?

>[H]ow exactly do you think Ethnologue is “biased” against the total number of German speakers?

Some citations used here on Wp, *stating* data from 2000's to mid-2010's, are not up to date. I linked to pages in question - is okay, isn't it? You can check sources. You're prof, I'm just native speaker, not registered either.

Ethnologue was known to not update data for quite a while (Also remember the "80 mio. speakers in all" statement, used here before they enshittified the website, so for years).

I call that a bias, yes. Esp. when nobody cares to check for new sources, or maybe updated data from Ethnologue.

Yes. I mean the diverse tables and listings in article, and their resp. sources - should be congruent, is not. And when in doubt, I may trust the german Wp on things german - yours can't be, sorry. Mr. prof can check it, too.

[...] Is wrong with the 80 million number *for a long time - rected. And correct. This is the problem I'm afraid, it being way outdated imho, or biased? But then you folks here are supporting, or promoting, that bias.

This mystery is easily solvable. Note that the Ethnologue page cited for the 80 million number lists Standard German on #12. Looking at this archived page from 2019, the given figure was even lower at the time: a mere 76.1 million (70.8 million in Germany, 0.2 million in Austria, 0.3 million in Switzerland, 0.01 million in Luxembourg, etc.). Clearly, Ethnologue does not count all native speakers of any variety of German as native speakers of Standard German. For instance, in Switzerland, relatively few people are native speakers of Standard German; for most people, their native language is an Alemannic dialect. A similar picture presents itself in several countries outside Germany (chiefly its more northern regions, where traditional dialects are hardly used anymore). This explains the discrepancy: even in Germany, not every native speaker of German is also a native speaker of Standard German. Given that the article primarily deals with the standard language, citing Ethnologue's coverage of Standard German is fair. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:29, 15 March 2026 (UTC)

Oh, so it is clearly solvable. You have to adapt the article to make it about the teutonic varation of the German language (vulgo that ominous "Std. German"), because acc. to Ethnologue, whatever that may be, it is the one that counts. Not the bavarian, allemanic, saxon or other "dialects" - fair game.

So, basically: "[...] (M)ainly spoken in Western and Central Europe. It is the majority and official (or co-official) language in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. It is also an official language of Luxembourg, Belgium and the Italian autonomous province of South Tyrol, [...]" etc.. This is placed right at the beginning, the lede has to be changed, and then work your way through... So why no fixing it? Should go easy-peasy. Obviously the article is an assorted concoction of sorts, because it is about the German language, not the "Standard German" language, quote: "[...] (N)ot every native speaker of German is also a native speaker of Standard German". So be brave, you're an "indo-european linguist" Mr. M.A., and I just quoted your commentary. It prob. also doesn't matter at all, that schools in countries you mentioned teach a standardised version of German (some may even call it "Std. German"). Mr. German prof can help you, Mr. linguist.

And at the least, pls, add "This article is tentatively sponsored & supported by Ethnologue®, the essential language reference® resource!" to the top paragraph - show pride here, sadly many an eager beaver doesn't.

I know people in southern France who prefer themselves speaking Occitan, not French. Nobody try to inform Ethnologue, they may disagree. People may speak French-foremost in France acc. to them. 1, 2

Of course, when it comes to other countries, then they may be favouring distinctions of "variants", though. Who would have thought. ...One job.

Conclusio: I do believe Ethnologue as source is biased, using it transfers that bias to where it doesn't belong, adds to confusion, and I think their definition of "standard lang" vs. "the rest" is outdated and based on lacking scientifical foundation. And I stand by it.

Another idea - Austria got flooded by "teutonic" Germans over the past decades. If it continues that way, the country will be annexed once more, but this time nobody can blame them. Pretty sure Germans will teach the Austrians how to properly Germanise. Means if they be "standardised" well enough, Ethnologue might need be updated on that factlet in time. Please somebody tell them: "Austrians to speak "Standard German" by 2050. Eisbein & Sauerkraut rule, das ist lecker!"

Bonus Points: For the educated crowd, explain me CH, AT "Principal Languages - Standard German", in a fair and unbiased way, especially the "principal" part. Or don't. *mic drop*

What a mess this project has become. - E.O.D. — ~2026-36325-93 (talk) 18:32, 22 June 2026 (UTC)

Cities with the dialects

Under Dialects, there's a feature that says Cities with more than 100,000 inhabitants in the area: followed by a list. This seems helpful and a good idea; however, the wording of the part I just quoted is difficult to understand, for at least two reasons:

• Does this mean 100,000 inhabitants who speak the dialect, or 100,000 inhabitants in total?
• Does "in the area" mean "cities that are in a region where this dialect is significant", or "the figure of 100,000 includes each city's surrounding area, ignoring official boundaries" - or something else?

We certainly don't need long explanations like the ones I just gave; I was explaining exactly how to misunderstand. :) But I think the text I quoted (which appears the same way several times) needs to be rewritten to make the meaning clearer. I suspect that the person who wrote it knows the subject so well that it seemed perfectly obvious to them. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 16:13, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

I might suggest "Cities where at least 100,000 people in the area speak this dialect" - except I can't be sure if that's what it really means. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 16:23, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

I think the cities should be removed. City dwellers are more likely to speak standard German or one of the new Regiolects or Sociolects than the traditional dialects and the information is unsourced.—Ermenrich (talk) 16:42, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

If it's both unsourced and likely to be inaccurate, then I agree with you. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 16:45, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Here's a particularly egregious example: most people in Strasbourg do not speak Alsatian (or German of any sort).--Ermenrich (talk) 17:27, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

German in Ukraine

I've added Ukraine to the infobox as German is one of the 18 languages protected in Ukraine according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, though it does not correspond to any specific areas. Although the invisible comment states "not [to] add countries or dependencies without consulting the talk page and citing definite sources", I believe the addition should be uncontroversial given the source that I added. I'm still making a comment here in case any discussion is necessary. Shwabb1 ⟨taco⟩ 08:50, 16 June 2026 (UTC)