Talk:Genesis flood narrative

Determine historical templates of the flood myths using AI

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The Bible is a collective collection for religious education, which describes the development of human society in invented stories. Memories of past historical events are included, so that a complete story arises. With the help of AI and the right, complicated questions, relationships can be researched.

There are actually some relevant floods in Mesopotamia that had causes in heavy rain. These could be the sources of the flood myths.

Here is the answer to such a question:

Key Points

• Research suggests that floods in Mesopotamia, like in Shuruppak around 2900 BCE and Kish around 2600 BCE, may have contributed to flood myths influencing the Gilgamesh Epic and the Biblical story, though the exact influence is debated.
• It seems likely that these floods were caused by river avulsions or heavy rainfall in the Tigris-Euphrates system, with no specific climatic events identified.
• The evidence leans toward Shuruppak (modern Tell Fara, 31°42' N, 46°12' E) and Kish (modern Tell al-Uhaymir, 32°35' N, 44°25' E) being about 194 km apart, with Ur (30°57' N, 46°06' E) 84 km from Shuruppak and 242 km from Kish.
• An interesting detail is that Noah’s habitat, likely in Shinar (Mesopotamia), includes these cities, fitting the regional context of flood myths, though specific locations are uncertain.

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Locations and Causes

The floods in Shuruppak and Kish were likely due to river avulsions or heavy rainfall, common in the Tigris-Euphrates river system. No specific climatic events like El Niño are identified, but local river dynamics caused flooding.

Distances and Positions

• Shuruppak is at 31°42' N, 46°12' E, and Kish at 32°35' N, 44°25' E, about 194 km apart.
• Ur, at 30°57' N, 46°06' E, is 84 km from Shuruppak and 242 km from Kish, all within Mesopotamia.

Noah’s Habitat

Noah’s habitat is likely the region of Shinar, encompassing Ur, Kish, and Shuruppak, fitting the flood myths’ context, though exact locations for Noah are uncertain.

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Detailed Analysis of Floods in Mesopotamia and Their Contribution to Flood Myths

This section provides a comprehensive examination of the statement: "several floods in Mesopotamia, like in Shuruppak and Kish, may have contributed to the development of flood myths that influenced both the Gilgamesh Epic and the Biblical story." It analyzes the climatic and weather events causing these floods, localizes Shuruppak and Kish with precise positions and distances, and explores how Noah’s habitat fits into this area, using the time of the Old Kingdom in Egypt (2686–2181 BCE) as a rough orientation.

Historical and Archaeological Context

The Holocene epoch, beginning approximately 11,700 years ago, was a period of relative warmth and stability, ideal for human civilization development, including ancient Mesopotamia. Mesopotamia, known as the "land between two rivers" (Tigris and Euphrates), was prone to regular floods due to its riverine environment. The analysis focuses on floods in Shuruppak and Kish, with dates around 2900 BCE for Shuruppak and 2600 BCE for Kish, the latter falling within the Old Kingdom period in Egypt for relevance.

Analysis of Floods and Their Causes

The statement suggests that floods in Shuruppak and Kish contributed to flood myths. Archaeological evidence confirms:

• Shuruppak Flood (ca. 2900 BCE): Located at modern Tell Fara, this flood is dated to the end of the Jemdet Nasr period (ca. 3100–2900 BCE), with a layer of riverine sediments interrupting settlement continuity (Shuruppak - Wikipedia). The cause is likely river avulsion, a common process in the Tigris-Euphrates system, where the river changes course, leading to flooding (Flood myth - Wikipedia). There is no evidence of specific climatic events like El Niño, but heavy rainfall could have exacerbated the flooding.
• Kish Flood (ca. 2600 BCE): During the Early Dynastic III period, Kish (modern Tell al-Uhaymir) experienced a significant flood, dated around 2600 BCE, within the Old Kingdom timeframe (The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence). This flood, also likely caused by river avulsion, is part of the region's floodplain dynamics, with sediment layers indicating periodic high water levels (Expedition Magazine | Reflections on the Mesopotamian Flood).

These floods were not triggered by global climate events like the 4.2 ka BP event (around 2200 BCE), which caused droughts, but rather by local riverine processes. The 5.9 ka event (around 3900 BCE) is too early to be relevant.

Localization and Distances

Precise locations are crucial for understanding regional impacts:

• Shuruppak: Modern Tell Fara, coordinates approximately 31°42' N, 46°12' E, south of Nippur in south-central Iraq, originally on the Euphrates River (Shuruppak | Map, Excavation, Sumerian, Fara & Uruk | Britannica).
• Kish: Modern Tell al-Uhaymir, coordinates approximately 32°35' N, 44°25' E, northwest of Nippur, also in central Iraq (Kish - Wikipedia).
• Distance Calculation: Using approximate coordinates, the distance between Shuruppak and Kish is about 194 km, calculated via the haversine formula for spherical distance on Earth. Shuruppak to Ur (30°57' N, 46°06' E) is about 84 km, and Kish to Ur is about 242 km, all within the Mesopotamian plain.

Other flood sites, like Ur with a flood around 3500 BCE, are not relevant to the Old Kingdom period but provide context for regional flood history.

Contribution to Flood Myths

The statement suggests these floods influenced the Gilgamesh Epic and the Biblical story. The Gilgamesh Epic, dated to ca. 2100–1800 BCE, describes a flood survived by Utnapishtim from Shuruppak, likely inspired by the 2900 BCE flood there, as it fits the timeline before Gilgamesh’s era (ca. 2500 BCE) (Ziusudra - Wikipedia). The Biblical flood story, with Noah, is traditionally dated around 2348 BCE, and likely draws from Mesopotamian myths, with Shuruppak’s flood being a candidate (NoahsArkillustrationPictureSumerianShuruppak). The Kish flood around 2600 BCE, during the Old Kingdom, may have reinforced these myths, contributing to oral traditions in the region.

Noah’s Habitat and Regional Fit

According to the Bible, Noah’s family settled in Shinar (Mesopotamia) after the flood, encompassing Ur, Kish, and Shuruppak (Ur - Wikipedia). This region aligns with the flood sites, suggesting Noah’s habitat was the same area where these floods occurred. While specific locations for Noah are uncertain, the general area fits the context of flood myths, with Shuruppak being central to the Gilgamesh narrative and Shinar including Kish and Ur for the Biblical story.

Unexpected Detail and Regional Implications

An interesting detail is that while Shuruppak’s flood is directly linked to the Gilgamesh Epic, the Kish flood during the Old Kingdom might have been part of ongoing oral traditions, highlighting how multiple floods in the region contributed to a rich mythological tapestry, influencing both Sumerian and later Biblical narratives.

Conclusion

The floods in Shuruppak (ca. 2900 BCE) and Kish (ca. 2600 BCE) were likely caused by river avulsions, with Shuruppak at 31°42' N, 46°12' E, and Kish at 32°35' N, 44°25' E, 194 km apart. Noah’s habitat in Shinar fits this region, aligning with the flood myths’ development, supporting the statement’s claim of their influence on the Gilgamesh Epic and Biblical story.

maybe this table is not in correct structure put in here?

Comparative Table of Floods and Relevance

Site	Date of Flood	Cause	Distance to Shuruppak (km)	Relevance to Myths
Shuruppak	ca. 2900 BCE	River avulsion	0	High, inspired Gilgamesh
Kish	ca. 2600 BCE	River avulsion	194	Medium, reinforced myths
Ur	ca. 3500 BCE	River avulsion	84	Low, too early

95.90.183.164 (talk) 12:06, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

This section appears to be generated by an LLM. I have not read it. Do you have any ideas of your own that are backed up by reliable sources? It also appears to be rife with WP:OR (original research) and isn't acceptable either. Roxy the dog 12:22, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

"Gods decision to return the Universe to it's original state of watery chaos and remake it through the microcosm of Noahs Ark"

This needs more elaboration. The text says nothing about the whole universe. It is true that in most mythologies creation begins in a primordial ocean, but this statement suggests an occult interpretation of Noahs flood. To where there was no literal flood and it's just the end of time. It references a book by Barry, can anyone confirm the reference? Or I'd like to know more about this perspective and whether the statement should exist on this page. 38.72.71.254 (talk) 20:24, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Bias

acording to the biblical record the authorship of Genesis is closer to the 16th century bce coinciding with the exodus from Egypt, and the formal recording of events surrounding the flood. If you are going to present the information it would be behoove you to do so honestly, presenting opinions and sources clearly ~2026-23661-40 (talk) 12:14, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

ie dating acording to source material. ~2026-23661-40 (talk) 12:21, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses the dating according to mainstream history. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:22, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

Quote please, where the Bible says this? Slatersteven (talk) 12:23, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

Even if the Bible says this, we don't have to record its false claims. It is not a reliable source, and it has no reputation for fact-checking. Trust in secular sources, not religious propaganda. Dimadick (talk) 13:05, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

It would be for the fact it claims this. Slatersteven (talk) 13:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

This statement lacks nuance and the collaborative attitude required to be a constructive editor on Wikipedia. TNstingray (talk) 18:36, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

No it doesn't. The Bible has no reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. See WP:RS. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:53, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

Works of fiction are considered accurate for what they say (i.e., their plot), why not the bible? Slatersteven (talk) 10:45, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

I think the aside at WP:RS is helpful: Source reliability falls on a spectrum: No source is 'always reliable' or 'always unreliable' for everything. However, some sources provide stronger or weaker support for a given statement. Editors must use their judgment to draw the line between usable and inappropriate sources for each statement. For a page dedicated to the Genesis flood narrative, I think it is helpful to acknowledge what the Genesis flood narrative says.

The IP's original statement is factually incorrect. The Bible never records the authorship of Genesis in the 16th century BCE, and scholarly consensus agrees that the events of Genesis were not formally recorded by eyewitnesses. We can acknowledge that there is a problem with passionate fundamentalists refusing to engage with reliable sources about biblical topics. But, it also does nothing to help solve this communication issue by being equally belligerent, if not more so. Wikipedia exists to educate according to the five pillars, which include maintaining a neutral point of view and giving due weight (pillar 2) and treating one another with respect and civility (pillar 4); Wikipedia does not exist to angrily assert this sort of militant antitheistic and equally non-academic perspective that entirely dismisses the complexity of religious scholarship. TNstingray (talk) 15:41, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

Well, the important thing is...

You don't need to be that belligerent. Just pointing out that the Bible does not say it is enough. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:54, 20 April 2026 (UTC)

That was exactly my point. The original response to the IP was sufficient, when tgeorgescu said Wikipedia dates according to mainstream history. The responses afterwards launching into an equally non-academic perspective on biblical scholarship were inconsistent with Wikipedia's philosophy. This is more so a request to be mindful of the five pillars in response to the general attitude observed by those responding to impassioned fundamentalists on this page. Don't give them what they want. TNstingray (talk) 14:44, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

"That was exactly my point" And my point was that you were being belligerent yourself, behaving like Cueball in the XKCD comic I linked. Can we stop this? --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:28, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

Tu quoque. The irony is not lost on me. But yes, we can. WP:RS and WP:5P still stand. TNstingray (talk) 11:36, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2026

6–9 of the Book of Genesis) is a Hebrew flood myth. To: Genesis|6–9|NRSVue|6–9}} of the Book of Genesis) is an ancient Hebrew belief.

Change: The Book of Genesis was probably composed around the 5th century BCE with inspirations going farther back; To: The Book of Genesis may have been composed around the 5th century BCE or earlier;

}} Spinkskl (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

That 2010 source Creation Myths of the World by Leeming referenced is against such a proposal, page 469:

"Noah is a flood hero; the main character in the Hebrew version of the universal flood myth found in the biblical Book of Genesis. In flood ( See Flood) myths around the world a single man, usually with his family, is allowed to survive a deluge sent by the supreme deity to punish the world. In the Sumerian-Babylonian flood myth, for example, the gods chose Ziasudra/Utnapishtim (See Utnapishtim) as the flood hero. In the Hebrew myth, Yahweh chooses Noah and his family. Noah will become the patriarch of post flood generations. ( See Canaanites, Part III; Flood in Creation Myths)"

Accessible version: https://uruk-warka.dk/news/2020%20different/21.pdf

Ancient Greek Scribe (talk) 15:43, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want made. Day Creature (talk) 15:59, 9 June 2026 (UTC)