Talk:General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon

Statement is under review

Detailed Explanation of Taiwan's Involvement in the F-16V Program on a Timeline, Particularly Reviewing the Claim of "Initial Investment in R&D." The development timeline of the F-16V clearly shows the maturity of its core technologies occurring before Taiwan's significant financial investment. This strongly demonstrates that Taiwan's role has been as the "largest customer" and "industrial partner," rather than as the "initial R&D investor of core technologies."

Below are the timeline details of the F-16V project development and Taiwan's participation: Comparison of F-16V Project Development Timeline and Taiwan's Participation

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Timeframe: Around 2010-2012: Lockheed Martin conducted internal R&D on the F-16V concept. The U.S. Air Force (USAF) began investing over $1.5 billion in RDT&E (Research, Development, Test, and Evaluation) funding for core technologies (such as the AN/APG-83 AESA radar). Taiwan did not make direct investments in the initial R&D of the F-16V's core technologies, which were primarily funded by the U.S. Core technology RDT&E was mainly sponsored by the USAF. February 2012: The F-16V "Viper" technical standard was officially announced at the Singapore Airshow. Taiwan had no direct involvement. The F-16V technical standard was established. July 2012: Taiwan's AIDC signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Lockheed Martin. This MOU mainly focused on future industrial cooperation, such as technology transfer and local production of parts. This was a preliminary agreement on industrial cooperation, not a direct R&D investment agreement, emphasizing industrial cooperation and subsequent execution. October 2015: The first upgraded V-model successfully made its maiden flight, proving that the F-16V as a technical standard had matured. Taiwan had no direct involvement. The F-16V core technology was mature and in flight. Around 2016 and beyond: With the technical standards established and mature, Taiwan began significant financial investment in fleet upgrades, specifically the "Peace Phoenix Rising" program, upgrading 139 existing F-16A/Bs to V-model standards. This project is estimated to cost about $5.3 billion. Major financial investment began after technological maturity. 2019: The U.S. DSCA approved the sale of 66 new F-16 Block 70 aircraft to Taiwan. Taiwan signed a contract for the procurement of new aircraft, estimated to cost about $8 billion. Taiwan's total financial investment (for upgrades and new purchases) through the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) mechanism exceeded $13 billion. FMS customers procure mature products and services. Later (such as contract revisions in 2021): System integration activities took place. Taiwan paid approximately $138 million in customized R&D fees to integrate specific systems (such as the Auto-GCAS anti-collision system and AGM-88 anti-radiation missiles) into its unique Block 20 fleet. This falls under implementation R&D, not initial design of core technologies. 2024: The upgrade program continues. Taiwan's Peace Phoenix Rising program (upgrading 139 aircraft) is completed or nearing completion. The AIDC MRO center, as an outcome of industrial cooperation, has enhanced local logistical autonomy. This is a strategic investment in maintenance capability, rather than R&D of the aircraft itself.

Timeline Analysis and Conclusion This timeline reveals several key facts that refute the claim of "Taiwan's initial investment in F-16V R&D": Logical Contradiction in Timing: The F-16V as a technical standard (Viper) was announced by Lockheed Martin (2012) and the first prototype successfully flew (October 2015) before Taiwan began significant project funding (around 2016). This indicates that Taiwan's substantial expenditure was for the procurement and upgrade of an already existing and mature technical standard, rather than funding its invention from scratch. Source of Core R&D Funding: The fundamental R&D funding for the F-16V's core upgrade technologies, such as the AN/APG-83 AESA radar, primarily came from the USAF's RDT&E budget, totaling over $1.5 billion, as recorded in official defense budget documents. Nature of the Funding: The over $13 billion Taiwan invested was mainly through the FMS mechanism for purchasing new aircraft and upgrading old ones. FMS is fundamentally a government-to-government procurement transaction, making Taiwan a "customer," not a "co-developer" or "initial RDT&E investor." Distinction in Customized R&D: Although Taiwan did indeed spend approximately $138 million in FMS funding for R&D, this was for later-stage system integration and customization (Implementation R&D). This funding aimed to better integrate purchased systems (such as Auto-GCAS) into Taiwan's unique F-16A/B Block 20 fleet, differing in nature from the foundational R&D that created the F-16V standard.

In Summary The timeline clearly establishes Taiwan as the world's largest and most important strategic customer of the F-16V program, not as the initial technical founding shareholder. Taiwan's significant financial investment has ensured the continuity of the F-16 production line and has secured local maintenance autonomy, which itself is a substantial strategic achievement.

Based on the above information, hope someone can provide a detailed assessment and clear explanation of the validity of the statement reported by Taiwanese media that both Taiwan and the U.S. initially invested in the development of the F-16V. ~2025-31798-90 (talk) 02:40, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

Was this written by AI? - ZLEA ^TǀC 03:04, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

That's the result of machine translation from Chinese to English. I've seen similar materials elsewhere, but since I have too little information, I won't comment on the content. Without supporting materials, censorship is too troublesome. This video Chinese might be helpful to you. ThomasTYWan (talk) 04:31, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

I doubt it. I don't speak Chinese, and that video is from a channel that... shares a similar name to your newly-created account. Hold on, did you come here just to promote your YouTube channel? - ZLEA ^TǀC 06:08, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

I’d like to clarify the misunderstanding first: My YouTube channel is merely a convenient platform for archiving and sharing public information related to the topic, with no intention of promotion.

I fully respect Wikipedia’s core principle of "verifiability" and understand your vigilance against promotional behavior.

If you still have concerns about my intent, I’m open to following Wikipedia’s community guidelines for further communication. ThomasTYWan (talk) 07:11, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

That's fine, then. We do need reliable sources to verify all content on Wikipedia. Per WP:RSPYT, a vast majority of YouTube videos do not meet our standards for reliable sources, with a few exceptions such as videos from a news organization. - ZLEA ^TǀC 18:06, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

I should also point out a relative problem: the relevant guidelines do not provide a reasonable platform for handling external MP4 or M4A files. This is why I uploaded my YouTube channel; I apologize for any inconvenience caused. ThomasTYWan (talk) 23:44, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

The statement is misleading and largely inaccurate. While Taiwan is a significant customer and has invested heavily in the F-16V program, it was not an "initial investor in R&D," particularly concerning the core technologies.

Here's a breakdown of why:

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Timeline Discrepancy: The core technologies of the F-16V, such as the AN/APG-83 AESA radar, were under development and matured before Taiwan's major financial involvement. Lockheed Martin internally researched the F-16V concept around 2010-2012. The U.S. Air Force (USAF) invested over $1.5 billion in RDT&E for these core technologies. The F-16V technical standard was officially announced in February 2012. Taiwan's significant financial investment began around 2016 and beyond, primarily for fleet upgrades.

Source of Core R&D Funding: The primary funding for the F-16V's core technology R&D came from the USAF's RDT&E budget.

Nature of Taiwan's Investment: Taiwan's major financial contributions were primarily through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) mechanism. FMS is a procurement process where a country purchases mature, existing military products and services from another government. Taiwan acted as a customer, purchasing upgrades and new aircraft, rather than a co-developer or initial investor.

Customized R&D vs. Initial R&D: Taiwan did invest in R&D, but this was mainly for system integration and customization to integrate specific systems into its existing F-16A/B Block 20 fleet. This is different from the initial R&D that established the F-16V as a technical standard.

Peace Phoenix Rising Program: Taiwan's "Peace Phoenix Rising" program, which upgraded 139 F-16A/Bs to F-16V standards, began after the F-16V technical standard was already established. This program, estimated to cost $4.5 billion, focused on upgrading existing aircraft with mature technology.

Procurement of New Aircraft: Taiwan also signed a contract to procure 66 new F-16 Block 70 aircraft, estimated to cost $8 billion. This is another example of Taiwan purchasing a mature product through the FMS system.

In summary: Taiwan is a major strategic customer of the F-16V program, ensuring the production line's continuity and securing local maintenance autonomy. However, it was not an initial investor in the core technology R&D of the F-16V. The core technologies were primarily funded and developed by the U.S., with Taiwan's significant financial investment occurring later for procurement and upgrades.

Read more:

Lockheed Martin wins $1.85bn contract to upgrade Taiwan's F-16s | News | Flight Global

Lockheed Wins $138M Taiwan's Peace Phoenix Rising Program - Defense Mirror

F-16V Fighters For Taiwan: $8 Billion Well Spent? Yes and No. - The National Interest

How F-16 Testers Are Evolving The Jet's New Radar Beyond The Homeland Defense Mission - The War Zone

Lean-Agile Methods for F-16 AESA Radar Integration - Defense Advancement

F-16V (Viper) Fighting Falcon Multi-role Fighter Aircraft - Air Force Technology

Meet the F-16V: The Most Technologically Advanced 4th Generation Fighter in the World

AN/APG-83 - Wikipedia

AN/APG-83 - Radartutorial.eu

Taiwan's F-16 Upgrade Program Is Back on Schedule - The Diplomat

Air force set to receive 66 F-16V jets over two years - Taipei Times

US Air Force budget request leans toward R&D, trims fighter purchases - Defense News

Department of Defense Fiscal Year (FY) 2026 Budget Estimates - Air Force Financial Management

US Arms Sales to Taiwan - Forum on the Arms Trade

Taiwan Cleared for $1.8 Billion Worth of FMS Purchases - Defense Security Monitor

Taiwan to Receive First Two U.S.-Made MQ-9B SkyGuardian Drones by Late 2026

State Department Clears Taiwan's $228M FMS Request for Military Aircraft Spare Parts

Taiwan Seeks Air Defense Equipment As Part of Overall FMS Package | InsideDefense.com

Lockheed is Developing Systems for the Peace Phoenix Rising Program

Lockheed WinsAwarded $138 Million Contract For Taiwan's Peace Phoenix Rising Program

Taiwan's Final Upgraded F-16V Completes Test Flights - The War Zone

First Phase of Taiwan F-16V Program Is Complete - Air & Space Forces Magazine

Taiwan to get upgraded F-16V fighter jets after US arms sale approved

Response to ZLEA and ThomasTYWan:

To ZLEA: Your concerns about the source and reliability of information are valid. It's crucial to verify information, especially on topics like this, with reliable sources. As you pointed out, YouTube videos often don't meet Wikipedia's standards for reliable sourcing.

To ThomasTYWan: Thank you for providing the video link. While it might offer some insights, it's important to ensure the information aligns with established and verifiable sources to maintain the integrity of the information. I appreciate your willingness to adhere to Wikipedia's guidelines. ~2025-31981-66 (talk) 00:01, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

@ThomasTYWan and ~2025-31981-66: Signing out of your account to give the impression of additional people agreeing with you is against policy—see WP:LOUTSOCK. I am going to collapse your WP:WALLOFTEXT, as it is disruptive to any other editors who may wish to discuss this article. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:42, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

M61 ammo count

from what I've seen the ammo amount is only 500 not 511? As according to https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104505/f-16-fighting-falcon/

im not sure where 511 was from, a source for that number would be nice and if the number was wrong, a correction would be nice to sustain the accuracy of Wikipedia. ~2026-26251-3 (talk) 08:41, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

The figure was added way back in 2006 by an IP editor. They made similar changes to other M61-equipped types at the same time, possible vandalism and definitely unsourced. The cited USAF factsheet states 500 rounds. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 10:31, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Various inaccuracy about F16 block 50/52 specs

ferry range, height (in meters), empty weight, engine thrust and likely more I didn't spot are all uncited and according to source 75 or this (https://www.shaw.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/663884/f-16c-fighting-falcon/) is just wrong ~2026-26251-3 (talk) 12:18, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

By uncited I assume that you mean there is no citation number on each line? To avoid clutter and confusion aircraft specification sections should ideally use only one source with one citation for all parameters (this is is entered in the |ref= parameter of the coding). A good example would be Slingsby T67 Firefly#Specifications (T-3A), the reader assumes good faith and trusts that the values are true to the source and that the adding editor has made no mistakes. Values that are not in the single source cited would have a citation to the different source on its own line.

The waters become muddied when enthusiasts add multiple sources with slightly conflicting information, the solution is to revert to using one good easily verifiable source, Janes publications are often used, flight manuals are not easily accessible and are too detailed (non-encyclopedic).

Conversions - Template:Aircraft specs is designed to automatically convert units from one system to the other, the conversions can be overridden by manually entering the converted value, that has not been done here. Checking the dimension conversions I can see no errors other than millimeter precise values due to the default rounding. The template uses the Wiki-wide rounding convention to avoid false precision and a sea of unencyclopedic numbers (conversions to four decimal places etc). The rounding of a parameter can be modified to alter the number of significant figures, usually to reduce them. The template has a lingering fault of converting to too many significant figures, it usually happens when overly-precise feet, inches and fractions of inches have been entered (verbatim from the source), also not the case here. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 12:59, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

I understand that we try to keep to one source to avoid conflicting information but we already use that source above, that is source 75. the height was a little bit of a nitpick I understand that. the statement that they don't add sources on every line makes sense but we see this

Ferry range: 2,277 nmi (2,620 mi, 4,217 km) with three drop tanks

Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,000 m) [75]

the service ceiling used source 75 which is www.shaw.af... but just above it is ferry range which implied using source 75 to refer to for that information, yet despite (from what I inferred) using source 75, it doesn't line up with that same source. though this could be a case as you stated where the information isn't easily accessible if this were to be the case that's understandable. thanks for clearing things up and I will keep this information in mind for future reference ~2026-28418-9 (talk) 03:18, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

A citation on a line below a value does not infer that the value immediately above is from the same source. There were two extra '75' citations that were redundant, removed. Sometimes editors question where a value came from, not understanding the single source/citation convention which results in redundant citations being added. The questioning editors are effectively not assuming good faith and/or the question wasn't fully answered on the talk page. Ideally this section should be edited down to use one source, the USAF fact sheet is dated 2021 so relatively current but doesn't have enough information to complete the template parameters (which is not mandatory). Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 10:33, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

There are three highly compelling pieces of evidence that refute the claim that "Taiwan spent 3.8 billion to invent the F-16V"

The timeline does not align. The F-16V already existed before Taiwan made large-scale payments: on February 15, 2012, at the Singapore Airshow, Lockheed Martin formally unveiled the F-16V configuration, which involved installing the AN/APG-83 AESA radar and a new mission computer. On October 16, 2015, the first F-16V completed its maiden flight, validating the entire configuration. As for Taiwan’s “Feng Zhan Project,” the United States announced a US$530 million upgrade package in 2011, after which Taiwan submitted a Letter of Request and signed an LOA in 2012; this was for upgrading 144 in-service F-16 Block 20 aircraft, and large-scale work only began at AIDC after 2016. The technology was already flying before the check was written, so it could not have been early-stage research and development.

What exactly is the US$3.8 billion for? This is the most confusing aspect of defense procurement. The table is correct: mode, definition, Taiwan's role. NRE / Research and Development: funding for inventing something new; Taiwan is the developer. FMS / Foreign Military Sale: funding for purchasing off-the-shelf products; Taiwan is the customer. Industrial Cooperation: the seller must invest locally; Taiwan is the partner. Objective records show that the US$3.8 billion falls under FMS, not NRE. The US-Taiwan Business Association announced that the LOA amount for upgrading 145 F-16A/B aircraft was exactly US$3.8 billion. According to Taiwan's military, the NT$110 billion (approximately US$3.8 billion) was a cooperative upgrade program between AIDC and Lockheed. The original 2011 DSCA package was US$5.3 billion, of which Taiwan's budget covered a portion. Lockheed received a US$1.85 billion upgrade contract in October 2012. Therefore, the US$3.8 billion was for "purchasing upgrade services," not for "investing in invention." Why, then, do some people claim that Taiwan paid R&D fees? A key episode explains this. The U.S. Air Force originally had a parallel CAPES (Combat Avionics Programmed Extension Suite) program to upgrade its own 300 F-16s, with a budget of roughly US$1.9 billion, but it was canceled in the FY2015 budget. Official records clearly state that after the U.S. Air Force abandoned CAPES, Taiwan was forced to absorb additional testing costs. Another report also noted that, within the 2011 US$5.3 billion package, Taiwan paid approximately 30% of the development costs. This 30% refers to "customization and integration testing fees," such as integrating the Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS) into Taiwan's fleet, not the core invention cost of the F-16V's AESA radar itself. In other words, Taiwan paid for a special set of rims, not for designing the engine.

Where did the more than $13 billion go? This actually shows that Taiwan is a major customer. Upgrading existing aircraft: the Phoenix Rising program, at approximately $4.2–5.3 billion. New aircraft procurement: in 2019, the U.S. State Department approved the sale of 66 new F-16C/D Block 70 fighters for $8 billion, and the same announcement confirmed they would be the latest Block 70 variant. $4.2 billion plus $8 billion equals $12.2 billion; adding ammunition, logistics, and 20 years of maintenance and support, a total exceeding $13 billion is entirely reasonable. This also explains why the F-16V is being exported today to countries such as Bahrain, Slovakia, and Bulgaria: Taiwan, as the largest customer, has kept the production line running. Regarding the third role mentioned, that of an industrial cooperation partner, there is also official documentation: in December 2019, AIDC signed a strategic cooperation agreement with Lockheed to establish an F-16 maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) center in Taiwan, and the Presidential Office has described this as a result of Taiwan-U.S. defense industry cooperation.

Based on the available information, the conclusion is that Taiwan is not a co-developer of the F-16V, but it has been instrumental in ensuring the program's survival. Without Taiwan's willingness to assume testing costs after the CAPES program was canceled, and its subsequent $8 billion purchase of 66 new aircraft, Lockheed Martin would likely have shut down the production line to focus on the F-35. Therefore, the term "investor" can be somewhat misleading. By FMS standards, a more precise description would be: a strategic-tier major customer, a customized-project funder, and an MRO industry partner. The importance of this role is by no means diminished; it is simply a form of contribution fundamentally different from that of an "inventor."

Are there more objective data available to substantiate or refute the validity of this content?

Main references

twz.com Taiwan Loses F-16V After Just Two Months Of Frontline Operations (Updated)

globaldefensecorp.com Taiwan Upgrades 18 F-16A/B to F-16V Standard

armyrecognition.com US to Upgrade Taiwan's F-16A/B Fighters to F-16V Standard to Boost Combat Capabilities

trade.gov Taiwan - Aerospace and Defense

taipeitimes.com F-16A/B upgrade not enough: council - Taipei Times

twz.com Taiwan’s Upgraded F-16V Fighter Jets Poised To Start Standing Alert Along The Taiwan Strait

businesstimes.com.sg US State Dept approves sale of 66 F-16 fighters to Taiwan

executivebiz.com Taiwan’s Aerospace Industrial Development Corp. Begins F-16 Modernization Work - ExecutiveBiz

aljazeera.com US approves $8bn sale of 66 F-16 fighters to Taiwan

air.mnd.gov.tw F-16 Maintenance Center Achievement Presentation President Tsai: Full Effort for National Defense Capability and Resilience

export-u.com Taiwan 2020 (https://export-u.com/CCGs/2020/Taiwan-2020-CCG.pdf)

key.aero F-16 Block 70/72: All you need to know about the most

dsm.forecastinternational.com Proposed F-16V Sale to Taiwan Makes Headway - Defense Security Monitor

m.kaskus.co.id F-16V radar integration clears way for Taiwan upgrade

military.com Budget Doesn't Delay F-16 Life Extension Upgrades Semmy2797 (talk) 14:28, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

@Semmy2797: Do you mind quoting the text in the article that you believe should be changed? As best I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any proposed alterations in your comment above. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:43, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

The point of contention concerns the appropriateness of the phrasing: "First flight took place 21 October 2015. Taiwanese media reported that Taiwan and the U.S. both initially invested in the development of the F-16V." I am personally uncertain whether a clarifying note on the definition of "invested" should be added to the content. Semmy2797 (talk) 17:28, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

With your initial comment, you seem to be arguing that something that isn't in the article (a claim about $3.8 in Taiwanese investment in the F-16V) should be altered or removed. Your reply above instead says that "invested" is incorrect. However, reliable sources like the Taipei Times () indicate that they did invest in the program's development. The only word that I could imagine might need removal is "initial". Regardless, I'm not seeing much need for change. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:41, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Never suggested that "Taipei Time" is untrustworthy or problematic. The subsequent clarification, "If use standard FMS terminology, Taiwan's precise role in the F-16V program is not that of an inventor, but rather a strategic-level primary customer, a sponsor of a customized project, and an MRO industry partner," is not inherently contradictory. However, if this is being deliberately blurred for the sake of certain positions, then there is little more to be said. best, Semmy2797 (talk) 02:44, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

And Lockheed Martin until 2017*

Proposing removal of 'until 2017' from the opening paragrapgh. Perusing citation 3 indicates nothing about LM Aero shutting down production in 2017, and later citations such as 327 make it clear that they are currently building brand new F-16s in the "Viper config" or Block 70 variant. Is this sentence supposed to indicate that the LM F-16s (V config) currently being built in Greenville, SC are NOT "General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon"s? Danielstats (talk) 15:30, 30 September 2026 (UTC)

I have removed "until 2017". It appears the sentence wasn't updated when production resumed. - ZLEA ^TǀC 16:32, 30 September 2026 (UTC)