Talk:Gasr

No relation to qasr, ksar?

See qasr, ksar. Arminden (talk) 13:31, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

Missing basic data; wording reaks of nonsensical propaganda

Endless mess, confusion, and lack of the most essential data. Sub-standard to a level where it deserves being deleted and sent back to the sandbox.

1. None of the 3 sources is accessible on Google Books. Pls offer quotations, to see what they're ACTUALLY saying.
2. WHEN were the gsur built?
3. WHO built the gsur?
4. Relation to centenaria built by "invading Roman forces"?! The word "invading" suggests the gsur existed BEFORE the Roman conquest. Really? Carthage fell in 146 BCE! Or is this "patriotic" BS? And how can allegedly pre-Roman structures be related to Roman fortified farms from the time of Trajan (r. 98-117) & Sept. Severus (r. 193-211) onward? Why "invading", since Romans had been the masters for over 2.5 centuries by the time centenaria were 1st built under Trajan, and they "invaded" to fight the Phoenicians, who had "invaded" North Africa coming from the Levant and had previously "invaded" Italy, threatening Rome? This is an encyclopaedia, not Ghaddafi's Green Book. OR IS IT THE OTHER WAY 'ROUND, gsur came AFTER the centenaria? So centuries after the Romans had invaded Carthaginian territory?
5. If possibly related: how exactly? Seems essential.

Arminden (talk) 14:11, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

Proper source, pls add info

... since real life's calling me.

https://www.academia.edu/16366734/The_Gsur_of_Tripolitania_An_Analysis_of_a_Roman_Defense_System_in_North_Africa

"The Gsur of Tripolitania: An Analysis of a Roman Defense System in North Africa

By Max Huemer

The gsur are fortified farmhouses located along seasonal rivers called wadis, and despite the desert climate of the region, produced vast amounts of foodstuffs, especially olive oil. The gsur appear in their earliest form in the first century BCE and continued into the Arab invasions, when they fell out of use and farming in the region disappeared almost completely. Most of the gsur are located in the hinterland of Tripolitania, a region in modern Libya. They number in the hundreds and were largely undocumented until the UNESCO Libyan Valleys Survey conducted by David Mattingly, Graeme Barker, et al., which provides a comprehensive survey of most of the gsur. Scholars have debated whether or not these structures served a defensive purpose. Using the archaeological and epigraphic evidence found in the ULVS and elsewhere, and drawing parallels to the northern border of Britannia and Hadrian's Wall, I will demonstrate that the gsur of Tripolitania were in fact a part of a larger frontier control scheme, which can be found elsewhere in the Roman world. The scheme used the gsur in conjunction with other defensive installations such as the clausurae and forts elsewhere in the region to control and observe movement." Arminden (talk) 14:31, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

So if Huemer is right, they were built under Roman rule (!), probably to defend against nomadic desert raiders. Nothing to do with "invading Romans". The relation to in part contemporary centenaria does then become very relevant: did they complement each other as part of the limes? Civilian farms & garrisoned ones as part of one system? Plenty to research on and flesh out this stub. Arminden (talk) 14:36, 22 September 2025 (UTC)