Talk:Ganges

Correct River Name to what it is called in ever text written in history

Correct Ganges to Ganga 1 is written as 1 not 2 Sandysandp (talk) 15:27, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Bob the minion (talk) 22:55, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

I believe it's a proposal to rename the page, which I support. In India, in Indian English, which this article should be written in because English is spoken in India and the article has to do with India, it is called Ganga. Counting everything from "See also" to "External links", there are 63 uses of "Ganga", 62 of "Ganges", and 5 of "Padma". Not only is "Ganga" the more relevant name in the regional dialect, but it's equally, if not slightly more, common in the source material this article draws on. We aren't Britannica; we don't have to sound British. 1101 (talk) 10:19, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

"Ganga river" - About 4,550,000 results.

"Ganges river" - About 4,590,000 results.

They are about equally common, but variation is regional. Ganga is the more common name in the region the Ganga is in. 1101 (talk) 10:23, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Google hits are not reliable for this purpose. If you consult NGrams you'll get relevant data. And if you include the most common way it is referred to in english, 'The Ganges', that overshadows all other options. MrOllie (talk) 11:55, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Your last statement is an opinion. English is spoken by tens of millions of Indians, and in Indian English, usage of Ganga is much more than Ganges. And by the way, this river is culturally most relevant to India, so the common name used over there should be the one used.

PS: You may argue "why not Padma then?". Padma is a distributary of Ganga. Smart Sherlock (talk) 06:36, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Your last statement is an opinion. I gave a link to the data supporting my statement, you have not. MrOllie (talk) 11:52, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Ganga+river%2CGanges+river%2CThe+Ganges%2CThe+Ganja%2Cganga%2C+the+ganga&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&case_insensitive=true&corpus=en&smoothing=0#

Look here. Smart Sherlock (talk) 12:30, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Here is the data for the past year. The result is overwhelming, and worldwide. By the way, I am American-born and even I say Ganga, not Ganges. Ganges sounds extremely British to me. 1101 (talk) 13:16, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Oh, and on YouTube, as well.

Also, in some of those past discussions there was a significant degree of ignorance or misunderstanding among the claims made by editors, such as that Ganges is the English name and Ganga is a Hindi name. That isn't true, Ganga is a word in English. Hindi doesn't use the Roman alphabet. I've also seen editors claim Ganga is only recognizable in South Asia, but not in most English-speaking countries. Well, first of all, India is an English-speaking country. Second of all, Americans like me recognize Ganga.

We need a new discussion, preferably driven by editors who actually know what they're talking about, and not who speak out of ignorance or personal biases against the very existence of Indian English. 1101 (talk) 13:23, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

The current name doesn't benefit Americans, who don't care either way or are split. It doesn't benefits Indians, who prefer Ganga. It doesn't benefit a worldwide audience, who also prefers Ganga. It only seems to take the current name for the benefit of the British, probably because they historically colonized many parts of India, such as Thiruvananthapuram, formerly known as Trivandrum, but renamed — as this article should be! 1101 (talk) 13:28, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

This makes a lot of assumptions regarding international naming. In my own language it's "Ganges" and I know for a fact this applies to a lot of countries in Europe. English Wikipedia isn't just for the native English speakers and so yes the worldwide readership must be considered. And I think "Ganges" is a lot more common that you realize. DissatisfiedJack (talk) 07:00, 8 August 2025 (UTC)

Your use of NGrams was misleading. 1101 (talk) 12:22, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

. 1101 (talk) 12:23, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Imagine using a British name for something American. Like calling an American soccer team a football team. It's just ridiculous. The British don't have primacy when it comes to the English language. It exists in multiple countries, including India. 1101 (talk) 12:25, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

(Reply to nobody in particular) Is this for the same reason that our Italy article is not called Italia? Or why our Germany article isn't called

Deutschland? Knitsey (talk) 13:56, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand.

1. The data is on my side.
2. Ganga is English.

1101 (talk) 13:58, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

It is my understanding that Ganges is Hellenistic (Gangis), then Latin, which is where the English language version is taken from? Knitsey (talk) 14:05, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Ganga isn't a translation, it is the word used in Indian English! Same with Mumbai vs Bombay. Smart Sherlock (talk) 17:43, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

This is different from Mumbai vs. Bombay as India has changed the name back to Mumbai. Here, the name Ganges is recognized even by the Indian government, even though you’d think otherwise. CodeMiner711 (talk) 03:43, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia itself only cares about the common names Smart Sherlock (talk) 05:21, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 18 April 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW close. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 02:48, 22 April 2026 (UTC)

---

Ganges → GangaGanga – When the Greeks, led by Alexander the Great, reached the Indian subcontinent around 300 BCE, they adapted local names into their own language. In Ancient Greek, rivers were often treated as masculine entities, and masculine nouns frequently ended in -es.During British rule in India, Ganges was adopted as the official English name for the river. This helped standardise the name in international literature, maps, and textbooks. The Government of India officially designated the river as "Ganga" in 2008, establishing it as the nation's National River. Administrative bodies, including the National Mission for Clean Ganga under the Ministry of Jal Shakti, exclusively use "Ganga" for management and official documentation. Major English-language newspapers in India, such as The Times of India, Hindustan Times, and The Hindu, almost exclusively use Ganga in their reporting. I want people to involve in this discussion and get on a concensus. Thank you.

References

Regards, VerdictByLogic - Let's Discuss 18:43, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

• Strong oppose and snow close. This tired move has been attempted dozens of times by India-POV editors, each time without success. Please read those discussions instead of wasting productive editors' time. The river is not India's to name. It is a transboundary river that flows through India and Bangladesh, where it is known as the "Padma." This is an English-language encyclopedia, and the river's name in English is the Ganges. In English-language newspapers around the world, indeed, even in Bangladesh, it is known as the Ganges, not the Ganga. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:10, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

  PS The last such move attempt was exactly a year ago. Indeed this seems to be a yearly ritual. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:13, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose per very, very clear WP:COMMONNAME in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:57, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
• Oppose. Srnec (talk) 20:37, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
• Oppose as per WP:COMMONNAME in English-language sources - random Indian newspapers do not give a global perspective. - Arjayay (talk) 20:49, 20 April 2026 (UTC)
• Oppose. Multiple previous moves have failed (including one a year ago as mentioned by Fowler&fowler above), and there's no indication that the WP:COMMONNAME has changed since then. Many other international rivers are also commonly known by exonyms in English (e.g. Rhine, Danube, Nile) InfoManiac297 (talk) 04:04, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Asteramellus (talk) 22:29, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
• Comment - Adding comments based on what I noticed:

1. for the argument the river is not India's to name - seems not directly relevant per WP:TITLE - which is more about usage in English-language reliable sources. By that logic, "Ganges" itself is also an "external" (Greek/European) exonym.

2. even in Bangladesh, it is known as the Ganges, not the Ganga - this seems a bit simplified. I see there is an article Padma river (article says It is the eastern and main distributary of the Ganges) - is that the same river? It seems the river named "Ganges" splits and becomes a downstream distributary flowing into Bangladesh and called Padma river? In that case, lead on this article e.g. where it says in Bangladesh: Padma and The Ganges continues into Bangladesh, its name changing to the Padma could be read as just a name change - is that correct? Or is it really the "Ganges" itself which is flowing as the main river (and called Padma) and not a separate distributary of Ganges?

3. As explained by InfoManiac297, many rivers are also commonly known by exonyms, but seems there are also cases where English usage have shifted over time to local names - e.g. Beijing (before "Peking") and Myanmar (before "Burma") - may not quite apply here, but it shows that naming conventions in English are not fixed and can change if usage in RS shifts.

4. google ngram view for reference shows overlap in usage - though context of the usage is not quite clear and also won't reflect all English-language sources (e.g media), but still a good reference. Asteramellus (talk) 23:07, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rising rivers

Hello!

I'm wondering if we can clarify what it means for a river to "rise", a term which is used at least twice in the lead. I had to Google the term to find out that it means the place where a river begins. Can we just use "begin" instead? I tried to wikilink "rise", but the page for River does not use it. OrdinaryOtter (talk) 03:38, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Its the standard term. See Volga "Rising in the Valdai Hills 225 m (738 ft) above sea level northwest of Moscow and about 320 km (200 mi) southeast of Saint Petersburg, the Volga heads east past Lake Sterzh, Tver, Dubna, Rybinsk, Yaroslavl, Nizhny Novgorod, and Kazan." See Danube, "The Danube's longest headstream, the Breg, rises in Furtwangen im Schwarzwald, while the river carries its name from its source confluence in the palace park in ..." or Britannica's Ganges: Rising in the Himalayas and emptying into the Bay of Bengal, it drains one-fourth of the territory of India, and its basin supports hundreds of millions of people Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:19, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Just because it's standard, doesn't mean it's clear or intuitive for the average reader. Like I said, I had to go to Google to find the term; whenever possible, we should avoid situations that result in readers having to leave Wikipedia to understand the page they're reading. OrdinaryOtter (talk) 11:41, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• River Thames: The river rises at Thames Head in Gloucestershire and flows into the North Sea near Tilbury, Essex and Gravesend, Kent, via the Thames Estuary. From the west, it flows through Oxford (where it is sometimes called the Isis),
• Missouri River: The nation's longest,[13] it rises in the eastern Centennial Mountains of the Bitterroot Range of the Rocky Mountains
• Danube: The Danube's longest headstream, the Breg, rises in Furtwangen im Schwarzwald, while the river carries its name
• Tiber: The river rises at Mount Fumaiolo in Central Italy and flows in a generally southerly direction past Perugia and Rome to meet the sea at Ostia.
• Limpopo River: The Notwane River is a major tributary of the Limpopo, rising on the edge of the Kalahari Desert in Botswana and flowing in a north-easterly direction.
• Zambezi: The river rises in a black, marshy dambo in dense, undulating miombo woodland 50 km (31 mi) north of Mwinilunga and 20 km (12 mi) south of Ikelenge in the Ikelenge District of North-Western Province, Zambia, at about 1,524 metres (5,000 ft) above sea level.
• Mekong: The Mekong rises as the Za Qu (Tibetan: རྫ་ཆུ་, Wylie: rDza chu, ZWPY: Za qu; Chinese: 扎曲; pinyin: Zā Qū) and soon becomes known as the Lancang River
• Darling River: Officially the Darling begins between Brewarrina and Bourke at the confluence of the Culgoa and Barwon rivers; streams whose tributaries rise in the ranges of southern Queensland and northern New South Wales west of the Great Dividing Range.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:45, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Indus River: The Indus (/ˈɪndəs/ IN-dəs) is a transboundary river of Asia and a trans-Himalayan river of South and Central Asia.[11] The 3,180 km (1,980 mi)[6] river rises in the Tibet Autonomous Region of China where it is known as Sengge Zangbo
• Amu Darya: Rising in the Pamir Mountains, north of the Hindu Kush, the Amu Darya is formed by the confluence of the Vakhsh and Panj rivers,
• Dnieper, (the river along whose basin the horse was first domesticated and the Indo-European languages, including the ancient Germanic ancestors of English, had their birth): The Dnieper or Dnepr (/(də)ˈniːpər/ (də-)NEE-pər), also known as the Dnipro (/(də)ˈniːproʊ/ (də-)NEE-proh), is one of the major transboundary rivers of Europe, rising in the Valdai Hills near Smolensk, Russia, before flowing through Belarus and Ukraine to the Black Sea.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:54, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

My friend, you've been very polite in our discussions so far, but these latest comments come across as rude. It feels like you are bludgeoning me with examples instead of actually discussing my concern. OrdinaryOtter (talk) 16:44, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm not bludgeoning you in the least. Apologies, but the examples were for my own edification. I wanted to know if the term was commonly used. This does mean that if you have concerns about its use, this page is not the page to air them. Some more general Wikipedia site might be more appropriate. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:24, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

I have found an appropriate place to wiki-link the term "rise" and have made an edit. Please let me know if there are any issues with this. OrdinaryOtter (talk) 18:48, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

I can't tell. You'll need to seek consensus for the edit on at least the talk pages of the rivers I listed above, and you'll very likely need an RfC on a central WP site. Otherwise, I'll remove the link. The sentence has been there for at least 15 years on this page, if not more. We can't edit Wikipedia pages based on our personal unfamiliarity with some terms. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:43, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Actually, on second thought, I am reverting your edits. Please see WP:ONUS. It is Wikipedia policy. You are attempting to add something. You will need to garner a consensus for it. Right now you don't have it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:53, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

As you will see, the term the * river rises is still widely used in the English language, in fiction, geography, hydrology and very likely riverine ecology. The way I look at it, attempting to change well-established usage violates WP:NOR, as we are changing text that satisfied WP:V with our personal interpretation of what language is correct or more widely understood. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:52, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

In the future, I would encourage you to bring a little more kindness and empathy into your interactions with other editors. Some of your comments come off as patronizing and arrogant, and I have no desire to speak with you further. Take care and be well. OrdinaryOtter (talk) 22:12, 5 September 2026 (UTC)