Talk:Four occupations

GA review

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

   Four Si issue in lead and WP:UNDUE to shi in lead.

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

• Qing dynasty effect needs refs.
• "Therefore, the farmer was a valuable member of society, and even though he was not considered one with the shi class, the families of the shi were still landholders that often produced crops and foodstuffs." needs ref

1. C. No original research:

• "In modern Hong Kong culture, a similar concept remains called the Four Si (四師), since each of the occupations ends with the Chinese character 師, meaning specialist or profession. The four are doctors (醫師), lawyers (律師), engineers (工程師) and accountants (會計師)." may be OR. Needs a ref.

Added a reference for this. Did not know this was going GA. Benjwong (talk) 18:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Please add English refs.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• "There were motives behind the aristocratic officials and later scholar-officials' classifying of certain groups in the hierarchy and leaving others out. The scholar-officials placed farmers as the second most prestigious group because the aristocratic officials and scholar-officials were landholders themselves, much like farmers (the ones who weren't tenant farmers or serfs). Both farmers and artisans were placed on a higher tier than merchants because the two former groups produced crops and manufactured goods, essential things needed by the whole of society. The merchants were seen as merely talented at business and trading, and were often seen as greedy and even parasitic to the needs of all other groups." Needs refs
• "Entertainers and courtiers were often dependents upon the wealthy or were associated with the often-perceived immoral pleasure grounds of urban entertainment districts." needs ref for opinion
• "the scholars did not want religious leaders amassing too much power and influence like military strongmen" needs ref

1. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   Historical development of other classes except shi - not covered.

   B. Focused:

• IN "The shi (士)"; unneccessary details of emperor' polics are given without their effect on the shi clearly mentioned.
• "The distinction between what was town and country was blurred in Ming China, since suburban areas with farms were located just outside and in some cases within the walls of a city" : revelance in terms of nong not mentioned.

1. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

   WP:UNDUE to The shi (士). Effect of various dynasties on shi are covered but those on other 3 classes are not.

2. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

3. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

• Image:T'ang Yin 002.jpg' img caption needs to say explicitly which class the man is from.
• The claim "The double-edged jian was a demarcation of the shi class, which was more ceremonial after their transformation from a warrior elite to a scholarly elite." needs ref

1. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• "Soldiers along China's frontiers were also encouraged by the state to settle down on their own farm lots in order for the food supply of the military to become self-sufficient. Farmers were also encouraged to join peasant militias to act as supporting units to the official standing army." - encouraged by whom, which dynasty or period????

--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Failed. No significant changes made to the article as per Review.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of wǔ

...the gentry scholars' embracing of intellectual cultivation (wen) and detest for violence (wu).

Is this saying that this was a time when wén was embraced over wǔ, or that wǔ is itself detestation of violence? If the former, it should be clarified. If the latter, I think that's incorrect, per this article.

DJUrsus (talk) 15:12, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Outcast or "untouchable"?

A good point to bring up. Hansson, Chinese Outcastes, the source in the footnote, says "such discriminated groups differ from from the Indian untouchables in not being part of a real caste system, they are often loosely termed outcasts or pariahs." (p 10) That is, they are not "untouchables" even though MDGB says the term 賤民 can be used to translate the English "untouchable" it does not follow that it can be translated the other way around. I agree with @103.6.150.235: that "mean" is not satisfactory, but "mean" or "outcaste" are the more commonly accepted English translations.ch (talk) 20:10, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Anachronistic mention of imperial examinations

While apparently discussing the original system of the Warring States, Qin and Han periods, the text suddenly says that 'theoretically, any man could become an official through the Imperial examinations'. This is obviously anachronistic, since these examinations only appeared much later, in the Sui dynasty. 62.73.72.101 (talk) 13:58, 27 September 2025 (UTC)

Comparison with caste systems and untouchability

This article puts a lot of emphasis on the fact that these occupations were not a caste system, at least not in the sense of the Indian caste system.

However, it should be noted that certain groups under the Jian Min umbrella, such as the Tanka people, had extremely little social mobility. They were severely ostracized, and not allowed to participate in the imperial examinations, or own land, or to marry outside their "caste". In this sense they were certainly untouchables.

Also, it would be good to explain how much or little social mobility was possible in this system. How many people changed their social standing or occupation through these imperial examinations? The three estate system in Europe for instance is theoratically speaking not a caste system, but several groups in this system had so little social mobility that they were basically castes in practice. LouisBStevenson (talk) 17:53, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

four categories of the people ≠ 四民

四民 is literally 4-people or 4-man, it is nothing like "four categories of the people". ~2026-37000-85 (talk) 19:34, 26 June 2026 (UTC)