Talk:Fossil

Fossil record gaps 20131028.pdf unreadable

FYI, I just sent this message to user 'Sceptic view." If they don't respond, at some point I'll delete the file link.

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I hope this message is reaching user Sceptic view (pardon my newbie-ness). I'm messaging about your file "Fossil record gaps 20131028.pdf", used in the article "Fossil," under the heading "Limitations." As far as I can tell, this image is too small/low-res to read, and no larger image is available. Can this be fixed so that it does show a readable table?

Cheers, AmateurHistorian AmateurHistorian (talk) 01:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Cincinnati Fossils from Ordovician

Hello! Perhaps we could also add a section regarding the fossils from the Ordovician fossils that can be found near Cincinnati, Ohio? --Totaroga (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. This is an article about fossils in general and I think it would be more appropriate to add any details to the Geology of Ohio article and/or create a new article to describe the Ordovician fossils of the Cincinnati region. GeoWriter (talk) 18:17, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Wikipedia definitely has a place for good writing about regional geology, and the Geology of Ohio has a (unfortunately deserved) maintenance tag for lack of reliable sourcing. So there is room for improvement there. There is also a redlink to Cincinnatian Series in the section on Ordovician geology, and I'm guessing this is just the place to discuss these fossils if this article is created.

If there is something about the Cincinnati fossils that sheds particular light on some aspect of fossils generally, then a mention in this article (with reliable source that, among other things, establishes notability) is appropriate. --Kent G. Budge (talk) 18:50, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Fossilization and Preservation of Biological Cells and Tissues

Here is a recent, peer-reviewed publication describing, for the first time with in-depth chemistry, how biological cells and soft tissues preserve into the fossil record. Since this page is on fossilization, I think the information from this publication may be desirable to add. Here is the link to the actual article:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012825223000569#f0040

And here is a link to a news article that describes the peer-reviewed article in layman's terms:

https://phys.org/news/2023-05-dinosaur-tissues-deep.html 2606:A800:CD80:AD4:40F6:6C96:DD34:F7ED (talk) 05:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

We haven't heard back on the above comment in a while ^^ ...anyone have any thoughts as to what to do with it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.84.244.11 (talk) 01:43, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

This is a primary source that reports original findings or ideas, which has not been commented by other scientists. It likely is too soon to include it in Wikipedia until a reliable secondary source evaluates the research presented in this paper. Paul H. (talk) 13:50, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Looks like it’s published in a peer-reviewed journal to me. Earth-Science Reviews is a highly respected source in the geological sciences, and Elsevier is a reputable publisher. The information presented has clearly been vetted by other scientists. 152.7.255.224 (talk) 17:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC):::

Regardless of where its is published, is still a primary research that should be discussed in sufficient independent secondary reliable sources to determine whether it is notable enough to include in an article. That is Wikipedia:Too soon and WP:USEPRIMARY. Paul H. (talk) 20:29, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I’m the person who posted the original comment. The article clearly combines the two leading ideas for how original soft tissues fossilize, one by Dr. Mary Schweitzer and colleagues, the other by Dr. Jasmina Wiemann and colleagues. There is zero question this is notable.

And for whether or not it’s correct, it’s a review article, all the information in it is directly verifiable by reading it. There’s no data to analyze, meaning the input of so-called “secondary sources” will change nothing regarding the chemical theory. If you actually read the paper, what it’s saying is 100% correct. The chemical theory presented that connects Schweitzer’s and Wiemann’s hypotheses is inarguable regarding its correctness. 2600:1004:B266:86E8:E4C4:5A20:7A93:2066 (talk) 20:57, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I tend to agree with the OP of this comment thread, having read over the paper more in-depth. Looking over the paper, the part that connects the hypotheses by Schweitzer et al 2014 and Wiemann et al 2018 is certainly correct. This is not up for debate, it's like a mathematical proof, the theory is either right or wrong, and reading over it, the theory is correct.

The only question is whether it's notable. Both Wiemann et al 2018 and Schweitzer et al 2014 are notable publications, both are unquestionably highly cited. The paper in question, Anderson 2023, uses organic geochemical theory to show that both of these papers overlooked the big picture regarding how soft tissue fossilization occurs; this is to the point that Anderson 2023 was able to show that the chemical mechanisms presented by both papers are interconnected, often being identical.

I don't see how one could rationally consider Anderson 2023 to not be "notable", whether it was published yesterday or 5 years ago. This is likely why the paper managed to get published in a prestigious journal like Earth-Science Reviews. Not even the editor or academic reviewers were able to question its significance to our understanding of fossilization. 152.7.255.224 (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I does not matter that we as editors judge Anderson to correct. That is just the personal opinions of editor which do not count in Wikipedia. What matters is if we can find any independent secondary reliable sources that state in their publications that they accept Anderson as correct. Deciding what is either correct or not or the truth or not is not the job of Wikipedia editors. It needs to be stated by independent secondary reliable sources in their publications.Paul H. (talk) 01:11, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

If that's the case, then the soft tissue fossilization hypotheses from Schweitzer et al 2014 and Wiemann et al 2018 should, at a minimum, be added. Anderson 2023 certainly functions as a peer-reviewed secondary source for those two other papers.

Also, as is, some of the sections pertaining to soft tissue fossilization in the "Fossil" wikipedia article don't even have citations. I believe the "Carbonization" subsection is one. This needs to be fixed. 152.7.255.224 (talk) 04:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

• Note on primary sources: see WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. Policy (or best practice, or even common practice, for that matter) does not state that primary sources cannot be used. They cannot be further interpreted by us; they do not form a suitable basis for entire articles, because they do not fulfill notability requirements; and they need more careful selection because of the lack of secondary corroboration. However, it is untrue to claim that we cannot use material from scientific articles "because it is primary". We do so in tens of thousands of articles. The threshold here is low because publication in a reliable journal implies that peer review has already happened (which is a form of secondary validation). Further, notability concerns do not apply below the indivual article level - those criteria are meant to determine whether a topic deserves its own article, not whether it deserves mention within another article. In summary, yes, this looks like it should be mentioned in the article because it is a topical, plausible finding from a reliable source. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:44, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
• To add to what Elmidae is saying here, this paper seems to be summarising the work of two other papers from different authors, so I don't think this is a straightforward case of WP:PRIMARY. I'll look into it a bit more once I find the time. (unless someone else gets to it first, of course.)--Licks-rocks (talk) 12:17, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  Please do add the material supported by the paper as a citation, which we can then review and adjust as appropriate. I think we are agreed that the article in itself qualifies for comment not just because it is presenting primary data supported by secondary and tertiary observations but because it is a secondary source (verified by peer review). This discussion made me smile because I have published papers with less peer challenge than this suggestion (how many angels are we counting on the pinhead) and the comment (supported by this paper as a citation) hasn’t even been written yet, so the argument is perceptual. The topic the paper raises contributes to the breadth of the main article and increases its notability outwith whether we consider the source to be notable (which is not the right question imho). Geneus01 (talk) 07:12, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

  I see these needed edits still haven't been made. It has been a while since this discussion, I would help make them myself, but I do not yet have the ability to edit semi-protected articles such as the Fossil Wikipedia page. However, with as much discussion as has occurred regarding adding this specific citation, it does sound like it is needed and should be added as soon as conveniently possible. Winged Angel Fly (talk) 07:24, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Addressing the "Fossilization and Preservation of Biological Cells and Tissues" Topic

I see this topic has had a bit of discussion and the general consensus is the citation in question should be added. As I replied in the topic discussion thread itself, I would help do it but I don't have the ability yet to edit semi-protected articles. I am commenting here just so others are aware the addition of this citation still needs addressing. Winged Angel Fly (talk) 07:28, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

"Fossilize" meaning

This page mentions "fossilize" numerous times, and the word directs to this page, but what it actually means is never explained. It is taken for granted it is known by all, or what??

Please add a clear definition of the word!— Preceding unsigned comment added by Go-in (talk • contribs) 11:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

The lead section includes "There are many processes that lead to fossilization, including permineralization, casts and molds, authigenic mineralization, replacement and recrystallization, adpression, carbonization, and bioimmuration."

There is a whole section on "Fossilization processes" goes into this in detail. The definition is simply "to make into" or become a fossil. It could be linked to the wiktionary definition on first use.Mikenorton (talk) 11:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I think a clear and simple definition of the word is much needed. I saw somewhere an article about 500 year old skeletons referred to as fossils. My understanding is that this must be wrong, but found nothing to support this. Please work on it! Go-in (talk) 21:09, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

As suggested by Mikenorton, and as per Wikipedia convention and practice, I've just made a wikilink of the first use of the term, in this case to the wiktionary definition. Feline Hymnic (talk) 22:12, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

We still have definitions that form a perfect circle! Fossil = something that has been fossilized, and fossilize = make into a fossil. (A little simplified.) Go-in (talk) 11:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I should add that in the presence of evolution deniers this is an infortunate situation. Go-in (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Expanding on @Mikenorton:'s comment above, there is a major section called "Fossilization processes". And there is also a link to the dictionary (Wiktionary) definition of the word. If you think even these are insufficient, then perhaps you should contribute here a suggestion of some sample text you would like to see inserted, and where. Feline Hymnic (talk) 18:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

The Oxford Languages has a definition:

"(to) preserve an organism so that it becomes a fossil."

Possibly, to incorporate part of definitions given below "(to) bury and preserve an organism so that it becomes a fossil."

Or based upon the "Glossary of Geology" definition for "fossilization," "fossilize" can be defined as:

"Fossilize - to bury and eventual preserve of all, part, or trace of an organism such that it eventually becomes a fossil."

However, some other dictionaries are happy with "to become a fossil or like a fossil". But, I am not happy with this definition in agreement some of the comments given above. Paul H. (talk) 03:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 September 2025

Change image subtext from

Collage of animal fossils. Clockwise from top left: Onychocrinus and Palaeosinopa; bottom row: Gryphaea and Harpactocarcinus

to

Clockwise from top left: Onychocrinus, Palaeosinopa, Gryphaea, and Harpactocarcinus

I found specifying the bottom row for a collage of 4 images was more confusing than it needs to be. 71.220.147.177 (talk) 00:12, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

 Done Nubzor [T][C] 00:54, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

"List of fossils" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect List of fossils has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 October 13 § List of fossils until a consensus is reached. consarn _{(talck) (contirbuton s)} 12:24, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

"Natural mold" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Natural mold has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 October 13 § Natural mold until a consensus is reached. consarn _{(talck) (contirbuton s)} 12:29, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

"Internal mold" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Internal mold has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 October 13 § Internal mold until a consensus is reached. consarn _{(talck) (contirbuton s)} 12:36, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

"Remanie" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Remanie has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 October 13 § Remanie until a consensus is reached. consarn _{(talck) (contirbuton s)} 12:41, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

Soft tissue, cell and molecular preservation

The use of the connector “however” in this section's writeup implies there is some logical link or continuity between the two statements of work — as if the second sentence either relates to or contradicts the first. In this case, that implication is misleading, because the comparison is meaningless.

It’s the rhetorical equivalent of writing: A chef discovered how to make ice cream that never melts. However, an earlier study found that some rocks stay solid in the sun.

The two sentences sound connected because of the transition word, but they actually describe completely different subjects.

It introduces a category error by comparing a taphonomic study (how structure fossilizes) with a molecular study (whether biomolecules remain), creating a rhetorical mismatch that conflates two unrelated types of preservation. Specifically, the “eight-taxa collagen fiber” study addresses morphological preservation—mineralized textures shaped like collagen fibers—whereas Mary Schweitzer’s research investigates biochemical preservation, the survival of actual molecular remnants such as collagen proteins and soft tissue. These are distinct phenomena governed by different preservation mechanisms.

Mary Schweitzer’s work was groundbreaking, effectively founding the field of molecular paleontology. For most of paleontological history, it was assumed that fossilization completely destroyed all organic material; therefore, her findings were considered highly controversial.

The older collagen-fiber study does not dispute Schweitzer’s conclusions—it examines morphological fidelity, not biochemical survival—and thus represents a completely different research question. It is unlikely that the authors of that earlier paper were even considering the preservation of biological molecules, and its conclusions have no relevance to molecular or biochemical preservation.

For the sake of Wikipedia’s reputation — and honestly, its sanity — it would be great if someone could edit the section so it doesn’t confuse readers or make the article sound nonsensical to anyone who actually understands a bit of science. I might get around to fixing it, but I’m pretty busy right now — so if anyone else has the time, please do, I’d gladly step aside in support! TheRightofHerWay (talk) 10:40, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

If I understand all this verbiage correctly, you are suggesting that the "however" could be omitted for better causal flow? Yes, I agree. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:13, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Deep rewrite needed...

As per the above comments and close examination, the definition and composition of what constitutes a fossile (what and how) need to be made much more clear, the use of Ambar and then a link to fossilized resin in the middle of a sentence that includes Bone and DNA as indication of the base material is nonsensical, it should point to the real fossilized matter not the original object that got fossilized (or better yet explain or link to the process that lead to the preservation). As it is it has no "rime or logic"... and little power to provide a good conceptualization of the subject of the article. There is also a very interesting aspect that becomes lost the chemistry and the rarity of the confluence of factors that result distribution of the findings beyond the research funds to search an area... Panic2k4 (talk) 19:01, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

I agree - this topic has become a bucket - there is excellent material here but most of it needs to be reclassified under their own topics and the definition of fossil paired down to it's basic component parts. This is not uncommon on Wikipedia, which is ever growing as our knowledge develops and people's interests become associated with parallel topics of the day. It has accreted over time and has morphed from a description of what fossils are into a polemic on fossils (there are 9 Howevers in the article, implying discussion and opinion, inadmissible in Wikipedia). In effect this article needs a taxonomic overhaul by someone or a group who have the content knowledge to identify discrete elements and redistribute them through the main. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia not a treatise, albeit with hyperlinks to associated taxa. I say this as a geologist with only partial content knowledge but a naturalist's interest in simple clarity. Geneus01 (talk) 07:27, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

I don't think that a deeper knowledge is needed for a meaningful uplift especially on the introductory section that does not require too much attributions.

I would so it but I'm not a wikipedian and have not the time to deal with the bureaucratic requirements, I only do small edits here and there but this one seems to fall in common sense and common rationality. We have items that are changes over time in records that keep some of those items records in a complete distinct strata or processes that chemically alter the original material to fossilize (turn into rock original biologic material or biologic constructs). There is a etymology issue with word itself the design and the meaning it has evolved into (and the meaning seems to have been there since the start as it is reflected in most languages I know "as turned into static archaic remanent" (popular, more "a rock" or "a calcification") and not "obtained by digging")...

One interesting fact is that geology as a process is also a fossil record in itself, more than a simple measure of erosion and accumulation, rocks and minerals are not static they evolve and change with the passing time and environment in way that are predictable and in general understood, they are more that distribution markers or environmental packaging... Panic2k4 (talk) 00:21, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

Okay - if I were to give this a go, I must warn you it will take months (I have done this before). Not because of "bureaucratic requirements" but because it takes time to break out and preserve the elements, build links, author new articles (if necessary) and get consensus from a large community of interest groups from around the English speaking world e.g. trivial details like why am I using the term fossilized when everyone knows it is fossilised (I'm a Brit who has lived in America)?. I would start by breaking it out and will do this in my sandbox so that you and others can see what is going on. Lost the will to live yet @Panic2k4:? I am, afterall, responding to your concerns (which resonated with me) and have a day job. Will you help me (I need to be kept honest because I am neither a palaeontologist nor paleontologist and will savagely cut this back)? Geneus01 (talk) 07:12, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

@Geneus01, moved discussion to you talk page. Placed there my local edit.

Panic2k4 (talk) 19:17, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

I may be able to help - RealGatba (talk) (contribs) 14:07, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

Thanks - I am doing a deep dive on the article history. I'm not fully convinced of the need for change yet. There are several substantial, coherent contributions, which I would hope to preserve. I have no intention of replacing these contributions but if I can, I would like to improve how they fit together. As you can see from the exchange below, I also get it wrong so I would value contributions from others. Geneus01 (talk) 16:44, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

building stone

Quarried stone used for building can often include small fossils - as seen here on Pont Neuf, Paris

Yesterday I added the above image and caption to the article. It was reverted, with the edit summary "Photograph adds no material value to the article". I find that statement to be factually incorrect. There is no other image in the article showing fossils in building stone. The image should be restored. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 07:04, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

My fault I'm afraid - My apologies: I was probably a bit hasty (now restored). Geneus01 (talk) 08:57, 28 July 2026 (UTC)