Talk:First Saudi state

The map

Why does this map not include southern Najd? 46.184.88.188 (talk) 06:37, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Because it wasn't controlled by the Al Saud. Compare with this reliable source. DeCausa (talk) 19:50, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@AboSalamah I've reverted your map addition per this source 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 05:48, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

@AboSalamah will you see this source shown by @DeCausa first please before reverting me again? I am not reading the entire book that you used as a source without providing the pages. Let alone that that book was published by a saudi uni (King Abdulaziz University) 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 06:26, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

@Abo Yemen I've read it, doesn't make the source I provided any less more correct

And what does it being published from a Saudi university have to do with anything? It also gives its sources, you should read it a little you'll get to the point where it mentions its greatest extent AboSalamah (talk) 06:29, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

just give me the pages no? 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 06:32, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

@Cinderella157 would be nice to have a 3o from you 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 05:50, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

WP:VER is a core policy and giving a page (or similar) is reasonably necessary to verify the map. Verifying the map presently shown is the first question to resolve. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:52, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

File:The First Saudi State Greatest Extent.png is more reliably sourced than the current map (which is titled the "Great Emirate of Diriyah", also a made-up name), but @AboSalamah keeps on reverting it 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 12:10, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Both WP:VER and WP:VNOT apply. There is sufficient concern over the verifiability of the map to remove it at this point. If the information requested is provided and the map can be verified, then a consensus would need to be reached as to whether we use the "new" map in favour of the one used originally. I have therfore reverted to the "original" (the status quo) until such matters are resolved. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:31, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes it was controlled by Al-Saud. Ibn Bishr literally mentioned Southern Najdi clans paying tribute to First Saudi state. Jasmkssnksskskskskz (talk) 09:45, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

That doesn't mean that it was part of the Emirate. The Al Saud had to pay tribute to the Ottomans at various time - Abdul Aziz did so from 1910. It doesn't mean that a map of the Ottoman Empire should include Nejd. DeCausa (talk) 13:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Date of establishment

While this article states that the first Saudi state was established in 1744, our Saudi Arabia and House of Saud articles state that the first Saudi state was established in 1727. This is also stated on the Saudi Embassy website, which says "The first Saudi State was established in 1139 AH / 1727 AD in Al-Di​​r'iya, its capital, by Imam Muhammad bin Saud." The book Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates: Foreign Policy and Strategic Alliances in an Uncertain World says "Muhammad Ibn Saud, also known as Ibn Saud, emir of Diriyah, was considered to be the founder of the First Saudi State and dynasty from 1727 to 1765." This article, however, doesn't even mention the year 1727. Regardless of which date is technically correct, it seems like some important information must be missing from this article about something happening in 1727, which apparently some people consider the founding of the first Saudi state. Nosferattus (talk) 18:16, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

1727 was the date of the enthronement of Muhammad bin Saud Al Muqrin. That is Sheikhdom of Diriyah history. The other articles should be fixed 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 18:23, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

So is the Sheikhdom of Diriyah the actual first Saudi state (or perhaps just Muhammad bin Saud Al Muqrin's sheikhdom)? I'm confused. Nosferattus (talk) 18:28, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Looking into this further (it's quite a rabbit hole), it seems the government of Saudi Arabia in 2022 changed the definition of "first Saudi state" from the Emirate of Diriyah to the sheikhdom of Muhammad bin Saud, thus why there are conflicting sources. To address this, we should either move this article to "Emirate of Diriyah" or expand it to cover both meanings. Nosferattus (talk) 19:01, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Nope, we shouldn't move anything. The Saudi govt's date change in 2022 was a move to make their state "older" for some reason. The Sheikhdom of Diriyah wasn't a "Saudi State" for much of its existence since the house of Al Saud was established by Muhammad bin Saud. What we should be doing is to follow what most reliable academic sources say, not governments 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 19:06, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that. However, if we ignore this change completely I'm sure I won't be the last person that is confused. There are already sources reflecting this change, so it seems like some sort of explanation is warranted even if it's just a couple sentences, per WP:DUE. Nosferattus (talk) 19:24, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

@Nosferattus It would be worth a mention in the Saudi Founding Day article since that is where the historical revisionism done by the saudi govt is more relevant 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 19:35, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer. It looks like that article already discusses it in a paragraph towards the end. There should be some mention of the issue here as well since it directly affects what is considered the extent of the "first Saudi state" and some sources are already using that definition. Also, according to the Arabic version of this article (near the bottom), 1727 is when Muhammad bin Saud "extended his influence beyond Diriyah to include several cities and regions, transforming the form of government from a city-state to a state, thus establishing the First Saudi State". I don't know how accurate that is, but it sounds like there might be some reason for the date change (besides just historical revisionism). Nosferattus (talk) 19:53, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

The arabic article is full of issues esp since it was written by a now-banned Saudi intelligence agent, and ive already questioned how it is still marked as a GA on there but the response was for me to work on it instead of questioning. The Arabic wiki is a mess. I dont think that modern revisionist views held by a govt are relevant here, since things that happen now has nothing to do with the history of the former state. Either ways I am planning on working on this article at some point when im done with the stuff that Im working on at the moment 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 20:18, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you, but if sources are using it, we have to at least acknowledge that usage. Here are some more sources:

• Middle Eastern Studies: "In January 2022, a Saudi royal decree established the holiday of ‘Founding Day’, in recognition of the founding of the ancestral Saudi polity, the first Saudi state, in 1727."
• Al Majalla: "It is not an overstatement to say that the greatest event in the Arabian Peninsula’s history in the last millennium was the establishment of the First Saudi State in 1727 by its founder, Imam Muhammad bin Saud..."
• Arab News: "The House of Saud took the first steps on the long road to nationhood in 1727, when Imam Mohammed bin Saud succeeded his cousin, Zaid bin Markhan, as ruler of the city state of Diriyah. It is this pivotal moment, recognized as the date when the First Saudi State came into being, that is celebrated in the Kingdom on Feb. 22 each year as Founding Day."
• Arab News: "Today, the beginning of Imam Mohammed’s reign, in February 1727, is recognized as the moment that the First Saudi State came into being, ultimately paving the way for the creation on Sept. 23, 1932, of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia."

There are plenty more, but I think I've made the point. FWIW, this article by the Arab Gulf States Institute argues that both dates are effectively "political myths" as there was no political continuity between the "first Saudi state" and the current country of Saudi Arabia. Nosferattus (talk) 21:50, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

tbh the only notable source out of the 4 you listed is the Middle Eastern Studies one. News outlets like Arab News, ignoring the fact that it is owned by the Saudi royal family, are not an academic source. As for the al-Majalla article, it was written by someone with a PhD in Islamic culture, not history 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 05:36, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

I added a brief sentence about the date change and also a sentence about the creation of Saudi Founding Day. I used the Middle Eastern Studies source and an article from the Saudi Gazette rather than anything from Arab News, per your comments. Feel free to edit it further. Thanks again for your feedback. Nosferattus (talk) 16:15, 24 November 2025 (UTC)