Talk:Ferrari P
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(personal attack by anon editor removed) Friday (talk) 16:39, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Racing car template
[edit]I've had a stab at a template for racing cars (see template:Racing car) to summarise the usual data. I've used the F1 templates as a starting point and applied it to the article. If anyone's got an interest in this, please have a look at the template and modify or suggest changes as appropriate. After a few people have had a go at it and we have something we're happy with we could start to use it more widely. Note that it's not meant to be specific to F1, by the way. Cheers. 4u1e 10:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
0846 controversy
[edit]Since this is Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia, I have edited the long-contentious discussion of 0846, the "lost" P3/4 in a way I believe to be NPOV. Please feel free to copyedit this, but please do NOT mindlessly revert all of that text. It was NOT encyclopedic. The long Ferrari letter (which is disputed in its authenticity) especially did not belong here. That's what REFERENCE tags are for. I read Glickenhaus' entire pdf and much of the thread as well and attempted to distill it to a single paragraph for the average reader. --SFoskett 20:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I have never seen such a long winded discussion over nothing as this issue on wiki. On both the talk page and article. I move we give the whole issue its own article and sever any links to it whatsoever. Batvette (talk) 21:32, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
330 or 412?
[edit]Is the picture of the 330 and 412 at Goodwood identical? Which one is it? - 17/1/10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.6.140.6 (talk) 19:38, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
| Hatted irrelevant discussion: Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a forum, or a place to fight over who owns what or what is what according to whom... |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Ing. Mauro Forghieri confirms that the P3/P4 chassis in the Glickenhaus P3/P4 is the Original Chassis that was in the Ferrari P3/P4 that won the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967[edit]Ing. Forghieri had written the two documents addressed to Mr Glickenhaus dated the 22nd of February, 2016 and 14th March, 2016 based on a "tourist's glance" and some very brief documentation that was made available to him. Ing. Forghieri stated that Mr Glickenhaus had not provided him with any documentation. He had not thoroughly inspected the chassis as Mr Glickenhaus had stated. Since writing the letters I sent some pictures of Mr Glickenhaus's chassis and he has confirmed that it is not the chassis he took to Daytona for testing in December, 1966. Therefore it is not not the 1967 winner of the 24 Hours of Daytona as the car that won was the car that Ing. Forghieri had tested at Daytona. On looking over the photographs of the chassis Ing. Forghieri had said that the rear of the of the chassis of the fake P4 of Mr Glickenhaus was completely new and the biggest differences to a real one were at the front section that had not been restored. There is also now photographic proof in the form of independent period photographs which have been posted on www.ferrarichat.com that the real Ferrari P3/P4 0846 did not retain its P3 engine mountings as Mr Glickenhaus has proposed and stated for years that these identify his car as the real 0846. The primary engine mountings on Mr Glickenhaus's chassis have also been built to P4 plans but located in the P3 position to fit the P3 type engine with less than ideal bolt on adaptors later fitted to fit a 312 F1 3 valve engine. The photographs prove that the rear of the chassis on the real 0846 was converted to be identical to a P4 with correct P4 engine mountings to mount the Tipo 237 P4 engine with the P3 mountings removed. Miurasvjota (talk) 11:37, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Mauro0846.pdf The letter posted by Mr Glickenhaus dated 14th March, 2016 does not give the whole story so here is the detailed letter by Ing. Mauro Forghieri dated 23rd February, 2016 which whilst acknowledging that a car with parts of a Ferrari chassis is a Ferrari P4, it is not a car recognised by Ferrari since "0846" was scrapped by Ferrari after the chassis was damaged at Le Mans 1967 and then had 3rd party modifications. For all legal purposes the number 0846 has ceased to exist. Therefore the chassis cannot legally be designated "0846". See here: http://postimg.org/image/jp8zy1t2x/ Miurasvjota (talk) 16:30, 6 April 2016 (UTC) On March 14th 2016 Mauro Forghieri Confirmed in writing, in front of witnesses and on Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site (in the owners section) that in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion Ferrari P3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, "estoppel by laches". After the 2014 Amelia Island Concours, noted Ferrari Historian Keith Bluemel clearly reported in Cavallino magazine that Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846 owned by Jim Glickenhaus attended that Concours.[12] In the Official Ferrari Publication Magazine #9 there's an article on Glickenhaus's 512S Modulo, his 330 P3/4 0846 "The Ferrari P 3/4" and Flavio Manzoni the new head of Ferrari Design featuring a photo of Glickenhaus's Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 that he sent to Ferrari as restored by Glickenhaus as a coupé before he restored her as a Spyder. Every year continuously from 2004 to date, officially authorized Ferrari dealer "Wide World of Cars" has inspected Glickenhaus' 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 and certified to NYS DMV that is in fact 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 and safe for operation on public roads under NYS DMV law. This is the same officially authorized Ferrari dealer who arranged for Ferrari S.p.A. to inspect this car in NY which resulted in Ferrari S.p.A. manufacturing P4 parts that Glickenhaus used in the restoration of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846. video that the chassis in the Glickenhaus P3/P4 is the original P3/P4 Chassis of the car that won The 1967 24 Hours of Daytona which was chassis 0846. http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Mauro0846.pdf
But Ing. Mauro Forghieri said in bold writing that "it must be concluded that, for all legal purposes SN #0846 has ceased to exist. Your car cannot be therefore designated as 0846." Miurasvjota (talk) 13:25, 8 April 2016 (UTC) The above poster also tried to claim that: "Here is the more detailed version of the letter by Ing. Mauro Forghieri." See here: http://postimg.org/image/jp8zy1t2x/ Miurasvjota (talk) 14:02, 8 April 2016 (UTC) This is not true. It's not " the more detailed version of the letter by Ing. Mauro Forghieri." It's a totally different letter with an earlier date that is superseded by a later one which is quite clear and confirmed in writing, in front of witnesses and on video that the chassis in the Glickenhaus P3/P4 is the original P3/P4 Chassis of the car that won The 1967 24 Hours of Daytona. The chassis that won The 24 Hours of Daytona is chassis N. 0846. This later letter is quite clear and speaks for itself. http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Mauro0846.pdf MF is not a lawyer and his opinion " For all legal purposes the number 0846 has ceased to exist." is not true as of 2002 as a clear result of a legal proceeding began in 2000, outlined below, that Ferrari has accepted by their clear public record actions, also outlined below. Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site (in the owners section) that in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion Ferrari P3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, "estoppel by laches". After the 2014 Amelia Island Concours, noted Ferrari Historian Keith Bluemel clearly reported in Cavallino magazine that Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846 owned by Jim Glickenhaus attended that Concours.[12] In the Official Ferrari Publication Magazine #9 there's an article on Glickenhaus's 512S Modulo, his 330 P3/4 0846 "The Ferrari P 3/4" and Flavio Manzoni the new head of Ferrari Design featuring a photo of Glickenhaus's Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 that he sent to Ferrari as restored by Glickenhaus as a coupé before he restored her as a Spyder. Every year continuously from 2004 to date, officially authorized Ferrari dealer "Wide World of Cars" has inspected Glickenhaus' 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 and certified to NYS DMV that is in fact 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 and safe for operation on public roads under NYS DMV law. This is the same officially authorized Ferrari dealer who arranged for Ferrari S.p.A. to inspect this car in NY which resulted in Ferrari S.p.A. manufacturing P4 parts that Glickenhaus used in the restoration of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846. Mauro Forghieri's document dated 23rd February, 2016 has not been superseded at all. MF emailed it to me to make things clear on the 23rd of March, 2016 so is very valid. Miurasvjota (talk) 15:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC) The law is quite clear. The dates that the documents are dated speak for Themselves. Both confirm that the chassis in the car today is the same chassis that was in the car when it won the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona. The chassis that won the 1967 24 hours was n. 0846. The Clear Legal identity of the car today is chassis n. 0846 and was irrevocably determined in 2002. It can not be challenged by Ferrari or anyone else ever. That is fact. MF is not a lawyer and his opinion " For all legal purposes the number 0846 has ceased to exist." is not true as of 2002 as a clear result of a legal proceeding began in 2000, outlined below, that Ferrari has accepted by their clear public record actions, also outlined below. Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site (in the owners section) that in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion Ferrari P3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, "estoppel by laches". After the 2014 Amelia Island Concours, noted Ferrari Historian Keith Bluemel clearly reported in Cavallino magazine that Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846 owned by Jim Glickenhaus attended that Concours.[12] In the Official Ferrari Publication Magazine #9 there's an article on Glickenhaus's 512S Modulo, his 330 P3/4 0846 "The Ferrari P 3/4" and Flavio Manzoni the new head of Ferrari Design featuring a photo of Glickenhaus's Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 that he sent to Ferrari as restored by Glickenhaus as a coupé before he restored her as a Spyder. Every year continuously from 2004 to date, officially authorized Ferrari dealer "Wide World of Cars" has inspected Glickenhaus' 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 and certified to NYS DMV that is in fact 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 and safe for operation on public roads under NYS DMV law. This is the same officially authorized Ferrari dealer who arranged for Ferrari S.p.A. to inspect this car in NY which resulted in Ferrari S.p.A. manufacturing P4 parts that Glickenhaus used in the restoration of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846. Previous discussion before the above[edit]Because I questioned whether Ferrari would have used the method found on the Glickenhaus/Piper 0003 chassis to deal with the issue of fitting the P4 engine to a P3 chassis, I wrote to Ing. Mauro Forghieri, who joined Ferrari in January, 1960 having just graduated at the University of Bologna in Mechanical Engineering and was the Chief Technical Director at Ferrari's Race Department from October, 1961 to 1984. As well as all the Formula 1 cars and other Prototypes from this period, he designed the 330 P3, 412P, 330 P3/4 (0846) and 330 P4. I included photos of the engine mountings from Jim Glickenhaus's 0846 pdf document and asked whether or not the engine mountings were his work. Ing. Forghieri was kind enough to look over the photos and respond. I have his permission in writing to post his information, which has been independently authenticated on another web site, as follows: "Dear Mr.Robertson I will say what I remember of so old days.In 1966 we design the 330 P3-0846. This car take part at the 12 h of Sebring number 27 drivers Parkes Bondurant. I like to make clear that P3 and P4 are from aerodinamic point of view very close.The draft was done by the technical bureau of Ferrari racing DPT. MR Drogo had nothing to do with the cars of Ferrari racing departement. The 330 P3 spyder was modified at the end of 1966 in a new P4 with the new 3 valve engine,curved intakes with injection,new Ferrari gearbox, minor modifications to the chassis with 2400 wheelbase.The modest wheelbase was thanks to the good aereodinamic stability developed at the aereodinamic wind tunnel in Stutgart. This prototipe was the test car for private test(first in Ferrari History) in Daytona December 1966. The 0846.P4 spyder was used in the following races 1967: Daytona 24 h winner Amon-Bandini n.23 Targa Florio Vaccarella -Scarfiotti Le Mans 67 Amon-Vaccarella Amon was hit by a flying wheel and the car caught fire and was badly damaged. The car was discarted by Ferrari and the chassis was destroyed. The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount. Your chassis is a P3 arranged by some body to accept the P4 engine and the correct wheelbase 2400. I hope to have been of some help. Kind regards Mauro Forghieri"
From this response, we have learned that: 1. According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was discarded to the scrap yard after Le Mans '67. 2. Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis. 3. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications. 4. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846. 5. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is probably another P3 chassis, modified to accept a P4 engine. Of course, #5 creates another question: Which one and why? However, in corresponding with Ing. Forghieri I did not mention that the Glickenhaus chassis was a replica originally commissioned by David Piper. He only has photographs of the engine mountings so it is understandable why he concluded that it is probably another P3 chassis and not that of a replica of a P3/P4 that the chassis actually is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miurasvjota (talk • contribs) 06:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
"To be perfectly clear" that his department sent damaged no longer needed chassis to the scrap yard and did NOT physically destroy them. After being shown THE entire PDF he also stated in writing that the P 3/4 chassis modifications currently on 0846 today could "Of course" been done by Ferrari. "According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was destroyed after Le Mans '67." Steve Robertson Not true as the following written statement by Mauro Forghieri clearly proves: ">Dear Mr Glickenhaus I will try to clarify my statement regarding the subiect matter. It appears that the greatest point of misunderstanding lies in the use of the words 'scrapped' and 'destroied'.Because I did not,at the time of my answering Mr Robertson inquiry, have a clear picture of the contention,I failed to differentiate between the two words,and may have used them as synoinoms. Now let me clearly state that,when pieces (or even a whole chassis)where discarded from our dpt, we did not engage in any activity intended to phisically destroy it:we merely sent it to the scrap yard,and were no longer concerned to what happened to it. Because we are talking of long time ago,when Ferrari memorabilia trading was not as developed as it is to day,nobody had much interest in the eventual destination of wrecks." Mauro Forghieri "Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications." Steve Robertson Once again not true as the following written statement of Mauro Forghieri clearly proves: "I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere,perhaps even by another Ferrari departement. In the hope to have been of some helps Have my best" Mauro Forghieri
S. Robertson reply to the above by Mr Glickenhaus: MF saying that the wrecked 0846 chassis was sent to the scrap yard and not destroyed by his department does not mean that it was not subsequently destroyed in the scrap yard. It merely means that chassis 0846's provable whereabouts ended in the Ferrari scrap yard. As MF has said that he cannot rule out that the modifications to the Glickenhaus chassis could have been performed elsewhere, perhaps even by another Ferrari department, this means that it could or "perhaps" be an authentic Ferrari chassis, BUT it does mean that it is NOT 0846 as MF again confirms here, as well as in his email to me above, that he did not perform the modifications to the Glickenhaus chassis. It is documented in many places, including Mauro Forghieri's recent book "Forghieri on Ferrari 1947 to the present" that 0846 being transformed from 330 P3 to 330 P3/4, the "prototype P4" for the 1967 season and its modifications were very much the work of Mauro Forghieri and his department and NOT another Ferrari department. Ing. Forghieri was given carte blanche by Enzo Ferrari to build a "superlative Ferrari" after losing the championship in 1966. In conclusion, Mr Glickenhaus has provided more proof from Ing. Forghieri that his chassis is NOT the original Ferrari 0846 that won Daytona in 1967 etc. MF's words speak for thrmselves. Indeed MF's words do speak for themselves. They prove that the Piper/Glickenhaus chassis #0003 clearly is not the original 0846 that won Daytona in 1967. I am no troll. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miurasvjota (talk • contribs) 22:51, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
After being shown THE entire PDF he also stated in writing that the P 3/4 chassis modifications currently on 0846 today could "Of course" been done by Ferrari. "According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was destroyed after Le Mans '67." Steve Robertson Not true as the following written statement by Mauro Forghieri clearly proves: ">Dear Mr Glickenhaus I will try to clarify my statement regarding the subiect matter.
Now let me clearly state that,when pieces (or even a whole chassis)where discarded from our dpt, we did not engage in any activity intended to phisically destroy it:we merely sent it to the scrap yard,and were no longer concerned to what happened to it. Because we are talking of long time ago,when Ferrari memorabilia trading was not as developed as it is to day,nobody had much interest in the eventual destination of wrecks." Mauro Forghieri "Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications." Steve Robertson Once again not true as the following written statement of Mauro Forghieri clearly proves: "I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere,perhaps even by another Ferrari departement. In the hope to have been of some helps Have my best" Mauro Forghieri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.54.104.202 (talk) 20:05, 17 March 2015 (UTC) This Troll's clear response in this post on Ferrari Chat before he was permanently banned clearly speaks for itself as do MF's words that are quoted above. They are clear and in no way support Steve's "conclusions". "Ferrari clearly stated before publishing the fact in their sole discretion that I have been the owner of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 since July 2000 that they first constructed in 1966, what department at Ferrari would have to investigate my submission before Ferrari would allow that to occur. Dear Mr Glickenhaus, We would like to inform you that we have received the complete brochure of your car. We would kindly ask you to provide us with some digital pictures of the car, if possible, so to forward them to the competent department for classical cars. Once these data have been entered, the car can be visualized in your ‘Ferrari Garage’. We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures. Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way. We thank you very much for the kind cooperation and remain at your complete disposal for further information. With kindest regards, Ferrari Customer Care Months ago Steve clearly stated exactly what he felt that meant. " Does Ferrari sanction/vet information posted on the owner's section of their web site before Ferrari actually publish/post it? If as I now suspect that is the case, I have previously been misinformed by being told that the information posted there is posted without sanction by the owners, and therefore I have decided the following: If Ferrari have vetted and agree the information submitted by the owner, and it is Ferrari who have posted/published on their own web site that Jim Glickenhaus is the owner of 0846, then who am I to argue with Ferrari?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.54.104.202 (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2015 (UTC) Since writing the above I have learned many things including the misinformation contained in your 0846 document and misinformation you have posted elsewhere. I changed my mind on learning the actual facts. The Ferrari Factory have never physically inspected your chassis. The following statement by Ing. Forghieri, which has been authenticated by one of your biggest supporters Peter Skudder, is clear: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount." The above proves your chassis is not 0846. Ing. Forghieri's alleged statement to you has not been authenticated. Even if true he is saying that perhaps another Ferrari department carried out the modifications which means his department didn't do them. Can't you see that this proves that your chassis is NOT 0846 as Ing. Forghieri and his Racing Department, not another Ferrari department, carried out the mods to the chassis of the original 0846? You have been asked on a number of occasions to post the full content with no omissions of the written exchange between yourself and Ing. Forghieri so that what he said is not misinterpreted or taken out of context in any way but so far you have failed to do so. There is no proof whatsoever that he has read your 0846 document. The "of course" bit of Ing. Forghieri's alleged statement refers to him not ruling out that your chassis mods could have been done elsewhere and NOT "of course" they could have been done by Ferrari. See below: "I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere,perhaps even by another Ferrari departement." Let's see the FULL exchange with no omissions???? Thank you in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miurasvjota (talk • contribs) 23:08, 17 March 2015 (UTC) MF's words speak for themselves. Robertson remains a troll. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.16.44 (talk) 23:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC) You keep repeating yourself along with misinformation without adding anything. How predictable of you not to post the full written exchange between yourself and Ing. Forghieri. What did Ing. Forghieri say about the conclusion below? You really must have asked him about that. "According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miurasvjota (talk • contribs) 00:15, 18 March 2015 (UTC) I "But let's look at Forghieri's statement. His initial statement was a pretty unambiguous assertion. However as more facts emerged, he started to "walk back" his original statement. (This is PRECISELY the point of cross examination--to flush out details and contradictions.) And as still more facts emerged, he basically recanted his original statement. Or if you prefer, he shot his own statement so full of holes that it would not hold water. And then there is his correspondence with Jim. So, 'if this is the best you got' as a good country lawyer says, then you are sure on thin ice. At best MF is a weak witness. The reality is that his statements end up in favor of Jim." Dave Ferrari Chat. The information alleged to be by Ing. Forghieri that Mr Glickenhaus has posted has not been authenticated. It should be totally disregarded. Even if correct the dialogue between Mr Glickenhaus and Ing. Forghieri has not been posted in its entirety therefore the posted quotes can take on entirely different and incorrect meanings. They do not end up in favour of Jim at all. If correct, the posted quotes only prove that Ing. Forghieri did not carry out the modifications on the Glickenhaus chassis thus proving that it is not 0846. That Ing. Forghieri's department did not destroy the chassis of the original 0846 does not mean that it was not destroyed in the Ferrari scrap yard or elsewhere at a later date. It means that its provable whereabouts ends there. Fact. Miurasvjota (talk) 10:01, 18 March 2015 (UTC) The content regarding 330 P3 and P3/4 #0846 on the main Ferrari P page should be removed as it is factually incorrect: 330 P3 #0846 was modified and put out by Ferrari in November, 1966 as a 330 P3/4, the "prototype P4". 0846's wheelbase both as a P3 and P3/4 remained the same at 2400mm. Source Mauro Forghieri - the designer of P3 and P3/4 0846. Only the P3/412P and 412P cars 0844, 0848, 0850 and 0854 ever had a wheelbase of 2412mm and this was when the ZF 5DS gearbox was installed in them, not the tipo 593 and tipo 603R Ferrari gearboxes. 0846 as a P3 or as P3/4 never had a ZF 5DS gearbox installed in it. 0846 P3/4 did not retain the P3 engine mounts. The rear of the chassis was transformed and was modified in the correct way to accept the P4 engine. There is no conclusive proof that the original 0846 chassis has resurfaced in the possession of James Glickenhaus. Tom Meade told Wayne Ausbrooks that he had no recollection of ever having the chassis 0846. This was also posted on Ferrari Chat while he was still alive and was not contested thus disproving Tom Meade's deathbed statement. There is no proof whatsoever that Tom Meade sold the chassis of 0846 to the original chassis maker. There is no conclusive proof that the original wrecked chassis of 0846 that won Daytona in 1967 etc is part of the car owned by JG today. Mauro Forghieri did not say - "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari." What Mauro Forghieri actually did state in writing, which has been authenticated, after looking at the pictures of the engine mountings on the Glickenhaus chassis is: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount." thus proving the Glickenhaus chassis is not 0846. The Ferrari factory has not physically inspected the chassis of JG. Ferrari have not "published" on their official website that Ferrari P3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. Miurasvjota (talk) 09:24, 19 March 2015 (UTC) Additionally JG cites in his 0846 pdf (pages 63 - 64) the Technical Data Sheet (see below) of 0846 for 1967 as proof that the engine mountings on his chassis identify it as 0846, whereas the details in the Technical Data Sheet[8] cited actually prove it is not 0846: "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET FOR 330 P3/P4 (1967) Chassis N. 0846. Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4 model. Chassis Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part of the rear of the chassis for new type 237 (P4) engine mountings." Although he doesn't say so the above is lifted straight from Christian Huet's 1995 Cavalleria book Ferrari P3/412P. James's chassis has been modified to accept a 312 Formula 1 engine, that he bought the car with, which has similar mountings/co-ordinates to a P4 engine but it has not been done in the way cited above. The tubular part of the rear of the chassis has not been "transformed" for the new P4 type mountings. All that has been done are adaptors have been bolted on so that the 312 F1 engine will fit. James's replica chassis is not type 593/603 (P3/P4). It remains type 593 (P3). For 1967 0846's chassis was modified and transformed to accept a supporting P4 engine. However, the way the engine mount mods have been carried out on JG's chassis the adaptors do not take advantage of the added rigidity of the P4 engine block. On JG's chassis the P3 engine mounts are still in place. It does not have P4 engine mounts. It just has the P3 mountings plus the bolt on adaptors. The added rigidity that the P4 block would bring is lost by these bolt on adaptors. They compromise the rigidity by offsetting the load and stresses away from the central point of the meeting of the tubes. This is more proof that this chassis is not 0846. Also to be clear, James's car actually has a 312 F1 block in it, not a P4 block. Don't forget that P3 0846 was used as the design basis for the P4. At the end of November, 1966 the Ferrari team, headed by Ing. Forghieri, took 0846 to Daytona for an unprecedented testing session to make sure they got the car right for the race proper in February, 1967 which 0846 won. The car broke all previous speed records in the test. As Ing. Forghieri said in his email to me regarding the engine mountings on JG's chassis: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount." Ferrari would never have gone to the expense of taking a team of top engineers and World Class Drivers with P3/4 0846 from Maranello in Italy to Daytona in the USA to test a car with a less than optimum and compromised solution of mounting the tipo 237 P4 engine that was designed to support and strengthen the chassis. James does not have a statement from Ferrari saying his car is 0846. Ferrari have said that the chassis of 0846 was definitively scrapped due to its race history and fire damages suffered. They added that "if this is the case" that eventual pieces were taken from the trash container they should not have been used to rebuild or revival a car that was written off and that 0846 had a sad conclusion. That is not a statement from Ferrari that his car is 0846. Miurasvjota (talk) 22:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC) _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ NEWS FROM CHRISTIAN HUET - AUTHOR OF THE "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" PUBLISHED IN JAMES GLICKENHAUS'S 0846 DOCUMENT. The following is from pages 63 and 64 of James Glickenhaus's 0846 pdf document. Glickenhaus says: "I thought about that and recently noticed something. The following is taken from the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n. 0846" The only car in all the Technical Data Sheets labeled "330 P3/P4" " -330 P3/P4 - SCHEDA TECNICA" (TECHNICAL DATA SHEET) 330 P3/P4 (1967) Telaio N 0846 Trasformazione di un modello P3 secondo le caratteristiche del modello P4. TELAIO Telaio Tipo 593/603. Trasformazione della parte posteriore tubolare del telaio per i nuovi putoni del motore Tipo 237." "330 P3/P4 (1967) Chassis n. 0846 Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4 model. Chassis Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part at the rear of the chassis for new Type 237 [P4] engine mountings." Glickenhaus says: This transformation of 593/603 P3 to P4 is clearly visible on my chassis and doesn't exist on 0900, 0900a, or 0856 as they are built to the 1967 P4 chassis blueprints. By comparing my chassis with P3 0844, one can see how this transformation from P3 to P4 was done."
Recently I have been communicating with Christian Huet, the highly regarded French Ferrari writer who is the author of the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" above which is cited in JG's pdf document as proof that his chassis is the original and authentic 0846. Please note that James Glickenhaus does not give credit to Christian Huet or his Cavalleria book Ferrari 330 P3/412P as the source of information that he has copied and published in his 0846 document. Regarding the engine mountings of the original and real 0846 Christian Huet stated in writing (in French which was translated): "I have found the notebook for my books about Ferrari, where I wrote my questions and MF's replies. Concerning 0846, the modification of the P3 type 593 chassis, into a P4 type 603 required the total replacement of the rear of the chassis, which was then, absolutely identical to those of the P4s type 603." On looking at the pictures from his 0846 document of the engine mountings on James Glickenhaus's chassis, Christian Huet stated the following: "Concerning the photos showing the engine mounting of the P4 motor on "the so-called 0846", I deduce that it's a "DIY job" without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari, which I have studied/known for many years." I have the written permission of Christian Huet to share this information.Miurasvjota (talk) 00:48, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
There were no vestigial P3 engine mountings on the chassis of the original P3/4 0846. There were no bolt on adaptors on the original P3/4 0846 to make the P4 engine fit. The P4 (or 312 F1) engine mounting on the Glickenhaus "so called 0846" chassis is a "DIY" job without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari. James must now finally concede that he has misinterpreted and misquoted the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET (SCHEDA TECNICA) cited in his 0846 pdf document which actually proves that his chassis is NOT the original 0846. Over to you, James????Miurasvjota (talk) 05:36, 27 April 2015 (UTC) I see the above information from Ing. Forghieri and Christian Huet that proves the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846 that won Daytona in 1967 was edited and removed. I have re-edited the page to re-include the information. There has been no plausible reply from Glickenhaus. The information from me, miurasvjota is verified and correct. The information currently contained on the main Ferrari P article page regarding Ferrari P3/4 0846 should be removed as it contains masses of misinformation. I have also removed the libellous content from James Glickenhaus and Andrew Neurobeaker calling me a troll. It is irrelevant to the topics discussed here and has no bearing on any of the verifiable facts that I have posted here. Miurasvjota (talk) 19:42, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
@Mr. Choppers. I did add new comments at the bottom until Mr Glickenhaus started responding at the top around the beginning of August. Everything I have written is true and verifiable. The statements to me by Ing. Mauro Forghieri, 0846's designer, and Christian Huet have been independently authenticated. Just reading my posts you can see that the main article is full of misinformation. Miurasvjota (talk) 03:09, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
"121Designer A great lunch with Ed Niles, Larry Crane and Murray Cogan, all Ferrari blood. I brought up the 0846 to Larry in conversation. Guess what? Tom told him that chassis was sitting around the shop for years... Just like I stated in Tom's deathbed statement." An email reprinted in Cavallino Magazine from Forghieri dated Jan 25, 2005 6:58 AM YEARS BEFORE HIS EMAIL TO STEVE ROBERTSON CLEARLY STATES THAT THE MODIFICATIONS DONE TO 0846'S P3 CHASSIS TO FIT A P4 ENGINE WERE DONE OUTSIDE OF THE FACTORY NOT IN HOUSE. YEARS BEFORE HIS EMAIL TO STEVE ROBERTSON, FORGHIERI CLEARLY STATES: "Yes the modification was done outside the factory. What was the official Ferrari model number for this car in 1967? Was this car called a 330 P 3/4, 330 P3/4S or a 330 P4? From our side the car was a bastard 330 P 3/4. Best regards Mauro Forghieri" Forghieri also very clearly stated in 2005 that his relocations at that point were vague as that was a long time ago. In 2005 Forghieri admitted in Cavallino that his recollection of 38 years ago was cloudy. After writing to Steve Robertson he totally walked back his statement to Steve Robertson: In his email to Steve Robertson Forghieri stated "Chris was hit by a flying wheel" when nothing remotely like than ever happened. Mauro's recollection of what happened 48 years ago wasn't exactly up to par. Coupled with his total backtracking on cross examination when he admitted: "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari." and his recent debacle failing to restore the 1.5L F1 car he designed 51 years ago, "Disaster" was the word FS used, the results of the recent 512 Pinin consult, and his aborted new supercar project what you easily deduced is the state of MF's current affairs. The real ultra stupidity of Steve Robertson's jumping the shark was his latest Huet comments. Firstly the misinformation that Huet published that Steve loves to parrot "Type 603R gearbox in 412P 0854" besides being totally false is easily seen to be totally not true with one's own naked eyes by anyone who's ever looked at 0854's gearbox as real experts like Marcel Massini and Keith Bluemel who not only have and have also looked at 0846 as it exists today, and after looking at 0846 as currently owned by me recently also clearly reported in writing that 0846 owned by me has attended several top concours. Should anyone want to confirm Huet's falsehood of " 0854 603 R" for themselves all they have to do is to have a look this summer during Pebble Car Week. Back to Huet's beyond stupid comments. Lets see, it's December 66. You need to mule 0846 to fit a new P4 engine and have her at Daytona for testing in a few weeks. You ( according to Huet) cut off the entire rear end of the chassis? Including the north/south one piece load bearing chassis tubes and what? butt weld an entire new rear section on to the now cut north/south load bearing tubes? Butt weld tubes that give the chassis it's structure and carry oil and water and would flex at the butt welds causing the chassis to destroy itself in short order??? Or you simply weld two additional motor mounts to accept the new motor to the existing chassis and two bushings and you're good to go with no additional work? Even MF's mind isn't too far gone to remember those pesky P3 "vestigial motor mounts" which 0846 originally had. The following: "Because I questioned" is from Steve Robertson who has been banned from Ferrari Chat, Ferrari Life and the FB group Ferrari sport e prototipi anni '60/'70. These bans and the reasons given for them speak for themselves and should not have been deleted by Robertson because he feels: "It is irrelevant to the topics discussed here". Robertson's statement that follows is laughable. There has been a lot of refutation of his posts including the one cited here which was posted a long time ago and clearly referenced his postings. Robertson referring to himself in the third person as being "verified and correct" which he does on this page also speaks for itself. "There has been no plausible reply from Glickenhaus. The information from miurasvjota is verified and correct." His rant that follows also speaks for itself and is not true. I did not write the passage he states I did. The person who did is clearly verifiable in the history of the article and is absolutely not me. Robertson's reckless disregard for the truth is once again noted. "Re the 3rd person thing I thought I'd take a leaf out of your book as you do it all the time including in the main article for 0846 here. What does it say and how do you refer to yourself? "James Glickenhaus a former movie director and stock exchange magnate." His statement: "Yes, I have been banned from FerrariChat and FerrariLife but not for the reasons cited by Neurobeaker who I have been advised to sue by a highly regarded lawyer. I was banned for getting to the truth of the matter and for asking questions you could not and would not answer after ridiculous claims made by you." in light of the facts as publically stated by the person who banned Robertson from Ferrari Chat speak for them selves as do the reasons he was banned from the other sites referenced "I personally banned miurasv. Disagreeing with Jim is fine and not believing this car is the chassis of the raced 0846 is fine (notice that others with opposing opinions haven't been moderated?). Having a different opinion to those that believe the story of 0846's rediscovery is not why miurasv was banned. He was a relentless attack dog rehashing previously answered issues on 0846. Long after Jim left the thread, he continued to "call him out", then Jim temporarily stopped posting on this forum and miurasv followed him elsewhere to "call him out" there as well as continuing to do it here. In my judgement, the motivation was not to find the truth, but rather to make his bones as "the man who took down 0846 as a fraud", and others were also prepared to use him as an conduit for questions to attack the car and/or Jim. That he was harassing Jim no matter where Jim might go to avoid him was painfully obvious. While famous folk with famous cars will attract a lot of attention and discussion, a line must be drawn to prevent harassment. FerrariChat.com is not the only online venue to take this position on miurasv and these activities of his were stopped on other sites too. If that's not enough justification for you, here's some more: He was spamming our site with the entire inventories of dealers that he didn't work for in order to try to impress them for a job (he was even spamming the Facebook pages of these dealers with images of cars they were not selling), and he then shilled directly on the forum for a dealer that was passing him links to cars. Much of his spam was removed by our moderator team, including me. He didn't take up sponsorship as a professional broker but presented adverts on the forum as one (some still in FerrariAds, some removed from elsewhere on the forum) and profile was essentially one big advertisement for his commercial services - have a look: miurasv. I personally exchanged messages with him over a few months, trying to nudge him in the right direction, but obviously that strategy was unsuccessful. So much of what he did on this site was not for the joy of cars but for personal gain. The ending story of miurasv was: agenda agenda agenda - he was toxic to this forum and our membership, constantly looking for ways to circumvent sponsorship rules and promote either himself, dealers he was loosely associated with, or dealers he wanted to be associated with. He irritated a great many people across the forum, huge numbers had him on their ignore lists, and quite a few privately expressed appreciation when he was finally shown the door. Those who know me should also know that I am amongst the first to apologise hat in hand when I realise I've made a mistake, but that ban is not an error. The long overdue ban of miurasv was an appropriate action for many reasons, is justified half a dozen times over, and I will not apologise for it or overturn it. Sincerely Andrew FerrariChat"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.194.157.241 (talk) 17:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the modification to the genuine 0846 being done outside the factory, Ing. Forghieri as 0846's designer and Chief Technical Director of the Ferrari Racing Department would have still had to oversee and inspect any work on 0846 that it had. It does not mean at all that he would have accepted the "DIY Job" as Christian Huet, the author of the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET that you cite in your 0846 document, called it, that has been done on your replica chassis. Most chassis built for Ferrari racing cars were built outside the factory by companies such as Vaccari so I don't understand your point at all. Anyone's recollection from 38 or 50 odd years ago would be cloudy but on seeing the pictures of the modifications to your chassis anyone with half a brain can see that it's a bodge job not fit for any real racing Ferrari and certainly not one that would stand 24 hours of flat out racing by the best drivers in the world, as Ing. Forghieri did when he saw them. The thing is though, the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET was written over 20 years ago from notes taken by Christian Huet from Ing. Forghieri during actual meetings and written correspondence as well as archival material from Gianni Rogliatti who had access to Ferrari records in the early seventies. There would have been no question at all of Ing. Forghieri's recollections being cloudy then so you're continual argument about Ing. Forghieri's memory does not stand up in the slightest. The way you have spoken about Ing. Forghieri is absolutely disgusting. Show some respect for the man who has made such a massive contribution to the history of Ferrari.
Re your following statement in inverted commas I will comment below: "Coupled with his total backtracking on cross examination when he admitted: "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari." You are a liar. Ing. Forghieri did not say "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari." You have twisted what he said. What you said he said was: "I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere,perhaps even by another Ferrari departement." and what this confirms is that Ing. Forghieri didn't do the mods to your chassis which is further confirmation that your chassis is not the original 0846 as he most certainly did oversee the modifications to the real and genuine 0846 as has been documented in many places. Ing. Forghieri has never said anything about recognising the vestigial P3 engine mountings on your chassis. The real 0846 when modified from P3 to accept the P4 engine did not have the vestigial P3 mounts. The P3 mounts and their tubing were removed and replaced with P4 mounts. Prove me wrong. Ing. Forghieri has not totally backtracked his statement to me al all. On the contrary, he has confirmed it in writing to Peter Skudder. Again, prove me wrong. Marco Arrighi, Head of Ferrari Classiche has confirmed in writing that tipo 603R is the correct gearbox for a 330 P4 so again it is you who is guilty of stupidity, not me or Christian Huet. So you are happy to call Christian Huet stupid and ridicule his TECHNICAL DATA SHEET which states that the correct gearbox later used in all 412P cars and all P4s was the 603R, yet you also have the gall to cite this very same TECHNICAL DATA SHEET written by the very same man, Christian Huet in proving your car is the real 0846 by quoting in your 0846 document and elsewhere the following: "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET: 330 P3/P4 (1967) Chassis n. 0846 Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4 model. Chassis Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part at the rear of the chassis for new Type 237 [P4] engine mountings." Christian Huet has clarified his meaning of the above and it does not fit your chassis. The modified 0846 chassis at the rear was identical to a P4. There were no vestigial P3 engine mountings or "DIY Job" bolt on P4 adaptors. He went on to say about the pictures of your chassis: "Concerning the photos showing the engine mounting of the P4 motor on "the so-called 0846", I deduce that it's a "DIY job" without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari, which I have studied/known for many years." The above was revealed more than 3 months ago by Christian Huet yet you to this day are still citing his TECHNICAL DATA SHEET in your 0846 pdf document as proof that your chassis is the real and original 0846. Your document is full of misinformation and lies.
Yes, I have been banned from FerrariChat and FerrariLife but not for the reasons cited by Neurobeaker who I have been advised to sue by a highly regarded lawyer. I was banned for getting to the truth of the matter and for asking questions you could not and would not answer after ridiculous claims made by you. If any of the facts I have presented above are wrong I invite you to PROVE that they are wrong. My posting from Ing. Forghieri has been verified and is correct as has been confirmed by one your biggest supporters, Peter Skudder, Psk on FerrariChat. Re the 3rd person thing I thought I'd take a leaf out of your book as you do it all the time including in the main article for 0846 here. What does it say and how do you refer to yourself? "James Glickenhaus a former movie director and stock exchange magnate." ROFL.Miurasvjota (talk) 20:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
The FB group that Steve Robertson has been banned from Ferrari sport e prototipi anni '60/'70, is identified by it's administer Sbrissa Dino Sante below as well as the reason for his banning Robertson, and Sante's views on Huet as posted on 8/10/2015 by Sbrissa Dino Sante: "he has seen racing cars only on the papers .... and not as I did for 30 years giving life and body on race and road engines ..... Huet is a model maker and they think to know everything ... but they know nothing ......I deleted 6/7 french members for that reason ..they thinks to know everything about the Ferrari ... but they really do not know anything .... I know well the story of your car and I have no doubts about its originality..." May 21st, 5:31pm Sbrissa Dino Sante "Mr. Steven Robertson was removed and locked even in our Ferrari Sport / Prototypes 60/70 years for defaming his person Mr.James Glickenhaus ... it was my duty to put the current directors Paolo and Devodier Sbrissa Dino Sante Best regards" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.54.104.202 (talk) 18:26, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Marcel Massini and Keith Bluemel have only stated 0846 has attended certain concours because you claim that you have legally registered it at the US DMV as the number 0846. They have not actually said that your car/chassis is the actual original 0846 that won Daytona in 1967 etc. They have not authenticated it at all as the original 0846. There has been no statement from Bluemel or Massini authenticating your chassis as the original 0846. Please prove me wrong. Of course you won't because you can't prove me wrong. Any tubes that originate from the middle/front of the chassis and extend to the back on the original 0846 would remain intact with no need for removal or to be cut. It's only the tubes at the back that extend from the rear bulkhead backwards that would have been replaced to make the rear of the chassis on the real and original 0846 identical to a P4. CH wasn't talking about any tubes starting from the middle/front that extend to the back being replaced. What he said was ".....required the total replacement of the rear of the chassis." What you are talking about would require replacing the REAR chassis PLUS some of the FRONT/REAR chassis. Using bolt on adaptors, as on your chassis, to fit a P4 engine (or 312 F1 engine as was/is fitted to your chassis) to a P3 chassis just does not work as it compromises the rigidity of the chassis placing excessive stress on parts of the frame which are not designed to take it such as the bolted on triangles attached on left and right sides nearest the firewall/bulkhead. Loads should enter and leave the chassis at the point of intersection of the tubes and they don't on all left and right side engine mountings on your chassis, the ones which you say identify it as the original 0846 as shown in your 0846 pdf. "It's a 'DIY job' without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari" as Christian Huet said. Don't forget that this was a semi monocoque chassis which used lighter and thinner gauge steel tubing than previously used and utilised the engine as a stressed member to add rigidity to the chassis. The actual mounting point positions were essential in achieving this rigidity. That's why for the P4 the side mounting points on the chassis were moved forward towards the bulkhead to take advantage of the webbed/ribbed stronger block/crankcase of the P4 engine over the P3 engine. Ing. Forghieri has said nothing whatsoever about remembering those pesky vestigial P3 motor mounts which 0846 originally had. You are again lying. It's total and utter BS. What a disgusting man you are to say what you said about Ing. Forghieri's mind. You can't defeat the argument so attack the man instead. Well done, James!Miurasvjota (talk) 19:37, 11 August 2015 (UTC) Re Sbrissa Dino Sante: As most of your supporters, he clearly hasn't taken the time to study the actual facts to reach an informed conclusion about your chassis. I have not defamed you. Everything I say I can back up with evidence that stands scrutiny, which is a lot more than you and him can say. To belittle Christian Huet as a mere model maker is ridiculous. Marcel Massini has stated that he guarantees that Christian Huet knows MUCH more about Ferraris than even the world renowned and highly respected author/motoring journalist Karl Ludvigsen. Everything that CH wrote was from actual research, meetings in person and written correspondence with Ing. Forghieri and Gianni Rogliatti over 20 years ago. James, you don't seem to be able to comprehend and then respect the fact that Ing. Forghieri was the actual designer who oversaw the build of the Ferrari prototypes including 0846 and its modification to P3/4. Miurasvjota (talk) 14:43, 21 August 2015 (UTC) |
"P" for "prototype"?
[edit]From the article:
The 250 P was a Prototype racer...
The italics on the initial letter give the impression that the "P" in "250P" is from "prototype". While possible, this is unlikely. It is more likely that "P" means "posteriore", the Italian word for "behind", which is where the engine is. The Lamborghini Miura was similarly designated "P400", which signified "Posteriore 4 litri".
I have not yet found any references for this, but the insinuation that the "P" means "prototype" isn't cited either.
Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 10:48, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
I won't claim to be an expert on this, but I believe Ferrari used the "P" to designate that the car was built to conform to the Prototype rules used by the WSC at the time. I'm fairly certain they used "S" to designate that a car was built for the WSC's other primary category, "Sports Cars". I'm basing this entirely on the observation that, when the WSC changed the engine-displacement and homologation rules a few years later, Ferrari designed the 312P to race in the P3.0 class and the 512S to race in the S5.0 class.
275 P and 330 P
[edit]Regarding the main page for these cars - They did not have a longer wheelbase. It was the same as the 250 P at 2400mm. Miurasvjota (talk) 18:33, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Glickenhaus P3/P4
[edit]Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a forum, so slug it out somewhere else, not here! This has been going on for years, so it's time for it to stop. Thomas.W talk 12:09, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
- Since neither of the parties is willing to stop, and IPs that obviously represent the other party in the dispute have repeatedly tried to remove the post below, I'm striking my own comment. Thomas.W talk 11:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Ing. Forghieri had written the two documents addressed to Mr Glickenhaus dated the 23rd of February, 2016 and 14th March, 2016 based on a "tourist's glance" at Mr Glickenhaus's car at Amelia Island a few years ago and some very brief documentation that was made available to him. Ing. Forghieri stated that Mr Glickenhaus had not provided him with any documentation. He had not thoroughly inspected the chassis as Mr Glickenhaus had stated or subjected it to a technical analysis. Since writing the letters I sent some pictures of Mr Glickenhaus's chassis to Ing. Forghieri and he has confirmed that it is not the chassis he took to Daytona for testing in December, 1966. Therefore it is not the 1967 winner of the 24 Hours of Daytona as the car that won at Daytona 1967 was the car that Ing. Forghieri had tested at Daytona in December, 1966. On looking over the photographs of the chassis Ing. Forghieri had said that the rear of the of the chassis of the fake P4 ...."falsa P4 di Glickenhaus." was completely new and the biggest differences to a real one were at the front section that had not been restored.
There is also now photographic proof in the form of independent period photographs by the noted automotive journalist Karl Ludvigsen which have been posted on www.ferrarichat.com that the real Ferrari P3/P4 0846 did not retain its P3 engine mountings as Mr Glickenhaus has proposed and stated for years and that these identify his car as the real 0846. The primary engine mountings on Mr Glickenhaus's chassis have also been built to P4 plans but located in the P3 position to fit the P3 type engine with less than ideal bolt on adaptors later fitted to mount a 312 F1 36 valve engine which Mr Glickenhaus wrongly claims is a P4 engine. The photographs prove that the rear of the chassis on the real 0846 was converted to be identical to a P4 with correct P4 engine mountings to mount the Tipo 237 P4 engine with the P3 mountings removed. All this is proof the Glickenhaus chassis is not 0846 and is a replica as was bought from and described by David Piper. Miurasvjota (talk) 20:13, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
Regarding the replicas I have removed the information on the main Ferrari P page as they do not belong on the same page as genuine Ferrari cars. Miurasvjota (talk) 14:19, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
P4/5 has nothing whatsoever to do with the Ferrari Prototype Racing cars of the 1960s. It should not be on this page. It is quite correctly referred to in the Ferrari Enzo section which is what the car is with a different body.It is a road car not a Ferrari P racing car. Miurasvjota (talk) 21:40, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
"falsa P4 di Glickenhaus" Ing. Mauro Forghieri - Designer of Ferrari 330 P3/P4 0846.
[edit]Somebody is back on Wikipedia perpetuating the Glickenhaus misinformation that the P4 replica Mr Glickenhaus bought from David Piper is the long lost genuine Ferrari 0846 despite there now being period photographs of the real Ferrari 0846 that show the Glickenhaus/Piper chassis to be completely different proving it is not 0846. The designer of the real 0846 Ing. Forghieri has also stated on the 10th of May, 2016 that the Glickenhaus car is a "falsa P4" fake P4. See below:
After considering information and pictures sent to him of the DP0003 Glickenhaus chassis and cylinder block stampings, Ing. Mauro Forghieri, designer/creator at Ferrari of the real 330 P3/P4 #0846, sent me an email on 10th May, 2016, the content of which, in his words in Italian, is as follows below. Scroll down for English translation:
"Gent.mo Sig. Robertson Io penso che lei sia il maggiore esperto di P4 esistente.La serie di foto che mi ha inviato mi hanno fatto enorme piacere, in particolare quella della 412 s/n854 prima nuda e poi in restauro.Le devo comunque fare osservare che sia la vettura di Glinkenhaus che la vera P4 s/n 0858 non hanno il tubo da lei indicato con le frecce rosse nella foto n 4(412 P s/n0854 ) mentre hanno il tubo che lei indica sempre con le frecce nella foto n 3(dp3 arrows).Questo diversa soluzione è dovuta alle differenze tra motore 412 e 330.La parte posteriore del telaio della falsa P4 di Glinkenhaus è stata fatta nuova e questi particolari non potevano sfuggire ai carrozzieri, che avevano già costruito vere P4.E' nella parte anteriore che non è stata rifatta, che mi sembra sia la maggiore distanza dal vero.Lei dimostra comunque che la vettura di Glinkenhaus non è una P4 originale con le sue foto relative al motore,ed inoltre la posizione della stessa Ferrari, che ha negato il numero a cui è molto affezzionato Glinkenhaus,e la mia stessa convinzione negativa e quanto asserito da altri non dovrebbe fare credere che questa vettura possa essere considerata originale.Io non sono potuto andare in Sicilia per motivi di salute e di lavoro, ma sarò a Montecarlo.Ho cercato di fare chiarezza sui due tipi di telaio per evitarle commenti e problematiche. Grazie per tutto con infinite cordialità e rispetto Mauro Forghieri"
Gabriele Longoni very kindly translated Ing. Forghieri's above email which is as below:
"Dearest Mr.Robertson
I believe you are the biggest P4 expert living nowadays.
I really liked the set of pictures you sent, especially the one about 412 s/n0854 bare chassis and during restoration.
Please note, however, that both Glickenhaus’ car and the real P4 #0858 don’t have the tube you pointed with red arrows on picture n°4 (412P s/n0854) while they have the tube you point with arrows on picture n°3 (dp3 arrows).
This different configuration is because of the differences between a 412 and a 330 engine.
The rear portion of Glickenhaus’ fake P4 is completely new and these details couldn’t have been missed by coachbuilders that built real P4s.
I believe that the biggest differences from a real one are in the front section.
You, with those engine pictures, are proving that Glickenhaus’ car is not a real P4; and Ferrari’s belief too is proving it, because they refuse the number that Glickenhaus loves most; my personal negative belief then and what others said should make anyone believe that this car is original.
I could not travel to Sicily due to health and work issues, but I will go to Montecarlo.
I tried to make things more clear to avoid further problems to you.
Thanks for everything, respectfully and with the best regards.
Mauro Forghieri" Miurasvjota (talk) 16:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
"Mugello accident"
[edit]Ferrari states they never ran a P4 mule at the Mugello road course in 1967 or 1968, neither by Scuderia Ferrari nor by the Customer Department in Modena. From 1966 and 1967 all log book are available (racing activities and testing). Press was invited on every test at Aerautodromo Modena, Vallelunga, Monza or Pergusa. No Ferrari factory drivers or clients were involved in an accident with a P4 after the BOAC 500 1967. Ferrari's next test was in 1968 with the 312 P at Monza. Thomas75ferrari (talk) 21:38, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
Restorations & More of Ferrari P cars
[edit]- Ferrari 412P #0844 restoration
- Ferrari 412P #0854 wreck (Paul Hawkins biography 'Hawkeye' by McLeod and 'Pipes" book by Mills, Reed & Young)
- Ferrari 412P #0854 restoration
- Ferrari 330 P4 history #0856
- Ferrari 330 P4 #0858 restoration
- Ferrari 330 P4 replica #0846 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas75ferrari (talk • contribs) 17:32, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
ASI and FIVA not qualified to determine the authenticity/originality of Piper DP003 as Ferrari Prototype 0846.
[edit]Claims are being made that the owner of the P4 replica DP003 built by David Piper has had the car authenticated as the original Ferrari 0846 by the ASI and FIVA. These bodies do not have the authority or the expertise to determine the authenticity of a Ferrari Prototype. Ferrari have stated that 0846 no longer exists and there is substantial photographic proof that this Piper P4 replica is not 0846. Miurasvjota (talk) 02:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Ferrari 250 LM article?
[edit]Ferrari 250 LM should be an article, like Ferrari 250 GTO, not just a redirect here. Unlike the real low number prototype models, it was "mass produced" by the dozens with intent to (h)omologate it as GT. That failed, but it became a Gr.4 sportscar in 1966, somehow, but was mostly beaten by the GT40 in the same class. Some 4+ years of race history 1964 to 1967 when a 250LM won class at Brands Hatch. Question for experts: well after the 1965 LM24 win, a private Ferrari 250LM chassis won a major World Championship round for Ferrari, yet noone seems to care. 2003:C6:3748:E8EB:B1AA:21AC:112F:6EBA (talk) 22:15, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
Article needs to get split
[edit]This article was created in 2005 as a list of all Ferrari P sportscars from 1963 to 1967, plus the LM. It is overdue to get split into articles that cover at least model ranges with same engine size. As most talk focuses on the 330P4 chassis controversies, I suggest that this article gets moved to Ferrari 330P to contain all the big engine stuff and Wiki-history, while Ferrari 250 P, Ferrari 250 LM and Ferrari 275 P are created as new articles from scratch rather than redirecting into this mess here. ~2026-36827-05 (talk) 23:24, 4 July 2026 (UTC)
- I think that's fair, support split along these lines. Mr.choppers | ✎ 05:25, 5 July 2026 (UTC)