Talk:False protagonist

Tekken Example Source

@SummerPhDv2.0: I think this article should work. At #4 it lists Kazuya and points out his transition from a hero to an antagonist. Asking here first to avoid any more edit conflicts https://www.denofgeek.com/games/tekken-ranking-all-the-characters/ 2604:2000:1107:8A76:FD65:F481:2453:274 (talk) 22:28, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

The article does not say anyone is a "false protagonist". This is original research. "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:23, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe you read the article. Besides I did a check on the sources and besides the film and video game examples, they’re not all necessary articles only about a false protagonist character. The ones that are currently being accepted don’t even reference this idea word for word, but simply talk about a character's transition from a protagonist role to an alternative role. The article I gave you does reference this character's portrayal as a hero and later as a villain. I could try and reference the Tekken wiki itself or use the myriad of other sources I went out of my way to provide but I doubt you’d allow that.

” Kazuya is the ultimate asshole. [...] From the very beginning, he’s painted as the generic martial arts hero and gets his revenge on the evil man who vexed him... only to take joy at his action and simply take over his father’s corrupt business [...] It’s why the sccene where Jinpachi dies in his arms is so amazing. He’s the ultimate anti-villain.“

2604:2000:1107:8A76:FD65:F481:2453:274 (talk) 10:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I read the article. Then I searched the article. The word "protagonist" shows up once, calling a different character the protagonist.

The article does not call anyone a false protagonist. Part of the problem seems to be that you believe "protagonist" is simply another word for "hero", which is simply not the case. So, assuming "a hero and later as a villain" = "false protagonist" is original research.

The reason to include examples here is to clarify what a "false protagonist" is. Sources for this article must directly discuss false protagonists.

To be clear: I am not saying everything else in the article is perfect. I am saying your addition is original research and does not belong here. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:05, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

As for your removals, they both seem fine.

Yes, someone above argued that the "Book of Samuel" (oh my) is a bad example. I don't know if it is or isn't (the Bible isn't my thing). As presented, it was poorly sourced (not unsourced). The cite given, "Gordon 1986, p. 18." was formatted to link to a source repeatedly used in the article, like it is here. It looks like someone copied the cite from that other article without caring how the cite works or -- and this is the important part -- what the cite says.

I don't have my institutional access at the moment, but I find it difficult to believe that "I & II Samuel: A Commentary (Library of Biblical Interpretation)" from a Christian publishing house is approaching the Books of Samuel as literature and that it just happens to label Samuel as a "false protagonist" on the same page where it is defining the books as prophetic histories. (I've removed the accompanying image as it certainly doesn't belong here if the example is gone.)

Aladdin might be a better example (though again whoever added it gets the name of the book wrong). It is, however, unsourced. I might have looked for a source, but whatever. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:31, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

You are nitpicking and purposefully misinterpreting what I’m saying. I understand what a protagonist means, and Kazuya fits that description because the story followed his journey for revenge until the second game, where he transitioned to a villain. My citations explained this but as far as I know you’re only asking for an article pointing out he turned from protagonist to villain, which this article does.

Alot of people don’t know the difference between a protagonist and hero and use the words interchangeably. That’s the case for his article which says he went from hero to villain, and that the story followed his journey in the first installment. That’s a protagonist. Just because it doesn't use Wikipedia terminology that doesn’t invalidate it. None of the other examples say “False protagonist” but still describe the plot device to a T. I understand if you feel like the 2 preexisting Videogame examples are enough, and a third is not needed. That would have to be the reason since everything else I’m doing here is correct. If that’s why you’re removing this example then I’d understand.

Also I only meant to remove Aladdin, as it was unsourced (As per your criteria). My mistake. 2604:2000:1107:8A76:4D4:F66C:C98A:E8A0 (talk) 17:34, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

You keep saying the character changes "from protagonist to villain" as if the two are inherently not the same character. They might be.

No, I am not looking for a source that uses "Wikipedia terminology". I am looking for sources that directly state the example is a "false protagonist". That is not Wikipedia's term. The term pre-dates Wikipedia, the Internet, etc. That you feel the description used by a source fulfills the definition of a false protagonist is not the source directly stating the character is a false protagonist. - SummerPhD^v2.0 19:44, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Your first sentence makes no sense. And none of the sources listed reference any character as a “False protagonist”. Word for word. They describe the concept of compares it to another example. According to you criteria, the entire examples section is null and void. Since they don’t say the term word for word then it doesn’t happen because we at Wikipedia are apparently too stupid to look into a definition for a concept. Thanks for clarifying. Goodbye. 2604:2000:1107:8A76:4D4:F66C:C98A:E8A0 (talk) 21:21, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry you did not understand the first sentence.

I'm sorry you do not understand Wikipedia's policies.

Bye. - SummerPhD^v2.0 00:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Deleted examples.

To everyone who added all of those example, please bring your grievances here. Some of them are good but there cannot be too many. And each example also has to be notable, as well as cited by a source that refers to this literary technique in use. It can’t just be a thing among someone’s fandom, it has to be largely known at large by the video game, anime, or film community as an example of this technique. 2604:2000:1107:8A76:1B6:1048:4608:DC56 (talk) 16:05, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Fantine is the most famous French literary example of the False Protagonist, dying at the end of the opening section of the novel Les Miserables from an STD. Her daughter Cosette replaces her as the novel's actual thematic "main character". I support this example being restored. Although the character is the secondary protagonist to Jean Valjean, it is an extremely famous example. You should watch the 2012 film adaptation where she was played by Anne Hathaway in her Oscar winning performance. Colliric (talk) 02:11, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

False false protagonists

Most of the examples of false protagonists given here are unsourced, as are a couple of paragraphs of key commentary above the lists. As original research isn't allowed, no entry should be based on the editor's own evaluation as to whether a character qualifies as a false protagonist. This should be determined by their description as such in reliable sources. I even disagree with a couple of the examples, in particular A Clockwork Orange. How did Alex become an antagonist? Who, then, is the protagonist that he's there to thwart? No, he remains the protagonist, the character who is present throughout the film and around whom the entire story revolves. That, until the end (or nearly to the end), he was evil is beside the point.

I've just tagged the article over these concerns. Largoplazo (talk) 17:20, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

The Cube, 1997

Is Maurice Dean Wint, who plays police officer Quentin McNeal in the 1997 film a false protagonist, as it shows him as the de facto leader of the group of "prisoners" and sets him up as the hero of the film, but then he shows himself to be crazed into the film and is pretty much the "bad guy"? 88.105.145.21 (talk) 01:57, 26 March 2023 (UTC)