Talk:Edwin Helfant

Requested move 19 September 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. After two relists I'm not seeing consensus for anything. Those for the move argued that the article is presently predominantly about the murder. Those against argued that the individual had independent notability. This does not stop the development of a separate murder article. (closed by non-admin page mover) TarnishedPath^talk 07:43, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

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Edwin Helfant → Murder of Edwin Helfant – The notability of this article is centered around Helfant's murder, and as such, I believe it would be best to move the page in order to reflect that and if approved, the contents of the article restructured to support this framing. Raskuly (talk) 06:37, 19 September 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 07:02, 26 September 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 12:00, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

Support good idea with or without a redirect -- the search box will almost certainly pull up the article in response to the name alone. Oblivy (talk) 06:41, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

• On the fence. I think the article would have to be expanded as a biography if kept at its current title, or expanded in details regarding the murder investigation and prosecutions if moved to a title to that effect. BD2412 T 16:13, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. Notable for more than just his murder. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:25, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

  Take away the murder and you have a judge who was under indictment for corruption but never convicted. Or is there more to the story that's not being told in the article as it stands? We wouldn't include an indicted crime for a BLP, per WP:BLPCRIME

  In general I think we should be centering the crime rather than the criminal. This one is a close call. Oblivy (talk) 11:39, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

  I've an idea, let me write up a draft version of a restructured article from the "Murder of" perspective in one of my sandboxes. If that sounds like a good idea, I'll link to it here when it's done. Raskuly (talk) 05:49, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

  That seems like a good idea given the hesitance expressed here, and I'm happy to have a look when you think it's ready for main space. Oblivy (talk) 10:42, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

  I found a book, Gerald Tomlinson Murdered in Jersey, which covers this case. BD2412 T 13:36, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

  Thank you! Raskuly (talk) 16:27, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

  Note, I'm still working on it, it looks like it will be larger than the original article. Raskuly (talk) 03:26, 27 September 2025 (UTC)

  User:Oblivy and User:BD2412: I finished the draft of the article written from the "Murder of" perspective. It can be found at User:Raskuly/sandbox/3. A lot of the credit obviously goes to BD2412 who essentially rewrote the article as it stands. Credit also would need to go to the Nicodemo Scarfo article contributors. This is just a draft, and if I made any egregious mistakes I'm sorry. Raskuly (talk) 05:01, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

  The article looks really good. I took the liberty of making a few edits, to try to improve readability. The only substantive change (if it's that) was to move the sentence about Feldman up to the prior section as the reast of the "aftermath" section deals just with the Helfant murder and doesn't mention repercussions for the Feldman murder

  I have a few questions:

• Was Helfant a co-owner of the Flamingo hotel? Who was the other co-owner?
• Virgillo tried several times to kill Scarfo but failed -- is this multiple occasions, and failed on each occasion? Suggest that might be a better phrasing.
• do we know who the judge was who sentenced Virgillo? Just curious -- might help reduce some of the passive voice

Feel free to disregard/revert my edits - I just saw a few places where my red-pencil might be appreciated and if not, no sweat. Oblivy (talk) 13:13, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

Of course feel free to edit it, I should've made that clear that was encouraged.

• Yes, Helfant co-owned the Flamingo Hotel and he did so alongside Leon Stricks. Herman Orman was the previous owner.
• It is my understanding Virgilio tried on multiple occasions to kill Feldman, not Scarfo, and how he failed each time I'm unsure.
• It might be in the sources somewhere, but I didn't put much effort into expanding the Aftermath section admittedly.

Raskuly (talk) 13:30, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

I added a bit of text and cite to a contemporaneous NYT article that says the judge's name was withheld as he was not known to be aware of the bribe. Oblivy (talk) 00:49, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

• I don't see any particular reason to exclude professional biographical information in the current article (e.g., Helfant earning the nickname "the Fining Squire") as background in the new article. BD2412 T 23:44, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

  I omitted the nickname because it was not directly relevant to his murder if written from the crime perspective, rather than the bibliographic perspective. I don't believe I removed any other info regarding Helfant's professional background, but I could be mistaken. I wouldn't oppose it being re-added. Raskuly (talk) 01:58, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject United States courts and judges and WikiProject Biography/Politics and government have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 12:01, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

Yeah I agree if the entire article is based around his murder (which it appears to be) I think a change of title is warranted. Agnieszka653 (talk) 20:56, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

• On the fence, leaning against: His judgeship and being a lawyer and his likely mob involvement made him somewhat notable before he was killed, so his murder is not his sole source of notability. He was also and co-owner of the Flamingo Hotel and secret co-owner of several bars. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:44, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

  Oh that's super interesting! Are those sources already in on the page? If not would love to read and do some research. Agnieszka653 (talk) 22:48, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

  Actually sorry just browsed the page again--yeah I see what you are talking about--yeah the mob connections do seem significant. Maybe if his past was flushed out a bit more. Agnieszka653 (talk) 22:51, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.