Talk:Edward D. Jones

Requested move 10 December 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) -- Calidum 05:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

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• Edward D. Jones → Edward D. Jones, Sr.Edward D. Jones, Sr.
• Edward D. "Ted" Jones → Edward D. Jones, Jr.

– The title Edward D. Jones is ambiguous, and the title Edward D. "Ted" Jones is contrary to the WP:NICKNAME guidance to "avoid (for example) adding a nickname, or a contracted version of the original first name(s) in quotes between first and last name. For example: Bill Clinton, not William "Bill" Clinton." In this case, "Ted" is a common short name for "Edward" (just as "Bill" is commonly short for "William"), so having the nickname in quotes seems like the sort of title we try to avoid. Distinguishing them by "Sr." and "Jr." would also help clarify their precise relationship to each other. Alternatively, these could be disambiguated by birth year, or the junior Jones could be moved to Ted Jones (businessman)Ted Jones (businessman) or Ted Jones (investment banker). Note that Edward D. Jones is also ambiguous with Edward Davis JonesEdward Davis Jones – the Jones in Dow Jones. --Relisted. Dekimasuよ! 22:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC) —BarrelProof (talk) 21:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• The father, founder of the firm, is primary topic for the name. Bill Clinton is PT as well, so that example is not relevant. Do you have sources supporting common usage of "Junior", rather than "Ted", to reference the son? Or that the son preferred to be called "Junior"? Park named after the son. Wbm1058 (talk) 03:22, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose – first, because nom has not shown data to show that they are commonly distinguished by Jr. and Sr. Second, because if we do use use Jr. and Sr., our style is to not include a comma before those. Dicklyon (talk) 07:28, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I would certainly be happy to drop the commas, as well as to modify the destination names in other ways. (I was unaware that the commas were discouraged, which I believe was a rather recent change of guidance.) My motivation here is to avoid the WP:NICKNAME issue. I will try to do some homework regarding the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC question (if the RM is not closed too soon to allow for that). —BarrelProof (talk) 17:36, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Here are 90-day page view counts:
    • Edward D. Jones: 1817
    • Edward D. "Ted" Jones: 914
    • Edward Davis Jones: 187 (surprisingly low, IMO)
    • My personal interpretation is that the Senior Jones is more popular, but not necessarily sufficiently so to ascribe WP:PRIMARYTOPIC status, as that usually requires much more than 2:1 dominance in terms of page views. Also, the fact that he is currently given primary status on Wikipedia may somewhat inflate the counts for that article. People looking for the other fellows may be landing on the wrong page (which doesn't even have a hatnote to tell them what's happening). Also, although Edward Davis Jones doesn't get that many page views, he has obvious long-term historical importance that exceeds what is evident by that number. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Moreover, this neglects people looking for the company formerly named Edward D. Jones & Co., L.P. and now renamed as Edward Jones Investments (12457 views in the last 90 days), as noted in the hatnote at Edward D. Jones but neglected from inclusion at Edward Jones dab page (until a minute ago). Web searches for "Edward D. Jones" lead more to the company than to any of these men. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:18, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Edward D. Jones, Jr. This has been sitting for over a month, and nobody else has yet supported this besides the nominator. This proposal stems from the recent move of Ed "Too Tall" Jones, which again shows that "nicknames" may be valid disambiguators. Wbm1058 (talk) 20:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC) Undecided about primary topic for Edward D. Jones. I just expanded the hatnotes on that page. Wbm1058 (talk) 21:26, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Note: I'm not necessarily saying that the names I suggested are the best available possibilities. However, it does seem clear that the current names of these articles are contrary to Wikipedia guidance – the first in regard to ambiguity between a company and three people without a clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and the second in regard to WP:NICKNAME. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:11, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Regarding your "Bill Clinton" argument, look at Bill Harrison (William Harrison). We allow disambiguation by middle name (William Henry Harrison). William Jefferson Clinton is unnecessary disambiguation, per WP:CONCISE. If the president were not primary topic over William Henry Harrison (cricketer) we would make William Henry Harrison a dab and use William Henry Harrison (US president) for the president. Just because we do not normally use parenthetical disambiguators when they are unnecessary per WP:CONCISE, we don't use unnecessary nicknames for people not most commonly known by their nickname either. I don't think there's any rule prohibiting use of a nickname for disambiguation when disambiguation is necessary, or using a formal name for disambiguation when the nickname is the common name: Ted Jones. Actually, this may be a case like Ed "Too Tall" Jones where the formal–nickname combo is the defacto WP:Common name, which makes it the best choice for disambiguation. In other words, "Ed Jones" is literally such a common name that the need for disambiguation is commonly recognized, and thus rather than look exclusively to our style guides for guidance, we simply need to look to common usage for guidance, because common usage has made the disambiguation for us. If someone were commonly known as William Hank Harrison, we wouldn't overrule common usage by changing the nickname Hank to the formal name Henry. Wbm1058 (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
    • @Dicklyon: WP:QUALIFIER is mixed regarding commas for Juniors and Seniors: Martin Luther King, Jr., but John F. Kennedy Jr. How is whether or not to use a comma decided? Common usage? Note that, for MLK, the ", Jr" is unnecessary disambiguation, but we include it anyway. Just another example that we have exceptions for many of our guidelines. Wbm1058 (talk) 21:17, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.