Talk:Dutch courage

Removed patent WP:BOLLOCKS

I've removed the following piece of unsourced (and untrue) original research. Please do not re-add it unless you can find a reliable source (which you won't) as it's patently untrue; not only were Britain and the Netherlands at war at the time of the Plague, but the earliest recorded use of the phrase was in 1826. And needless to say, the Dutch do not have "the freedom of the river". — iridescent 20:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

During the bubonic plague of London (1665), the city was sealed off to avoid contamination. This meant no food was permitted in. The only people willing to trade with London were the Dutch, who left food on jetties and then would take the money left there. They used to steel their nerves with liquor before landing on the plague-infested shores, hence "Dutch courage." To this day, the Dutch still have the freedom of the river Thames, which was granted as a reward for their courage and kindness.

Another possible etymology of the phrase comes from the origin of Gin. Gin (originally called jenever) was created by the Dutch, from whom it spread to England through returning soldiers. The popularity of gin became a social scourge, eventually leading to the Gin Act of 1751 and the pejorative use of the term.

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Would have been very stupid of any Dutch ship to sail anywhere near England let alone into London, for many years before or after, seeing as England and Holland were constantly at War at this time.

Gazza — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.109.13 (talk) 18:10, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Error in dates?

Dutch gin created in 1650 then used in The Thirty Years War (1618 - 1648)? Dstone1163 (talk) 13:48, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Another hypothesis for its origin

Is this site credible? It says, The Anglo-Dutch wars of the 17th and 18th centuries were acrimonious even by the usual standards of war. Following the conflicts the English came to hold the Dutch in very low regard and as a consequence there are numerous English phrases which portray them in an unflattering light, and goes on to describe the phrase as meaning that courage gained by intoxication isn't genuine. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 05:27, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 19 February 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus after extended discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 11:43, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

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Dutch courage → Liquid courageLiquid courage – "Liquid courage" is the more familiar term for this phenomenon, in my experience, as well as being more neutral. Only a tiny portion of the article has to do with the etymology and history of the phrase "Dutch courage" specifically, so I don't believe this move would require any changes to the article scope or content. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:24, 19 February 2026 (UTC) — Relisting.  veko. (user | talk | contribs) [he/him] 18:49, 26 February 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 00:38, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

Oppose. I believe this is a British vs American distinction. Wikipedia is agnostic on which is "more familiar" or "more neutral". Unless there's a strong case to regionalize the topic, MOS:RETAIN. Slovborg (talk) 20:23, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose per above, LawExpress uses "Dutch courage" and I've never heard "liquid courage". Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:11, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

Support, I've never heard of it being called "Dutch courage", and use of that title feels like it's promoting negative stereotypes. Qualiesin (talk) 14:42, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

• oppose per wp:retain—blindlynx 20:02, 26 February 2026 (UTC)
• Support - Liquid courage is more international. Guz13 (talk) 00:59, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
• Oppose. Clear common name in my experience. Never heard of "liquid courage". -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:50, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
• Support: personally, I've never heard of Dutch courage in my life, however my support is not based on that. I trust everyone that's saying it's an engvar thing. If that were the only thing to consider, I would agree on the basis of WP:TITLEVAR. Ngrams shows that "liquid courage" has overtaken "Dutch courage" in usage. Also, WP:NPOVTITLE says Notable circumstances under which Wikipedia often avoids a common name for lacking neutrality include... Colloquialisms where far more encyclopedic alternatives are obvious. I believe "liquid courage" is an appropriate encyclopedic alternative to avoid some of the NPOV issues people have brought up. On Pubmed, I get 25 hits for "liquid courage" and 5 hits for "Dutch courage". And 4 of those 5 hits might not even be about alcohol.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 01:44, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
• Support as NPOVTITLE overrules even WP:ENGVAR--which I agree would normally control here. Please, let's not use "I've never heard" or "is more international"--instead, let's take the opportunity to avoid a dodgy stereotype. Red Slash 18:07, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

  I don't really think NPOVTITLE applies here as while the term does include a reference to nationality it doesn't really have a POV apart from courage being used to commit a crime. I think NPOVTITLE is used to avoid terms like "scandal" in favour of more neutral terms like "controversy" so I don't think a criminal defence which includes a nationality qualifies as a NPOVTITLE. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:20, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

  "I've never heard" is a valid reason to oppose as that is saying that the term "liquid courage" isn't used in British English which is a valid reason per ENGVAR, in contrast with Solitaire that "solitaire" is used in British English meaning COMMONALITY applies there but not here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:35, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

  I am trying to say that "I've never heard" vs "I've only heard" is fighting this battle on the wrong axis. I get what you're saying regarding clarifying that COMMONALITY isn't a factor here, though. In my opinion, WP:RETAIN is crystal clearly the controlling policy here... EXCEPT for NPOVTITLE, which beats it. If it weren't for NPOVTITLE, there's no case at all for a move. Therefore, the majority of !votes above mine are missing the main issue (though you can grant that the oppose votes are implying that they think the term is already NPOV) Red Slash 15:24, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

• Support (@Crouch, Swale): The current title dates from a time of war in which the Dutch were the enemy, and implies an association between Dutch people and alcohol intoxication and/or a lack of sufficient genuinely heroic courage. See Going Dutch#Etymology ("The Oxford English Dictionary connects 'go Dutch' / 'Dutch treat' to other phrases which have 'an opprobrious or derisive application, largely due to the rivalry and enmity between the English and Dutch in the 17th century', the period of the Anglo-Dutch Wars. Another example is 'Dutch courage'.", boldface added) and Double Dutch (jump rope) ("in English slang, where it originally referred to incomprehensible speech or nonsense, reflecting historical English views of the Dutch language as confusing or strange. Phrases such as 'in Dutch', meaning to be in trouble, further illustrate this pejorative connotation.", boldface added) and Dutch oven (practical joke), associating the Dutch with crude behaviour. A cited source has "'Dutch courage' derives from the English derision of the Dutch which came about during the Anglo-Dutch wars. Indeed, if there is one race that has been singled out for linguistic brickbats from the English it is the Dutch. Much of our language was formed in the 17th/18th centuries, at the time that the Dutch were the principal adversaries of the British. We have a number of names which have had 'Dutch' added to them to form some manner of insult: – Dutch bargain – a contract made when one is drunk. – Dutch concert – where several tunes are played at the same time. – Dutch feast – where the host gets drunk before the guests. – Dutch treat – a 'treat' at which one has to pay one's own share. – Double Dutch – nonsense. 'Dutch courage' is another example of these slurs; it just means 'confidence gained by drinking alcohol', i.e. not actual courage at all." Another cited source has "the disparaging idea that Johnny Foreigner, whether sailing up the Medway or facing down the locals in the East Indies, needed a few drinks before a fight". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:17, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

  @BarrelProof: The article is about courage gained from intoxication with alcohol and not about Dutch people and their language. If the article was about a controversy around the Dutch such as a case where oil was split into the sea it would be more neutral to use the term "Dutch oil controversy" instead of "Dutch oil scandal" but we probably wouldn't change "Dutch" to some other term like "2020 oil controversy" etc. While I understand "Liquid courage" may appear to be more recognizable the fact that the term "Dutch courage" is used in British criminal law books does suggest this is a case of RETAIN. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:40, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

  I question whether it is possible to read all the quotes that I provided and still think the expression has no basis on a negative stereotyping of Dutch people. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:40, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose. No valid case has been made for a move, most of the above is just editors reporting that they have personally rarely or even never encountered the term. That may even be commendable (it is after all a racial slur), but it's not a valid argument for a move. Valid arguments are based on WP:AT and its supporting naming conventions. To justify this move, it seems to me that what needs to be established is that the existing term is relatively rarely used compared to the proposed name by the English speaking population, rather than just by a small group of Wikipedia editors. Andrewa (talk) 06:15, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

WP:POVTITLE is part of WP:AT. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 06:32, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

Notable circumstances under which Wikipedia often avoids a common name for lacking neutrality include... Colloquialisms where far more encyclopedic alternatives are obvious. A quote from WP:AT which I included in my argument above.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 06:50, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

Except that I don't think there is a neutrality issue here since as noted the article is about intoxication with alcohol rather than the Dutch language and people, WP:RETAIN says Only very exceptionally (such as when a topic has strong national ties, or the change reduces ambiguity) is there a valid reason for changing from one acceptable option to another. I've cited a criminal law book which uses the term and the UK does commonly say things aren't PC and should be changed but I'm not aware this has happened with "Dutch courage". Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:35, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

All you said was LawExpress uses it but did not provide any other context. Here are some quotes from academic journals explaining why "Dutch courage" can be seen as problematic:

Academic articles explaining that "Dutch courage" is a problematic phrase

Nationality antagonisms and folk ideas about alien groups have supplied American-English with many opprobrious names for foreigners... A number of compounds indicate that the Dutch hold a fondness for alcoholic beverages and carousing. This is a whole article about negative phrases about the Dutch from 1952. Hondius, K. N. (1952). The American Folk Idea of the Dutch. Western Folklore, 11(1), 29–31.

There was not only a war at sea, there were also battles of words. The Oxford English Dictionary gives a number of expressions in which Dutch is used mockingly or insultingly, some of them not found before the seventeenth century, for even after peace was officially concluded, the past kept being remembered. These expressions stress the Dutch love of alcohol (cf. Dutch courage and the wine flowing at Dutch bargains), Dutch immorality (Dutch widow for a prostitute), and the gibberish they produce (double Dutch) or the stopgaps they use (“thank God it’s no worse” is a typical form of Dutch comfort or Dutch consolation). At a Dutch auction, the opening bid is higher than the real value; the price is gradually lowered until a bid is made. Dutch foil, finally, is cheap imitation gold leaf. This, then, is how the British thought about the Dutch. van der Sijs, N. (2009). The Dutch language in North America. In Cookies, Coleslaw, and Stoops: The Influence of Dutch on the North American Languages (p. 56). Amsterdam University Press.

It was only a few weeks after I arrived in Amsterdam and was taking an intensive Dutch course that I was told by one of my Dutch teachers that 'the Dutch are the European Chinese'... My impression was formed mostly by English idioms which are not very flattering... 'Dutch courage': the courage that comes from being drunk... Of course one should not rely on idioms when seeking to get to know a country and its people. But they nevertheless influence one's perception strongly if one has not had contact with the people themselves. My idea of the Dutch was that they are a difficult people to get on with, they are unreliable, they are addicted to drink, etc. This is from a Dutch anthropology journal. Minghuan, L. (1990). Dezelfde hè? “The Dutch are the European Chinese” — Reflections. Etnofoor, 3(2), 99–114.

In 1870, the Deutsch-Amerikanische Conversations-Lexikon emphasizes an additional connotation of the word 'Dutch': German Americans considered the term 'Dutch' an insult. Its common usage merely revealed the writer's lack of knowledge regarding European culture and languages. Numerous word combinations involving 'Dutch' conveyed negative descriptions of behavior or ridiculed certain habits among German-speaking people in the United States... 'Dutch courage' was the drunk's courage. Mehring, F. (2006). Deutsch, Dutch, Double Dutch: Authentic and Artificial German-American Dialects. Amerikastudien / American Studies, 51(1), 93–113.

From such expressions as French leave and the French disease, Dutch courage and Dutch treat, his fine Italian hand in treachery or deceit, and so on, we learn soliciting of the prejudices of our ancestors enshrined in the common vocabulary of the English language. Ashley, Leonard R. N. (1973). Lesser Breeds Without the Law.

Dutch courage. "Courage due to intoxicants." Webster's, 2d ed. Sometimes times the intoxicant itself, particularly gin. Porter, K. (1966). Still More Ethnic and Place Names as Derisive Adjectives. Western Folklore, 25(1), 37–40.

The term "Dutch structuralism" is perhaps unfortunate. In English one finds the expressions "Dutch treat" (which isn't really a treat at all), "Dutch courage" (which at best may be viewed as synthetic courage), and "Dutch uncle" (which is a negation of the normal English associations of "uncleness"). Thus at an unconscious level the term "Dutch structuralism" may imply a structuralism that isn 't really structuralism, an artificial structuralism, or indeed the negation of structuralism, and more important, by implication, that "real" structuralism is French structuralism. MOYER, D. S. (1982). MYTH AND LAW. In P. E. DE JOSSELIN DE JONG & E. SCHWIMMER (Eds.), Symbolic Anthropology in the Netherlands (Vol. 95, pp. 12–29). Brill.

None of the Dutch entries, such as Dutch courage, are awarded deltas, even though-as in the case of Dutch courage-the pejorative nature of the word is acknowledged in a note. Spears, R. A. (1990). Biggest and Best Review of New Dictionary of American Slang, by R. L. Chapman. American Speech, 65(2), 166–173.

While on the subject of the mild English stereotype it will be useful now to consider the Dutch... Judging from the ethnic slurs, most of which are not current, the Dutch are irascible and lawless, suicidal, extremely parsimonious, inept at business, and prone to alcoholism. Ethnic slurs which preserve this view include... "Dutch courage," bravery which is alcoholically induced. Eisiminger, S. (1980). Ethnic and National Stereotypes and Slurs. American Humor, 7(2), 9–13.

Gardner and Shawcross repeat their definitions, but in Donne's time the English characterized the Dutch as heavy drinkers (we still have the phrase "Dutch courage") Hunter, W. B. (1983). Difficulties in the Interpretation of John Donne’s “Satyre 1.” The South Central Bulletin, 43(4), 109–111.

Again, how could the impression have ever originated which caused us to sneer at " Dutch courage," and use the terms to indicate something approaching cowardice. Whatever else we may lay to the charge of the Dutch, it seems absurd to sneer at the courage of the people who withstood the all-conquering Roman Legions; Bayly, J. C. (1896). National Prejudices. International Journal of Ethics, 6(2), 221–231.

Many sources that say Dutch courage is a negative stereotype.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 21:45, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

Because the article isn't about stereotypes it's about intoxication with alcohol. Yes I realize it is seen as problematic by some but I don't think NPOV is much of an issue when the topic is unrelated (apart from the name) to the controversial thing. I actually heard someone I know use the term "Dutch courage" a few hours ago and after mentioning about the legal use I mentioned the term is controversial. The case that LawExpress is referring to is A-G for N. Ireland v. Gallagher. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:15, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

I don't understand when you say it's unrelated. The intoxication with alcohol is the stereotype. That's the whole point. The article about courage gained from alcohol is currently at "Dutch courage". Every single quote provided in that table recognizes that "Dutch courage" is defined as courage gained from alcohol and then further explains why it's problematic. And these aren't quotes from terminally online people looking to get offended by anything. These are found in academic writings and most are from the 20th century and even one from 1896.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 00:09, 14 March 2026 (UTC)

The term is used today in an unrelated manor to the Dutch language etc. People use the term to mean when people get drunk to do something they otherwise wouldn't have the courage to do or to commit a specific intent crime such as murder and argue that they didn't have the intention at the time of the killing. I doubt many people even know that the term may be considered a negative stereotype. I looked it up a number of years and all I could remember was that it refers to soldiers who are given alcohol so that they aren't as sensitive to the cold and fear of war, I couldn't remember anything about a negative stereotype. If you asked someone what it means people might guess it is saying the Dutch don't have much courage so they need to be drunk to do things and it might have a negative stereotype or people might guess that it has a positive stereotype in that people get drunk to give them as much courage as the Dutch have and thus a positive stereotype. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:16, 14 March 2026 (UTC)

I don't think it makes a big difference whether most people are aware that the term is derived from a negative stereotype or not. The fact that it is derived from a negative stereotype and the fact that a significant number of people are aware of that are enough. To me it also seems pretty easy to guess that if a term associates the influence of alcohol with a particular ethnicity or national origin, there is a significant likelihood that the term might involve a negative stereotype. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:19, 14 March 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:RETAIN based on the British Google Ngrams. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:16, 13 March 2026 (UTC)
• Support per WP:POVTITLE, Red Slash, Bait30, BarrelProof. Agree that "I've only heard of this term" arguments are weak per WP:TITLEVAR. Would also support a non-colloquial title (e.g., "Effects of alcohol on behavio(u)r") Wracking ^talk! 23:21, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.