Talk:Drow

missing article about drow from 1984

Imagine (adventure games magazine), August 1984, No. 17

A friend of mine who is still kicking, named Dave R. Knowles, made this article (starting on page 6), titled "The Drow, an examination of dark elves". From what I gather, the race was created by Gary Gygax, and other than their original printing, Dave's article detailed the missing parts of drow info, or expanded on things.

I have a pdf file of the magazine in question. I found it on scribd and other places.

I don't know how official Imagine is as a magazine for D&D, but if this counts as part of drow history or creation, then the wiki is off a bit. Mainly because the article is missing completely.

If it is not official, I'm unsure if it is to be mentioned at all, which could be why it's not.

Any help in fixing this is appreciated. I don't know what I'm doing. I could even refer you to Dave himself if needed. He won't know the wiki editing side of things, but will know more of the origins or purpose it was created, I'd think. I'm going to ask him how official he was told it is.

But again, help to resolve or answer this is appreciated. Erikwfg (talk) 03:49, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Imagine was published by TSR, @Erikwfg. I see a copy of the article you mention: . If you ever return, feel free to discuss! BOZ (talk) 15:44, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 20 November 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 00:39, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

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Drow → Drow (Dungeons & Dragons)Drow (Dungeons & Dragons) – Drow a regional variation of Trow (folklore) (from which DnD borrows the term) and by extension an archaism of Draugr in the English language. Drow should be a disambiguation page. ᛒᛚᚮᚴᚴᚼᛆᛁ ᛭ 𝔅𝔩𝔬𝔠𝔨𝔥𝔞𝔧 17:23, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose A quick search shows the D&D term is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (ex: Google trends, WikiNav Drow, WikiNav Trow (folklore), Pageviews Analysis, etc). Per WP:ONEOTHER, we don't need a disambiguation page: If there are only two topics to which a given title might refer, and one is the primary topic, then a disambiguation page is not needed—it is sufficient to use a hatnote on the primary topic article, pointing to the other article. (This means that readers looking for the second topic are spared the extra navigational step of going through the disambiguation page.) There are already hatnotes at each article. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:42, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

  There are 3: DnD, Orkney/Shetland folklore, Norse folklore. ᛒᛚᚮᚴᚴᚼᛆᛁ ᛭ 𝔅𝔩𝔬𝔠𝔨𝔥𝔞𝔧 17:59, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

  I'm not seeing enough at Draugr#Descendants that would indicate it needs a link from a disambiguation page or that the small mention there means WP:ONEOTHER is no longer valid. At the time of posting this comment, it doesn't even link to Trow (folklore). An editor in #Requested move 17 March 2018 said (after looking at various search results): "Perhaps valid results would be found in a different language than English, but no one using the English language Wikipedia is likely to search for them". My own search indicates the D&D term is still the primary topic for "Drow". Per WP:DABNAME, "if there is a primary topic, then the tag "(disambiguation)" is added to the name of the disambiguation page" - I don't think we need Drow (disambiguation) but that's the format if you want a disambiguation page. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:35, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

• Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Role-playing games. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:56, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose clear primary topic. Drow for the Trow is relatively obscure and very rarely used. Canterbury Tail talk 18:01, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with others that we have the primary topic here. I also note this article has a nice discussion of the origins. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 20:08, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per the results of Talk:Drow#Requested move 17 March 2018. BOZ (talk) 23:43, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

  The aforementioned discussion brings up some of the issues at hand. If it wasn't obvious, there is ethical reasons to disambiguate, since allowing DnD to be the primary topic for "drow" is cultural appropriation. ᛒᛚᚮᚴᚴᚼᛆᛁ ᛭ 𝔅𝔩𝔬𝔠𝔨𝔥𝔞𝔧 05:01, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

  Cultural appropriation of a fictional race? I'm not seeing the ethical quandary here. Jclemens (talk) 06:20, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

  Folklore is culture. ᛒᛚᚮᚴᚴᚼᛆᛁ ᛭ 𝔅𝔩𝔬𝔠𝔨𝔥𝔞𝔧 15:21, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose simply because there's nothing else to put here at Drow, let alone something clearly better. Any issues can be handled in hatnotes or article text. Jclemens (talk) 06:20, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

  So if we created an article on folklorean drow, would that change ur opinion? ᛒᛚᚮᚴᚴᚼᛆᛁ ᛭ 𝔅𝔩𝔬𝔠𝔨𝔥𝔞𝔧 15:27, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

  Do you have the sources to do that? BOZ (talk) 15:38, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

  And wouldn't the title of folklorean drow still be Trow (folklore), like it is now, because that is the most common spelling of the name? And based on that, wouldn't the D&D version then still be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Drow", and the folkloric version the primary topic for "Trow", and both articles just reference each other? Like we have two separate articles for Santa Claus and Saint Nicolas, with the former being a modern culturally deformed version of the latter, but everyone can easily recognize who is who? Daranios (talk) 16:11, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

• So, this is not intended to be an appeal to authority, but the background information is relevant: I'm a Scot and I am familiar with the isles and how they speak. One of my hobbies is etymology, so I am well aware of the history of the words 'troll', 'trow', 'drow' and 'draug(r)', another hobby is folklore, and I also have been an RPG player / gamemaster for several decades. The cultural aspect ought not to be carelessly dismissed, but I fail to see a convincing argument that this is 'cultural appropriation'. The fictional 'Drow' share only a few characteristics with the drow (trow) of insular folklore: undergound dwelling (usually mounds in the actual folklore), preference for nighttime (not the dark, literally night, but close enough) and a tendency to be inimical to humanity and lure them into their realms. It's fairly obvious that some form of this folkore was a starting point for the TSR version of "The Drow", but that's about as far as it goes. In terms of the words themselves, let's put draug(r) out of the way first - it's a red herring; depite similar sounds, the 'draugr', 'draug' or even 'drau' are depicted as 'revenants', that is people who either didn't die when they should have or (strictly this is more correctly in line with the meaning of revenant) died and returned to some form of life. This is a separate tradition, on the whole, from the troll/trow/drow stories, though some aspects are related, including association with mounds and barrows, often assumed to be warrior graves (most are not), and the etymology is a very obvious and standard pattern of mutation troll -> trow (-> drow). Trolls have varying depictions across the nations where they are part of the folklore, but they can either be large, even giant, or smaller than men (even smaller than a child) depending on story and sometimes depending on their own whim, and on the mainland these would be the same beings as fey, fairies, sidh, etc. Trow is a Scots form of 'troll' (that is, it is cognate with 'troll' in the various languages that use that spelling), and it is from this we get 'drow', as follows: One of the most notable and noticeable features of insular Scots, particularly Orcadian (Orkney Isles) is the voicing of dentals, and shifting of fricatives to alveolars - in plainer language, they say "da" not "the" and tend make words which start with /t/ & /p/ sound as if they start with /d/ & /b/ - so trow became drow.

In conclusion then, I think a redirection to the page on trow (with acknowledgement of 'drow' and its origin) suffices, as long as this page maintains proper tone for this being a fictional depiction of genuine folkloric origin. I would Oppose a change in name for this page, as it seems to me that 'drow' without being attached to trow is insufficiently notable, except as popularized by TSR and later owners of the D&D products and trademarks. ~2025-35534-09 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 10:23, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.