Talk:Desi

People in Afghanistan are not desi

There is a plethora of sources that exclude people in Afghanistan from being labelled as desi as they are an eastern Iranian/Turkic country, not a Hindustani Indo-Aryan/Dravidian country.

Please use the talk page to reach a consensus with reputable sources before adding them again 2600:1700:158F:A900:8CDD:EFC2:C0F8:7284 (talk) 00:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

You will not remove sourced information per WP:BRD. You have been reverted by both User:ThatBritishAsianDude and I. There are references, such as Cultural Diversity in Neuropsychological Assessment (authored by Farzin Irani and published by Routledge, an academic press) that include Afghanistan; besides in the list, it is preceded by the clause "may also sometimes include". I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 00:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree Afghanistan has nothing to do in this page. Afghans themselves are the first to reject being déso why some random référence made by an Indian (how surprising) should put afghans as desis. That's pure cap and that's patter we saw with Hindutvas trying to claim Afghanistan for whatever reason when Afghanistan is culturally fully Iranic and Turkic and religiously islamic. 37.65.8.127 (talk) 21:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Exactly Afghanistan was never ever considered as South Asian prior to joining SAARC back in 2007, it was always labelled as Central Asia and sometimes Middle Eastern depending on the countries census and context but even then labelling it as Central Asia or West Asia has more merit then calling itself. Even the dardic groups in Afghanistan today don't view themselves as Desi. The only people who do label them as 'desi' are just desi people themselves due to their strange obsession or people from the other side of the world who never stepped foot in it at all. We aim to remove Afghanistan from the desi wikipedia, south asian heritage month (british celebration) wikipedia and the south asian label as a whole. The obsession of Afghans being labelled as desi is so bad that now even newer articles start to include them as part of 'desi', why? Just because they are part of SAARC? And Afghanistan is not "sometimes" included it is actually never ever included. The obsession has gone way out of hand Onlyway887 (talk) 01:27, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

We have citations that support the existing content. We're not going to set them aside based on your opinion of the matter. On Wikipedia we follow the citations, see WP:V and WP:NOR. MrOllie (talk) 02:43, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

okay Onlyway887 (talk) 08:26, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Inclusion of Afghanistan in the definition of 'Desi'

Hi. I'm a new editor and before making any changes, I wanted to ask a sourcing and due weight question.

The lead, citing Irani (2022) and an APIDA reference, currently states that “Desi” may sometimes be extended to include Afghanistan. My concern is that the sources in question fail to directly analyze “Desi” as an ethnolinguistic or cultural identity. Irani (2022) is a clinical neuropsychology text, and the reference to “Desi” appears to be incidental rather than a focused definition, while APIDA appears to be an administrative grouping rather than a source on cultural self-identification.

Since “Desi” is generally understood as a self-ascribed ethno-cultural term, I'm not sure whether these sources meet due weight requirements for definitional inclusion of Afghanistan. Would stronger, field-relevant sources (e.g: linguistics or anthropology) be available to support this, or would it be appropriate to narrow or remove Afghanistan from the list?

~~~~ AfghanWolf (talk) 15:49, 1 February 2026 (UTC)

User:Orientls Why were my edits reverted? AfghanWolf (talk) 17:18, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

You are yet to describe how the source is unreliable. Orientls (talk) 20:16, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

I see. Just to clarify, I'm not arguing about the reliability of the Routledge source; it seems to be a reliable academic publication. I'm, however, concerned about due weight and context in the lead. WP:RS stipulates clearly that reliability depends on context, and that "Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source or information that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable". The Routledge source in question is a "neuropsychological assessment" text; not a source focused on cultural or linguistic terminology, and the definition of "Desi" seems incidental.

Similarly, the APIDA page states that in their "references", certain countries are included under the label of "Desi". This seems like an organisational usage; not an independent authoritative secondary definition of the term. WP:RS states clearly that reliability may depend on authors who are demonstrably authoritative in relation to the subject. The APIDA page fails to provide subject matter authorship or an editorial process related to South Asian cultural terminology. It also seems like the page uses regional categories inconsistently, as it also describes Afghans as Central Asians elsewhere.

By contrast, major dictionaries like Cambridge Dictionary and Merriam-Webster define "Desi" as referring primarily to the people/diaspora of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, with the latter extending it to Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, and the Maldives.

I'm happy to discuss this further if you want. I'm also open to compromise on how the lead presents the term to reflect the sources accurately. AfghanWolf (talk) 17:21, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

Repeated reversions and removals of Afghanistan from article

@Lapisnoir Is there any reason why you are repeatedly removing mentions of Afghanistan as being sometimes included in the term Desi? You have repeatedly reverted my reverts of your edits or manually removed the mention of Afghanistan from the article. You claimed in your edit summary that the sources do not support this, but all of the attached citations have mentioned Afghanistan as being often included in the definition of desi. RealKnockout (talk) 18:46, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

I’m removing Afghanistan from those mentions because copy-pasting from Western academic sources doesn't override actual ethno-linguistic reality. You can keep stacking citations from Routledge or some California university DEI page, but they are functionally useless here.

Here is why your "sources" are not even tangentially true and why Afghans are not "broadly" Desi:

1. The Linguistic Barrier

The word Desi is derived from the Sanskrit desha (country/land), filtering through Indo-Aryan languages like Hindi, Urdu, and Punjabi. Afghans speak Pashto (Eastern Iranian) and Dari (Western Iranian). We are part of the Iranian plateau's linguistic sphere. Calling an Afghan "Desi" is like calling a Frenchman "Anglophone" just because they both happen to live in Europe. It makes zero sense to anyone who actually understands the region.

2. Geographical Illiteracy

Your sources are using a lazy, post-9/11 "South Asia" administrative definition (likely following SAARC boundaries) to group everyone together for convenience. Just because a textbook at Cal State wants to lump Afghanistan into an "APIDA" acronym for a census count doesn't mean the cultural identity magically shifts. Afghanistan has spent the vast majority of its history linked to Central Asia and the Persianate world, not the precolonial or postcolonial Indian subcontinent. Afghanistan is not even part of the Indian subcontinent.

3. Cultural Distinction

• The Music: Our scales, instruments (like the Rubab), and rhythms are distinct from the Hindustani classical tradition that defines Desi culture.

• The History: We were never part of the British Raj. The "Desi" identity is heavily forged by the shared colonial experience of the subcontinent—an experience Afghanistan famously fought to avoid.

Why your Citations Fail:

• Source [1] & [2]: These are clinical or administrative manuals. They use "Desi" as a catch-all for "anyone from that general direction" to simplify their data. It’s a label of convenience, not an ethnic fact.

• Source [3] AND [5]: Literally exclude Afghanistan in its own definition text ("precolonial Indian subcontinent"), yet you're trying to use it as a "gotcha."

Stop trying to force a Persian-speaking, Central Asian highland culture into a South Asian box just because you found a few PDFs that agree with your confusion. The reverts will continue until you find a source that isn't just a Westerner's generalization. It is misleading and simply not true that Afghanistan is part of anything South Asian, other than (sometimes) in strict geography. Lapisnoir (talk) 05:09, 28 February 2026 (UTC)

The cultural differences are not even entirely relevant. The references make the inclusion of Afghanistan in the article verifiable and it is our job to publish what the reliable and neutral sources state. Trying to justify a removal with tangential discussions of the cultural differences between Afghanistan and other countries crosses into improper synthesis by trying to draw a conclusion that Afghanistan is never included in the term Desi due to other cultural factors, instead of just looking at the relevant sources statements (which clearly say that the term applies in many cases). The removal is not really justifiable.

Just on a short aside from that, there are more Pashto speakers and Pashtuns (around twice as many) in Pakistan than Afghanistan, and there are various other Pakistani ethnic groups, like the Baloch (who form a significant minority in Afghanistan) and Brahui, that do not speak Indo-Aryan languages. It is logically inconsistent to consider Pakistanis and Pakistan to be part of the Desi sphere, but not the ethnic groups that have been part of it for nearly a century. Secondly, Afghanistan is, in fact, often included within definitions of the Indian subcontinent. Lastly, the claim that not being part of the British Raj excludes Afghanistan from the term Desi makes little sense, considering that Nepal, Bhutan, and Maldives (three countries listed as Desi by the sources) were also never part of the British Raj.

Lastly, looking at the sources themselves, we are not discussing whether Afghanistan is definitely Desi or not. The original sentence says that the term "may also sometimes be extended" to the listed countries. On that count, the original citations are definitely sufficient evidence, and I have yet to see a reference from you that can back up your claim that Afghanistan is never included in the term Desi. You yourself stated that for some purposes (like that of the references), Afghanistan is included in the term. RealKnockout (talk) 21:03, 28 February 2026 (UTC)

I agree with User:RealKnockout; information that is supported by references cannot be removed from this article. The text is clear in noting that Afghans may sometimes be considered Desi. User:Lapisnoir, you do not have consensus to remove it. Thanks for your understanding, Anupam^Talk 21:18, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

While the argument for inclusion based on 'verifiability' is noted, it conflates geographic proximity with ethno-linguistic identity. The term Desi is etymologically rooted in the Sanskrit Desha and refers specifically to the Indo-Aryan cultural sphere.

Your point regarding Pakistan actually reinforces the case for Afghanistan’s exclusion. While Pakistan is home to Iranic-speaking groups (Pashtuns and Balochs), its demographic, historical, and national core—centered on the Indus Valley—is Indo-Aryan (Punjabi, Sindhi, Muhajir). Afghanistan, by contrast, is a civilizational pillar of the Persianate and Central Asian world. Using the presence of Pashtuns in Pakistan as a 'bridge' to label all of Afghanistan as Desi is a category error; cultural identity is not transitive. By that logic, parts of Tajikistan or Iran could be argued into the definition because they share Dari/Persian heritage with Afghanistan.

Regarding the comparison to Nepal, Bhutan, and the Maldives: these nations have been integrated into the Indic cultural and religious orbit for over two millennia. Afghanistan has historically functioned as the 'Heart of Asia,' serving as the gateway to the Turkic and Persian worlds, distinct from the Subcontinental sphere.

Finally, while some sources 'sometimes extend' the term for administrative or broad regional convenience, this constitutes an Etic (external) label rather than an Emic (internal) reality. There is virtually no evidence of Afghans self-identifying as Desi. Including a fringe, extended definition in a general encyclopedia gives undue weight to a marginal use of the term. We should prioritize the core, established ethno-linguistic definition over secondary 'extensions' that dilute the term's specific meaning. Lapisnoir (talk) 22:51, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

I agree. It seems strange that some users are trying to shoehorn Afghanistan into the definition of 'desi', using obscure sources like "clinical neuropsychology" texts. AfghanWolf (talk) 22:16, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

The thing is one the sources literally contradicts itself. https://www.csusm.edu/apidafsa/who_is_apida/index.html#:~:text=The%20previous%20%E2%80%9CAsian%20and%20Pacific,%2C%20Pakistan%2C%20and%20Sri%20Lanka.

Mentions in this exact same article: Central Asians: Afghan, Armenian, Azerbaijani, Georgians, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Mongolian, Tajik, Turkmen, Uzbek

Not a single source even mentions Afghanistan as "Indian Subcontinent" they just made that up entirely for their agenda, the only 2 sources which do state is as desi is the website I sent which is obviously inaccurate & dubious alongside another source which is made by an Indian author hence the bias. Aside from these 2 sources, not a single other source claims it to be "desi". User-5698 (talk) 02:20, 29 May 2026 (UTC)

References

The sources listing Afghanistan as Desi is Dubious and Wrong

Before making any edits, I would like to highlight some important points.

First, there appear to be only two sources that classify Afghanistan as "Desi," and both present this classification with considerable uncertainty. Moreover, the reliability of these sources is questionable. One of them, the article "Who is APIDA?", directly undermines its own argument by later listing Afghans under the category of Central Asians alongside Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Mongolians, Tajiks, Turkmens, and Uzbeks. This inconsistency raises concerns about the credibility and coherence of the source's classification.

Second, the other source, written by Irani Farzin, was authored by an Indian writer. While this does not automatically invalidate the source, it is reasonable to consider whether cultural or ideological perspectives may have influenced the argument in favor of broadly applying the "Desi" label, rather than presenting a fully neutral assessment. Since this source was made by a desi author themselves, it would be very logical to assume they have a bias perspective rather then looking at it from a neutral point.

Beyond these two disputed sources, there appears to be no other evidence supporting the categorization of Afghanistan as "Desi." The strong negative response from many within the Afghan community itself further suggests that this label is not widely accepted and may be perceived as externally imposed rather than organically embraced. In fact, there are numerous sources and viewpoints that argue the opposite position and explicitly reject the classification of Afghanistan as "Desi." User-5698 (talk) 05:28, 18 June 2026 (UTC)