Talk:Cumann na mBan

Copyright violation

This article has been lifted almost in its entirity from a BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/easterrising/profiles/po13.shtml. I've attempted to rework it, but it is still in need of attention. --Damac 08:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry that was my fault, I added some notes that I had on my computer about the organisation, but they didn't come from the site above, I'am sure I got them from another Irish history site a couple of years ago. --Padraig3uk 07:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The photo included in this article was taken by Coleman Doyle, while a photographer wuth the Irish Press, not by anyone else as claimed. This is a blatent copyvio and it should be removed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.235.6.216 (talk • contribs) 20:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Areas of activity

During The Troubles, which part of Ireland were they mainly active? Was it just Belfast and Derry or did they have cells throughout the country? The article does not specify.jeanne (talk) 13:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Mixup

In the section Presidents there is an obvious mixup of presidencies/term of office, and lifespans, needs correction to one or the other — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.90.199 (talk) 16:29, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Role in the Rising

I am deleting the paragraphs about Constance Markievicz, Mary Hyland, Lily Kempson and Helena Molony in the "Role in 1916 Easter Rising" section. All these women served as Citizen Army soldiers in the Rising, not as Cumann na mBan auxiliaries. Charles Townshend in Easter 1916 wrongly says that the first three were with Cumann na mBan, citing Frank Robbins's Under the Starry Plough, but Robbins himself says (on p. 101) that they were Citizen Army. Scolaire (talk) 18:33, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

They were both. They were Cumann na mban members, which is what matters. Apollo The Logician (talk) 18:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC) Apollo The Logician (talk) 18:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

No, it's not what matters. They wore the uniform of the Citizen Army in the Rising. Women in the Citizen Army took part in combat. To say, on the strength of that, that Cumann na mBan members took part in combat, is misleading. Cumann na mBan members serving as such, and wearing the Cumann na mBan uniform, did not take part in combat; they were disbarred from it by the Cumann na mBan constitution. I also don't believe that Hyland or Kempson were CnaB members. Scolaire (talk) 19:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

It can be made clear that Cumann na mBan members fought in the rising but the organisation itself didnt officially take part.Apollo The Logician (talk) 19:43, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I have edited it accordingly. I also corrected a number of other inaccuracies introduced by Townshend and/or editors of this article. The raiding party didn't raid Trinity College and capture Trinity OTC rifles, they occupied the College of Surgeons and searched for College of Surgeons OTC rifles, without success. Christi McCallum says, not that Molony tended the wounded, but that she and other women fought as snipers. Scolaire (talk) 18:51, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Well done for identifying and deleting this. It seems to me that in the last decade or so, 4th Wave feminism has inveigled its way into the (re)writing of history. And that's possibly the case here, where they are trying to construct a misleading narrative that women didn't get their credit for the 1916 Rising. By all means, have your grievances feminists. But make sure they are real, and make sure you leave them outside the room when you are being objective historians. 137.43.106.63 (talk) 10:04, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

wow dont you just love mysogyny 89.100.64.28 (talk) 16:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

External links modified

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Elizabeth O'Farrell 'airbrushed'

This edit said that Elizabeth O'Farrell "can be seen in the original photographs of the surrender, and was later edited out." The ref is to a theatre review in The Journal. The reviewer is mistaken on a number of counts. Elizabeth O'Farrell wasn't airbrushed out, either literally or figuratively. In the single, amateur and very poor quality photograph of the surrender, only her feet were visible. These were airbrushed out for aesthetic reasons. Taking out a pair of boots is not taking out a person! And O'Farrell's mission to negotiate the surrender has always been part of the historical narrative. It is in Dorothy Macardle's The Irish Republic (1935), Max Caulfield's The Easter Rebellion (1963) and Foy and Barton's The Easter Rising (1999). The idea that she was airbrushed out of both the photograph and the history books is a 21st-century idea and is completely fallacious. Scolaire (talk) 10:50, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Present day

The Present day section has virtually no sourced information on C na mB in the present day. The only cited facts are: (1) that Josephine Hayden was/is a member: this is sourced to an Irish Times story that doesn't mention C na mB, and a book that I am unable to verify (citation added by FDW777 in July 2020); and (2) that it is a proscribed organisation in the UK. I am tagging the section accordingly. Scolaire (talk) 18:02, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

The quote from the White book is In May 1995, six people were arrested in Dublin and charged with possession of weapons. One of them was Josephine Hayden, a member of Cumann na mBan and joint secretary of Republican Sinn Féin. No objection to removal if you deem it necessary. FDW777 (talk) 18:07, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I won't remove it for the moment. I'm thinking of updating the section using the documentary that's linked there. Scolaire (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

I did just have a quick browse of the dissident books I own (Divided We Stand: The Strategy and Psychology of Ireland's Dissident Terrorists by John Horgan, The Origins and Rise of Dissident Irish Republicanism by John F. Morrison, Dissident Irish Republicanism by P.M. Currie and Max Taylor, Legion of the Rearguard by Martyn Frampton, Unfinished Business by Marisa McGlinchey, Spoiling the Peace? by Sophie Whiting). To say there's not much coverage of C na mB would be a significant understatement, particularly in relation to what they've done in what could reasonably be described as "Present day". I think the documentary might be the best option available for expansion. FDW777 (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

Also the afoerementioned White book should have been included in the list of ones I checked. FDW777 (talk) 18:36, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

Done. I'm sure the refs could be better formatted, but I'll leave that for people who know what they're doing. Scolaire (talk) 16:05, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Who is Kathleen Lane-O'Kelly?

Kathleen Lane-O'Kelly (nee Shanahan) was first added as an "other prominent member" by an IP on 10 May 2006. An edit by another IP on 7 April 2008 stated that at its launch in 1914, C na mB was "led by Kathleen Lane-O'Kelley (nee Shannahan)." At some point thereafter she was added to the infobox as founder. I removed her name on 10 March 2017 (I had quite forgotten that I did), but it was added back by Jmdc-chicago on 23 April 2023, obviously when I was not watching the article. Googling "Kathleen Lane-O'Kelly Cumann na mBan" gives plenty of results, but they're all copied from this article, which shows the power of Wikipedia to distort history. Does anybody have any idea where this name came from? Scolaire (talk) 11:18, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

Page 18 of this Military Archives PDF lists a "Kathleen Shanahan Kelly" as a member in Coalisland. And according to Google's scraping this similar document contains the phrase Mrs Kathleen Kelly (dead) née Shanahan, although I'm not sure which page as attempting to automatically find it returns no results so it's probably one of the handwritten pages. So it's possible she might have existed, or it's equally possible someone made her up or garbled some information. Either way, a couple of mentions on historic documents that don't attribute any historical significance to her certainly don't justify the claims made in this article. FDW777 (talk) 14:52, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

There's also various references to a Kathleen Lane (ignoring ones like Never Be at Peace by M. J. Neary · 2016 which probably copy Wikipedia), in particular the Máire Nic Shiubhlaigh book. There's also this on the National Museum of Ireland, clicking on her name brings up a pop-up saying she was in Jacob's during the Rising, but also saying she didn't join Cumann na mBan until 1915 so obviously she wasn't leading in 1914. FDW777 (talk) 16:52, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

You've really done a lot of hard work on this! Fair dues to you. I had found the Museum page during my search; Lane's maiden name is hard to make out (possibly McCarthy), but it's definitely not Shanahan. I think it's fair to assume that Kathleen Lane-O'Kelly (nee Shanahan) didn't exist, and why multiple people made her up must remain a mystery. Scolaire (talk) 10:46, 9 June 2026 (UTC)