Talk:Craig Greenberg

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by RoySmith (talk) 18:16, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

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• ... that Craig Greenberg was shot at by an activist while running for mayor of Louisville, Kentucky? Source:
  • ALT0a: ... that Craig Greenberg was shot at by an activist while running in the 2022 Louisville mayoral election?
• ALT1: ... that Craig Greenberg was shot at while running for mayor of Louisville, Kentucky?
  • ALT1a ... that Craig Greenberg was shot at while running in the 2022 Louisville mayoral election?
  • Reviewed: Third QPQ of nine from Template:Did you know nominations/Arellano Chiefs basketball

Created by Muboshgu (talk). Self-nominated at 18:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - see comments
• Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Muboshgu: Good article. However, the source doesn't seem to say that the perpetrator was an activist. Could you provide a source to prove that? Onegreatjoke (talk) 02:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC) Onegreatjoke (talk) 02:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Onegreatjoke, whoops. That one above may not call him an "activist", but this one does. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Ok. Approving. Onegreatjoke (talk) 02:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Muboshgu and Onegreatjoke: seems like pinning this on Brown as a done deal is a BLP violation, he hasn't been convicted. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 19:21, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

theleekycauldron, he was shot at. Scratching the words "by an activist" should address BLP concerns. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

all clear :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:20, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Dubious

See sources such as here and here which refer to Craig Greenberg as the 51st mayor, not the 59th. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:47, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Greenberg is indeed the 59th if you count the mayors from the list. My guess is that in the sources they left out later nonconsecutive terms from repeats (the most recent being Jerry Abramson, which I counted as 8. Stefen 𝕋ower_{'s got the power!!1!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 03:05, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

While well-intentioned, "if you count the mayors from the list" is WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH, as determining how to deal with the numbering of nonconsecutive terms and such office-holders is subjective. If the City of Louisville deems him to be the Nth mayor, that's what should be listed. Adding an explanatory footnote pointing out how the City's numbering scheme appears to work could be helpful to readers, but listing unofficial ordinals, no matter how "accurate" one may argue they are, isn't appropriate. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

I understand your point, and normally agree with these positions, but he's the 59th mayor of Louisville. That fact just happens to disagree with the sources currently used. Stefen 𝕋ower_{'s got the power!!1!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 03:27, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Obviously, if an official source says something, even if it is obviously inaccurate, we will need to use the official source. Don't think I'm against following our policies and guidelines, but as a human being, I live in truth, and I know the correct number is 59th. Stefen 𝕋ower_{'s got the power!!1!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 03:37, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

While well intentioned, substituting "the way we believe officeholders should be numbered" in place of how the City of Louisville officially numbers their mayors, is not the path we should be going down here. It's fine to point out to readers via an explanatory footnote that the City's numbering scheme doesn't increment for non-consecutive office holders, or appears to have omitted someone or double counted someone, etc. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:47, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Again, I normally appreciate this stance and push it everywhere else as a steward of this Wikipedia, but I can't in good conscience go along with in this specific case. You will not be able to change my mind on this matter. At any rate, please feel free to go ahead and change it to 51 if you would like to per policies/guidelines. I will not revert it. In fact, I didn't change it to 59 in the first place. I just won't make this change myself because doing so goes against my conscience, and the fact I'm a mathematician who can count. :) Stefen 𝕋ower_{'s got the power!!1!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 03:50, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough, and I do appreciate your being clear on your position. The page history shows the edit that changed the ordinal from 51st to 59th was made in July by user @Mad Mismagius:, who is welcome to join in the discussion here. I'm not planning to make any immediate change to the article, and I may not get back to this discussion until tomorrow. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:59, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

I broadly agree with StefenTower's arguments about keeping the numbering as 59th. The difference in numbering is indeed how nonconsecutive terms are counted. Seven mayors have served nonconsecutive terms (one of them thrice), making up the difference between 51 and 59. The "official" count appears to be a more recent styling; this article from the C-J in 1982 rightfully calls Harvey Sloane the 54th mayor for his second term. I think the most appropriate solution is to keep him numbered as the 59th and add an explanatory note. Mad Mismagius (talk) 04:30, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

(Bumping out section) I spent some time going through contemporary reporting via newspapers.com, to see what numbering has been used. At different points in time, different approaches have been used. One approach is to sequentially number the changes in administration, which produces Grover Cleveland-like numbering, under which Craig Greenberg is 59th. Another approach is to just count the number of different people who have served as mayors, in which case Craig Greenberg is 51st. Yet another approach would be to number each administration sequentially, regardless of if the office-holder changes (for example, if one mayor served three consecutive terms, he could be considered something like the 15th/16th/17th mayor), but that idea only appears to have been raised by the city archivist in an article noted below. I went back as far as Kenneth A. Schmied, as that highlighted the inconsistent use of the first two methods noted above:

• Kenneth A. Schmied (sworn in December 1965) was deemed 44th (article).
• Frank W. Burke (sworn in December 1969) was deemed 51st, although "he is actually only the 45th man to fill the office." (article)
• Harvey I. Sloane (sworn in December 1973) was deemed 52nd (article) He was the 46th different person to serve as mayor.
• William B. Stansbury (sworn in December 1977) was deemed 53rd (article) He was the 47th different person to serve as mayor.
• Harvey I. Sloane (sworn in January 1982) was deemed 54th (article)
• Jerry Abramson (sworn in January 1986) wasn't enumerated in newspaper reports, but this article appeared, which explained that Abramson's staff wasn't sure of the numbering, so they consulted with the city archivist. The archivist gave what looks to be a rather noncommittal answer, one part being that Abramson was the 48th different person to serve as mayor. If numbered sequentially, he was 55th.
• David L. Armstrong (sworn in January 1999) wasn't enumerated in newspaper reports. If numbered sequentially, he was 56th; he was also the 49th different person to serve as mayor.
• Jerry Abramson (sworn in January 2003) wasn't enumerated in newspaper reports. If numbered sequentially, he was 57th (having also previously been 55th)
• Greg Fischer (sworn in January 2011) was deemed 50th (as in, the 50th different person to serve as mayor) — see in particular this article, which listed every different mayor the city had to that point. There are indeed 50 names (some don't have pictures), without regard to whether terms were consecutive or non-consecutive. If numbered sequentially, he was 58th
• Craig Greenberg (sworn in January 2023) is deemed 51st on the city's website (here). If numbered sequentially, he is 59th

Have trudged through all of that, I want to take some time to consider what this means for ordinals as displayed on the Wikipedia page about Craig Greenberg, and his predecessors. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:17, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

Update—I made some clarifying edits today:

• In the leads of articles for Jerry Abramson, Greg Fischer, and Craig Greenberg, I made some edits for consistency, such that they are each referred to as "the Nth mayor of the consolidated city-county of 'Louisville Metro' in Kentucky". As most readers are not going to know what "Louisville Metro" refers to (and I'd bet many of them would think it's a general term for the greater Louisville area).
• In article List of mayors of Louisville, Kentucky, I added a section "Numbering", which draws on the content presented above.

The above edits are intended to present facts as we know them from reliable sources. The edits don't address (and were not intended to address) the underlying discrepancy between the louisvilleky.gov website referring to Greenberg as 51st, while his Wikipedia page refers to him as 59th. The former being based on a simple count of the total number of different people who have ever served as mayor, and the latter being consistent with how U.S. Presidents are numbered (cf. Grover Cleveland). I'm still mulling over what to do about that. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:13, 8 November 2025 (UTC)