Talk:County Donegal

Coontie Dinnygal

Does the Ulster Scotched Coontie Dinnygal have any official currency in the Republic? 84.135.250.141 12:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm from Donegal and have never heard it before, anyhow. Dun 13:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean, 'official currency'? It's the Ulster-Scots name for the county, simple as that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 (talk) 12:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't the 'Ulster-Scots name for the county'. Scots in Ulster has a variety of forms, to the degree that we now have 'traditional Scots’ as spoken by native Scots speakers and the synthetic (and linguistically doubtful) version promoted by some learners. I would suggest not using such forms unless they have proper academic grounding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EoinBach (talk • contribs) 01:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Coming from Scotland I was surprised that I had never even heard of Ulster Scots as a language before moving to Beal Fierste but it seems that I speak, read and write fluent Ulster Scots as it is exactly the same as the modern colloquial English spoken in many areas of Central Scotland, most commonly among the working classes, yet I would never consider myself bi-lingual. Rather than classing it as a language, I would say it is more a regional dialect which certainly isn't spoken in Dún na nGall.

Ulster-Scots (also known as Ullans) is most certainly spoken in County Donegal. It is spoken in East Donegal (chiefly in two districts there: the Finn Valley and, especially, The Laggan) and in parts of southern Inishowen. I don't believe that it is a language; rather, it is a dialect of English as spoken in certain parts of Ulster. And I say that as a native of The Laggan in East Donegal, where the dialect is spoken by both Catholics and Protestants. It should also be borne in mind that there is not one, uniform variety of Ulster-Scots. There are several different varieties. The Ulster-Scots as spoken in East Donegal and Inishowen, for example, is quite different from that spoken in County Antrim. Go to Raphoe and St. Johnston, both wee 'toons' in The Laggan, to hear the East Donegal version of the dialect being spoken!

Classic! In fact European linguists came to Northern Ireland in the 1990s to study the supposed newly discovered dialects of Scots language and were able to find not even one speaker of a dialect of Scots , only various dialects of English. Just because some people in East Donegal have not mastered English does not mean that Ulster Scots really exists. The head of the Ulster Scots agency was asked whether he was really serious about his claim that the Scots language was actually spoken in Northern Ireland, he replied: "Does it matter if we're getting the money!" Everybody and his granny know this is not a real form of Scots; it's English with a ghetto accent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.251.235 (talk) 04:29, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

The accent there shares more in common with that of the Outer Hebrides as does the Gaelic spoken. Dún na nGall Gaelic would be instantly more recognisable to a Hebridean than that spoken further South in Ireland. This may be partly due to proximity but can also be contributed to much interaction between the communities, in particular fishermen, over the years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aonghas72 (talk • contribs) 09:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Reopening of debate

Ulster Scots IS NOT an offical language , if you take Ulsters Scots I know of many Chinese people running takeaways in Letterkenny so maybe Mandarin should be included aswell ?

Per WP:IMOS#Other names – "For articles on places on the island of Ireland, show the modern name in English, Irish and, if appropriate, Scots in the infobox if the article has one." (emphasis mine.) Therefore it depends on your interpretation on "appropriate". I would argue it's entirely appropriate to include the Ulster-Scots name on this article, as Donegal has native speakers of the language – the only place in the Republic to do so. Mandarin, as I'm sure you know, is not a langauge native to Co. Donegal. JonC^Talk 09:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

If approtiate , will I place place other languages in the English WIki ? No , nor should an unofficail langauge be used here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:IMOS doesn't specify any need for the language to be "official", only appropriate. Can you point out where you're getting your interpretation from? JonC^Talk 09:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Can you show where its approtriate to use an unofficial language in relation to an article? and, if appropriate, Scots in the info box It states Scots , not Ulster Scots , also states info box' not in the article also . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:40, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Londonderry - This is an example aswell , Irish is an official langauge in NI yet its used in the info box not the article . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Ulster-Scots is a dialect of the Scots language. See the infoboxes of Londonderry, Strabane, Enniskillen, etc. – it just says "Scots". With regards to your second point, WP:IMOS#Other names also states: "For places in the Republic of Ireland, other names should be shown in parentheses immediately after the common name in the lead." JonC^Talk 09:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

With -Examples:

For places in the Republic of Ireland:

Drogheda (Irish: Droichead Átha)[1] ... Wexford (from Old Norse: Veisafjǫrðr meaning "inlet of the mud flat";[1] Irish: Loch Garman, meaning "lake of Garman")[2]...

Does NOT show Scots/Ulster Scots , only Official languages — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londonderry does NOT mention 'Scots: Derrie / Lunnonderrie Irish: Doire / Doire Cholmcille' only in info box , by your example again it does not belong in the article . Please leave such in the info box unless you can prove otherwise . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Just because it's not shown as an example doesn't make it wrong. Notice it says "other names", not "other name". Ulster-Scots isn't spoken natively in Drogheda or Wexford; it is in Donegal. And Londonderry is in Northern Ireland, not the Republic – the manual of style is different when it comes to lead/infobox. JonC^Talk 10:04, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Can you please sign your posts using four tildes (these: ~)? You were left a notice on your talk page. It looks messy. JonC^Talk 10:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

It is considered a dialect only of the State , Irish is considered an official language of the UK so by your examples and views are you going to place the Irish place names in ALL UK articles? If you can show me a road sign or any printed article by a STATE body that represents Donegal that OFFICIALLY uses Scots you could put it forward and with consensus it could be used . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 10:11, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

As I previously stated, IMOS doesn't mention official status anywhere; I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Last time I checked Old Norse wasn't an official language of the Irish state either. Irish Gaelic isn't a native language of anywhere in the UK but Northern Ireland. JonC^Talk 10:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Old norse is used in the lede as a joint translation for the origin of the name . IMOS mentions appropriate how is using a dialect as a language appropriate also as I have stated it can be used in the info box . On Irish being an Official language in NI how come then its not in the lede in articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 10:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Because practice differs between NI- and RoI-related article, as I've stated above. WP:IMOS (it's all there, if you bothered to read it) says all other names should be in the lead for articles about places in the Republic. For places in Northern Ireland, only names from which the English name derives should be. JonC^Talk 10:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

All names so I could call NI , the Teddy bears head , the Occupied counties and other such , which I can reference on the internet if you wish . No a NPOV must be used . Stop pushing a POV . I can show you names of the UK in many languages used in the UK , yet they cant be used . Stop pushing POV . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 10:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Is "the Teddy Bear's Head" the name for Northern Ireland in a local language? If so, please go ahead and add it in. You are ignoring WP:IMOS in order to satisfy your own POV – no basis on which to make changes to an article. JonC^Talk 11:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Just saw this below "I agree with you, but as the 26-county republic is officially called "Ireland" (despite the fact it's clearly not)"by jonchapple in the same irish green as you write jonc . "despite the fact it's clearly not" what is clearly not? I do think there is a major POV being pushed by you on this article , also a quick read over your contribes would see you on more Irish related subjects , I have not checked out the POV you have pushed on these . On an article it is a NPOV that should be used . Show me Scots in Donegal as a current fact . If not leave this page and stop pushing a POV . It is inappropriate to use an unofficial language of a state to descibe or name a part of that state , that is a NPOV . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 10:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's me, well done. Clearly not Ireland – Ireland is an island that the state called Ireland does not occupy the whole of. That's not a POV, it's a fact. I've responded to your other points above. JonC^Talk 10:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Ireland is a state aswell . The European Union is not all of Europe , The USA is not all of the Americas these are a fact too. Ireland is the states official name and that of the island aswell FACTS . What is your point ? Its not NPOV so please leave this discussing . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 11:02, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Correct. The difference being that the official name of the United States isn't "America" and the EU's isn't "Europe". JonC^Talk 11:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you always use USA or sometimes throw america in ? Do you always use EU not Europe ? You got a problem with the name of the state ? And the place names within ? POV stop pushing . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 11:11, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

This isn't what we're supposed to be discussing here. JonC^Talk 11:21, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes its not , but it shows your point of view . And proves you are using POV instead of NPOV . You have not showed any clear usage of Scots in the state or showed why a language the is not recognised in the state is being used . You just keep pushing POV . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 11:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I have cited the Irish manual of style. You have done nothing but offer up your own opinion and fling accusations of non-neutral editing around. I'll ask you one more time – where is the Wikipedia guideline, manual of style or consensus that supports your changes? JonC^Talk 11:30, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

For the infobox it doesn't matter if its used by the state or not. For Northern Ireland settlements and counties the modern Irish is included even though it has no official status in UK law. There is nothing that says that the infobox is for official languages at all. Rather the parameter is for other names (such as local or regional) for it, and Scots (or Ulster-Scots) is a dialect spoken in County Donegal by a few. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Mabuska, can I ask why you've only partially reverted? I think IMOS supports Scots in the lead too – it's different for places in the South. JonC^Talk 11:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Because as far as i'm aware we use official names for places in the lede for NI and the RoI. The infobox is different. If you push to have Scots versions of places in the RoI included in the lede then you will undue the long, hard work that went into agreeing an IMoS for the use of Irish in the lede of NI settlement articles. Wikipedia:IMOS#Other_names allows for its inclusion in the infobox. That is all that is needed. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:43, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not "pushing" for anything other than the restoration of the way it's sat for quite a while with no problems. Where else would I want Scots names? It's not spoken anywhere else in the Republic. JonC^Talk 11:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, IMOS makes it clear that on NI articles only the foreign name from which the English is derived should be in the lead, the rest go in the infobox. It states that for the ROI all other names should also be in the lead. JonC^Talk 11:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

You would be correct Jonchapple. Thus it should also be included in the lede then according to IMoS. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

If you agree that it's supported by IMoS, could you revert to the stable version? I think I'd be breaking 3RR, although I'm not sure if it would be classed as reverting vandalism. JonC^Talk 12:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

But Irish is spoken in NI . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 11:51, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

And? It's not official so we don't include it in the lede (only a deriviation if applicable), but we include it in the infobox per Wikipedia:IMOS#Other_names. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Agreed and so it should be recipricated . The Scots names for the county could be mentioned in the "Culture" section this would help highlight the use of Scots in a small degree in the county . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 12:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

If it should be reciprotated then that means you are saying the Scots schould also be in the infobox then? Regardless Scots is valid for the lede and infobox in this article per Wikipedia:IMOS#Other names. Please abide by the guidelines. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi Mabuska, JobC - you're misinterpreting the IMOS I think. The first line says that Scot goes in the infobox for all place names in the island of Ireland. It then goes on to explain how to write the lede, which is different for the Republic than the North. Reading he statement other names should be shown in parentheses immediately after the common name in the lead should be interpreted in the context of the very first sentence, and since some place names in Ireland are in English, the "other name" to be shown in parentheses is the Irish name, and vice versa. It doesn't mean that a Scots varient should also be included in parentheses. --HighKing (talk) 13:02, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi Highking – how did you come to that inclusion? To me the fact that it says "other names", with an "s", would indicate that there's more to it than just Irish and English. Surely if it was just an English name followed by a Gaelic one or vice-versa, we'd have "the other name" or something similar. JonC^Talk 13:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

It says "other names" because some places actually have more than one name. For example, see Dingle which has 2 valid names in Irish. --HighKing (talk) 13:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

You may well be right, but how can you be so sure? It doesn't specify. As Mabuska says below, I don't think IMoS was written with Scots in mind and doesn't specifically cater for or prohibit against its use in any way apart from with Northern Irish articles. I'm happy to keep the article as it is, but—in my interpretation at least—it wasn't in violation of IMoS before our IP-hopping friend here kicked off earlier today. JonC^Talk 18:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Other names could refer to different spellings of the same place in the same language. Scots wasn't originally foreseen as an issue i think when we were discussing how to deal with place names especially as when last discussed we focused mostly on Northern Ireland places. Whilst HighKing's view is based on their personal interpretation of the IMOS (aren't all of ours i guess), the IMOS by its wording qualifies the Scots in the lede. However personally i think it makes more sense to just follow the opening line of WP:IMOS#Other names and have it in the infobox. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I have to disagree with some of your logic. The IMOS by its wording specifically disqualifies Scots from the lede. If you put Scots in the lede, you've gone against the opening line of WP:IMOS#Other names. Also, use of the plural term "other names" has been explained. Still, at least the issue has been resolved. --HighKing (talk) 13:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I was essentially backing your position in the end HighKing. The dispute over the lede was never with me anyways. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

A couple of thimgs have came to light here about JonChapple and Mabuska . JonChapple or JonC pushes an anti-Irish view , calling Irish a foreign language "Also, IMOS makes it clear that on NI articles only the foreign name from which the English is derived should be in the lead" , POV pushing . Mabuska there is no UK law , its devovled and wether you like it or not Irish is recognised as a official language in NI as a minority language -The British government has ratified the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages in respect to Irish in Northern Ireland. The Education (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 states: "It shall be the duty of the Department (of Education) to encourage and facilitate the development of Irish-medium education." The two of you should refrain from pushing your POV . Mabuska stop trying to be a one person judge and jury on Irish issues . Your POV is very clear in this case where you decided that Scots should be included against IMOS , as was state above , in the info box . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.231.159 (talk) 18:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't even know why I'm wasting my breath, but you need to stop flinging accusations around and indulging in personal attacks. This is the English Wikipedia, so Irish/Gaelic is a foreign language. So is Scots. And Urdu. And Albanian. And every other language that isn't English. Give it a rest. JonC^Talk 18:54, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

No Jon , Irish is a referral language on English wiki , it is native to NI not foreign , it is an official langauge of NI , you studied history at Exeter thaught you would have learned that . Stop POV pushing . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.73.147 (talk) 18:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you do any other tricks, or just the "POV pusher" one? JonC^Talk 19:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Mabuska how come two Editors broke the 3RR rule yet you only issued ONE warning ? Bias ? Proves a point about yourself . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.210.86 (talk) 10:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I didn't break 3RR. Check the page history. JonC^Talk 11:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you guys want to maybe get a room somewhere? This issue is closed. Don't feed the trolls. --HighKing (talk) 11:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

09:32, 19 September 2011 Jonchapple(talk | contribs) (43,190 bytes) (I'll only say this one more time before requesting admin intervention – you must discuss controversial changes. This is the stable version, and it'll remain this way til consensus for your changes is reached. Please discuss before reverting again)09:28, 19 September 2011 Jonchapple(talk | contribs) (43,190 bytes) (Undid revision 451295627 by 109.77.46.142 (talk) take it to talk)09:17, 19 September 2011 Jonchapple(talk | contribs) (43,190 bytes) (Undid revision 451294845 by 109.77.46.142 (talk) This is the stable version. Please don't make the changes until consensus is reached) (undo) , thats 3 .With respect to yourself Highking , and all other wiki editors the rules should be applied without bias and applied to all . Mabuska singled out the IP editor , left JonC alone .Why was this ? And what gain was there to such an action ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.34.103 (talk)

Simple. You made five reverts in under 12 hours! Jonchapple made 3. He didn't actually violate 3RR, whereas you did. It really is that simple. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:15, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Simple ? No , Mabuska 4 reverts were made , even if three of you ,yourself Jon and Denis , kept reverting to avoid the 3RR rule, basically bullying a point across , which in the end was proved wrong . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.235.61 (talk) 18:30, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The issue of the Ulster Scots name for our county is going to have to be addressed. Each Wikipedia article for each county in Northern Ireland has the Ulster Scots name for that particular county attached. Even the Wikipedia article for Fermanagh has the Ulster Scots name for that county attached to it, even though very little Ulster Scots is actually spoken in County Fermanagh.

I am aged in my 40s, and I was born and raised here in St. Johnston, a wee village here in the Laggan district in East Donegal. Ulster Scots is widely spoken here in East Donegal. Indeed, tens of thousands of us Donegal 'wans' speak some sort of Ulster Scots every time we speak. Every time us Donegal folk say words like 'aye', 'wains', 'a wee burn' (meaning a stream or small river), 'naw', 'wee', etc., we are speaking Ulster Scots. Vastly more of us Donegal folk use Ulster Scots words on a daily basis than ever speak Irish. This reality should be reflected in the Wikipedia article about County Donegal. And here in East Donegal, our Ulster Scots name for 'oor ane coonty' (our own county) is 'Coonty Dunnygaal'. That's the actual reality here in East Donegal. Laggan Boy (talk) 08:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

And, by the way, it should be noted that the Ulster Scots name for County Donegal was actually attached to this Wikipedia article for many, many years. It was only relatively recently that someone decided to remove it. The Ulster Scots name should be restored to this article as it would reflect the reality of how we speak in County Donegal, especially how we speak here in the rural parts of East Donegal. Laggan Boy (talk) 08:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

So far, you did not provide any sources conform WP:V. Just a claim "I am a local guy so I know". Alas, that falls foul of No Original Research. The Banner talk 11:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Strange I missed this debate before. Ulster Scots definitely has long usage in parts of Donegal. The Government of Ireland site “Ask about Ireland” covers this, for example (https://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/heritage-towns/the-heritage-towns-of-don/raphoe/ulster-scots-the-language/). SeoR (talk) 17:40, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

And further to that, I see notes such as: “While broad Ulster-Scots is only spoken in rural communities, especially in Donegal's Laggan district, everyone in Ulster uses some of its words and phrases in everyday speech (example: the word "wee" is used to mean many things, from a term of endearment, to a description of small size).“

and: “In 2005, the Taobh Tire project of Donegal County Library services collaborated with the young people of the Laggan area (St Johnston and Carrigans) in researching and collating an Ulster-Scots dictionary.” SeoR (talk) 17:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

So, instead of replies like this (see summery), there are decent sources available to satisfy my request for sources? The Banner talk 18:14, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Begging your pardon, 'The Banner', but a 'higher standard' seems to be demanded in relation to the Ulster Scots name for County Donegal compared to the Ulster Scots names for most of the other Ulster counties. Very few of the other Ulster counties have references to back up the Ulster Scots names in their Wikipedia articles. Yet, probably quite rightly, you 'demand' such references for the County Donegal Wikipedia article. What about the other Wikipedia articles about the other Ulster counties? Laggan Boy (talk) 14:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)