Talk:Cochin Jews

Similarities and connections between Cochin Jews and Kerala Syrian Christians

Kerala Syrian Christian copper plates with inscriptions in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew (849 and c. 883 AD) (Photograph)

Several scholars of Jewish history have noted similarities and connections between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. Here are a few quotations from some of these scholars:

1) "There is at least one genre of Knanaya literature that exists also in the Jewish Malayalam corpus, the pallippattu, 'Synagogue song'." (Quote from - page 92 - Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)

Note: The Malayalam term "Palli" is used to refer to the Syrian Christian "church" and also the Cochin Jewish "synagogue". Also note that the term ‘Syrian Christian’ was coined by the British. Historically, before the arrival of the British to India, the Cochin Jews were called ‘Malabar Juda Mappila’ and the so called Syrian Christians were called ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’. The term Mappila as used in Malayalam means ‘of West Asian Semitic descent’. It is better to use the term ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’ as this could reduce a lot of the confusion that arise from using the term ‘Syrian Christian.’

2) "Jussay and Weil compare some songs with the wedding songs of Knanaya Christians as suggestive of historic cultural relations between the two communities. (759) Johnson, with Daniel as her guidance in the language of the corpus, takes the songs as expressions of the socio-religious identity and ideology of Jewish women in Kerala. (760)” (Quote from – page 389 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)

(Also refer to - Weil, Shalva J. (1982). "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cnanite Christian and the Cochin Jews of Kerela," Contributions to Indian Sociology 16: 175-196. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/006996678201600202 )

3) "There are genres of narrative songs about Biblical characters similar to the formulaic songs in the anthology of Knanaya Christian songs – the women's vattamkali pattu and the men's cintu. (786) • The synagogue motif suggests a linkage with the Knanaya Christians. It seems to be adopted into the Jewish Malayalam corpus from the Knanaya songs, where it stands for a more mature genre." (Quote from – page 402 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)

4) "Similarities between the rites and customs of the Syrian Christians (of Kerala) and the Jews of Kerala reflect a possible common origin in the ancient Middle East, and serve as heuristic evidence in support of the historical claims of both communities." (Quote from – page 88 – Ritual and Music in South India: Syrian Christian Liturgical Music in Kerala. Author(s): Israel J. Ross. Source: Asian Music, Vol. 11, No. 1 (1979), pp. 80-98. http://www.syriacstudies.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Syrian-music-in-kerala.pdf)

5) In the paper ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue (1984), the Cochin Jewish writers Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:

"...the Syrian Christian (copper) plates with the signature of four Jewish witnesses in Judeo - Persian, which incidentally is the second oldest inscription in Judeo- Persian in the world, are a few of the ancient relics that can still be seen to remind one of the glorious past of this forgotten outpost of the Jewish world. " (Page 2 Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).

6) In another quote from their text the authors Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:

"There are at least a few instances of direct evidence of a Jewish settlement on the South - West Coast of India during the first century of the Christian era. In a wedding song of the ancient Christians of Malabar, mention is made of one Habban, a Jewish merchant, who was sent by a Royal decree to fetch a man who would build a temple more beautiful than the one King Solomon had built in Palestine. Habban accompanied by St. Thomas arrived in Cranganore in 55 A. D., St. Thomas was welcomed by a Jewish flute girl. He stayed in the Jewish quarter of the town and some Jews are said to have been baptized by him in Cranganore." (Page 3 – Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).

Kerala Syrian Christian copper plates with inscriptions in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew (849 and c. 883 AD) (Inscriptions)

Additional note: The copper plates of privileges granted to the Cochin Jews and the Syrian Christians of Kerala by an ancient King of Kerala are similar with 72 privileges engraved on these copper plates. It is important to note that the copper plates in possession with the Cochin Jewish synagogue is in old Malayalam script (Vattezhuthu), while the Kollam (Quilon) copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians is in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew. Ironically, it is the Hebrew script on the Kollam copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malabar Nasranis) that is often taken as conclusive evidence for the earliest presence of Jews in Kerala and India.

“The Kollam copper-plates inscription (849 ce) in Old Malayalam is the earliest evidence of Jews reaching the region.9” (page 55 - Gamliel, O. (2018) Back from Shingly: revisiting the pre-modern history of Jews ... Indian Economic and Social History Review, 55(1), pp. 53-76.)

• The observations across several scholarly papers on Kerala Jewish history, support an ancient Jewish heritage for both Knanaya and the other Syrian Christians of Kerala. Scholars of Jewish history have acknowledged cultural similarities and strong links between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. This needs to be mentioned in the articles of these communities. Gafeg (talk) 00:37, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Remove Christian speculation

@Jossyys: The section "Saint Thomas, an Aramaic-speaking[26] Jew from the Galilee region of Israel and one of the disciples of Jesus, is believed to have come to Southern India[27] in the 1st century, in search of the Jewish community there.[28][29] It is possible that the Jews who became Christians at that time were absorbed by what became the Nasrani Community in Kerala.[28]" this just pure Christian speculation and should be removed. Furthermore Slapak does not state anything to support this. YaLindaHadad (talk) 15:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: The content is supported by multiple reliable sources. So it should stay there. Jossyys (talk) 16:32, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: "multiple reliable sources" such as? At best it is one source and it is a Christian source. YaLindaHadad (talk) 18:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no historical evidence for the conversion of Cochin Jews. You can reference 'The Jews of India: A Story of Three Communities', does not say that any were converted. YaLindaHadad (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Christian source or Jewish source does not matter when that source is a reliable one. For your information, Christianity was originally a Jewish movement, and the early Christians were mostly Jews. Aramaic was the spoken language of the Jews during that period. In fact, Aramaic had replaced Hebrew as the language of the Jews as early as the 6th century BCE. Saint Thomas and Cochin Jews spoke the same language Aramaic. Saint Thomas Christians still use a form of Aramaic called Syriac as one of the liturgical languages. Jossyys (talk) 00:19, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: @LightHouse349: @Davidbena: This has nothing to do with Cochin Jews. Cochin Jews never spoke Aramaic. The liturgical langauge was Hebrew as seen in the Kochangadi Synagogue and the spoken language was Judeo-Malayalam a dialect of Malayalam with Hebrew influence. There is absolutely no proof or records on the conversion of Cochin Jews to any other religion. The source you referenced does not prove this. Many groups speculate on their links to Jews due to known similarities in some the practices of the Abrahamic religions. However this does not a connection to Cochin Jews. YaLindaHadad (talk) 19:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad:, while I edited this article a few years back, I am by no means an expert on Cochin Jews, and would know absolutely nothing about their origins. What I added to this article at the time was, I believe, well-sourced, although it spoke nothing about so-called Christian influences with the community.Davidbena (talk) 21:15, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Your argument is wrong. Aramaic was the language of the Jews in Israel, the Middle East and in Europe from the 6th century BC and afterward until the Muslim conquests of the 7th century AD ,. The majority of the Cochin Jews had come to South India from the Middle East during that period. Jossyys (talk) 23:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: Reference "The Jews of India: A story of three communities" page 29 and 30. Clearly states Cochin Jews where versed in Hebrew. YaLindaHadad (talk) 14:02, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Aramaic was the spoken language of the Jews for a certain period of time in history, as mentioned above. Cochin Jews spoke Aramaic in the 1st century because it was the spoken language of the Jews at that time. Jossyys (talk) 15:32, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: Once again no sources. I clearly listed mine. YaLindaHadad (talk) 15:36, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Please check the references added above, 1 and 2. Jossyys (talk) 15:51, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: Does not reference Cochin Jews. YaLindaHadad (talk) 14:53, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Please understand the difference between spoken language and liturgy. Slapak talks about liturgy in the 17th-19th century period (page 29 and 30). I am talking about the spoken language in the 1st century period. Jossyys (talk) 16:16, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: Slapak never states that the Cochin Jews converted to any religion. YaLindaHadad (talk) 13:08, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: The content is supported by four references, and Slapak's book is only one of them. Jossyys (talk) 15:31, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: No it is not. Slapak does not state that they converted. YaLindaHadad (talk) 13:56, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: My statement above means that the content does not entirely depend on Slapak's book; there are other references. Jossyys (talk) 02:05, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: What other references? YaLindaHadad (talk) 13:44, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: Another reference: ... consolidating all the available records states that, after forming, on the west coast, several congregations out of Jews and Dravidi people, Apostle St. Thomas reached Meliapore (Mylapore-Madras). Jossyys (talk) 01:04, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Another reference is here . Jossyys (talk) 16:22, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jossyys: The first is not a credible source to begin with. Additionally it states Mylapore-Madras an area in Tamil Nadu and makes no reference to Cochin Jews. YaLindaHadad (talk) 14:40, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: You are wrong.

• First reference: Here "west coast" means Kerala. Cochin is situated on the west coast in southern India.
• Second reference: "...came to Musiris (Cranganore in Kerala) in 52 AD. There he made his first conversions - of Hindus as well as long-settled Jews - at Palayoor. Thereafter he travelled down the Malabar Coast, making conversions in several areas and establishing at least seven churches, before crossing to the Coromandel Coast. He eventually reached Mylapore."

If you have not read it, please click the Search button there. Jossyys (talk) 03:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Arabs not zamorin (king of Calicut) attacked jews

It was Arabs and not zamorin of Calicut attacked Jews in Kodungallore. ref : mathrubhumi weekly Feb 13 2017. 50.186.129.253 (talk) 00:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)