Talk:Cleon

Aristophanes and Thucydides on Cleon

I've heard by a well known Italian satirist, Daniele Luttazzi, that Aristophanes was quite right on Cleon: that would make this section totally wrong. I'm gonna move it to the talk page if no source is provided (section was inserted with the article creation).--BMF81 21:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

When did an Italian satirist become an authority on ancient Athenian politicians? You need better reason than that to argue against the position in the article (unless Luttazzi has a secret life as a published ancient historian). On the one hand, it is correct to note that our view of Cleon is shaped by Aristophanes and Thucydides. On the other hand, the article should provide some documentation that backs up the revisionist view. But I don't think the paragraph should be removed on the satirist's authority alone.--Iacobus 05:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

There is some controversy regarding the assessment of his figure; in particular I remember that the Italian historian Luciano Canfora wrote a book on Thucydides "one lie", that would be his maliciously slandering Cleon in the battle of Sphacteria.--Aldux 13:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason to accuse Thucydides of being partial. I have read his whole book. And it reads like a modern book, written by a thorough and objective person. He is not partial to Sparta, like later authors said; he is very cautious on politics, many times even cynical; he is surely not a believer in the kindness and goodness of any regime... Thucydides seems concerned, even obsessed, with objectivity. When he gives his opinion -- which, in the case of Cleon, is very unfavorable -- he backs it up with a thorough description of his speeches and his actions. On the other hand, his description of aristocrats and Sparta is not laudatory; the many errors of Sparta in the battle of Pylos are discussed at length. Brasidas, probably the only hero in the whole book, is not a typical Spartan: he defends democracies pillaged by Athens, he even speaks very well (in public) for a Spartan.

Also, the wikipedia text is misleading on another fact. The death of Cleon and Brasidas did not end the Pelloponesian war, as is suggested here; a cold war followed the armistice of Nicias. A new Athenian warmonger, Alcibiades, restarted the conflict a few years later; the war zone was enlarged to Sicilly, and the conflict grew fiercer than ever.

Cleon's carreer can be interpreted, in itself, as an implicit criticism of democracy, so maybe that is the reason why some modern authors try feverishly to rehabilitate him. Perhaps some of them have not even read Thucydides. Cleon's actions, as narrated in "History of the Peloponnesian War", are an extreme example of the corruption of democracy by demagogy and populism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.136.196.105 (talk) 09:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I was mildly amused to see you laud Thucydides' treatment of Brasidas as "probably the only hero in the whole book". That's ironic, given that Brasidas' actions at Amphipolis were what got Thucydides sentenced to exile! Noel (talk) 00:50, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

Thucydides is partial. This is the communis opinio.

“ Thucydides the totally dispassionate, scientific historian has been superseded in the communis opinio by Thucydides the engaged Athenian and the artful reporter ... Thucydides reports in a matter-of-fact section of narrative that he was an Athenian general in 424/3 and did not return from Thasos in time to prevent Amphipolis from going over to the Spartan Brasidas, but was in time to keep Eïon in Athenian hands (4.105–106); as a result of that he was exiled, returning to Athens under the amnesty of 404 (5.26.5); it is often and plausibly thought, but is not attested, that the man responsible for his exile was Cleon... Rhodes "Brill's Companion to Thucydides" in Thucydides and Athenian History (2006) pp 523–24. ”

“ Cleon seemed inferior to his predecessors (being a member of the merchant class which wanted radical democracy) but Cleon also had led the way in pronouncing Thucydides’s condemnation to exile after the latter had failed to save Amphipolis from the Spartan Brasidas. That is what Marcellinus's Life of Thucydides declares, and although certainty eludes us it does seem probable that this is a correct explanation. Certainly Thucydides loathes Cleon, with an aversion that was unusual for him and unfair, and one of the causes is surely that he held Cleon largely responsible for his banishment. Grant Greek and Roman historians (1995) pp 59–60. ”

Opinions like these exemplify the problems with reading just primary sources and thinking that is enough. Ifly6 (talk) 03:16, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Seriously?

I saw this For the literature on Cleon see... [some book]... 1892 [and] ...[some other book] 1904. That one definitely needs some updating. Ifly6 (talk) 02:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: History of Ancient Greece

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 April 2025 and 9 June 2025. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): VenerableTurtle (article contribs). Peer reviewers: PearlCosteld, Bronsok.

— Assignment last updated by Johnstoncl (talk) 16:39, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

@VenerableTurtle: Hello there and welcome to Wikipedia. I saw that you were assigned this page. I was about to get started on a rewrite but if you are assigned this page, I can say that it really does need work.

• If you have any questions at all – such as the style of contributions (such as lower case section headings), what citations are expected in your contributions, technical matters like how to cite with {{sfn}} or other templates, or anything at all – I would be happy to answer them.
• I recently added some sources to the page which are currently unused but would be of substantial value to the article. You should have access to a decent number of them via university. Reading those sources would be of substantial value for developing this article!
• I have some thoughts on immediate things to do with the article before us right now, if you want any pointers on how to get started.

I can't say I know anything at all as to your education foundation course assignment, or how it might accord (or not) with what I've written above. I hope you have a enjoyable time on Wikipedia and stay around! Ifly6 (talk) 05:38, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

@VenerableTurtle, PearlCosteld, and Bronsok: I don't want to overly intervene in your feedback. But I want to note that the existence of source references is not sufficient under Wikipedia guidelines as a reason to say that the sourcing is good. First, I added the source references shortly prior to your assignments in this edit; the mere presence of sources means nothing without an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution (WP:BURDEN). Ifly6 (talk) 19:44, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Broken reference

There's a reference to:

Kagan, Duncan (1974). The Archidamian War

which is almost certainly to Donald Kagan, not 'Duncan' (Donald Kagan seems to have a book of that title, that year), but I don't at the moment have access to a copy of 'The Archidamian War', to check. Maybe someone else can? Noel (talk) 06:07, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

My copy of Archidamian War arrived, and indeed on the cited page, it covers that topic. I have fixed the ref. Noel (talk) 00:50, 6 April 2026 (UTC)